ANOTHER SWAY BAR QUESTION

I HAD A EMPI(#9600 3/4") FRONT SWAY BAR INSTALLED IN MY 08 VS built ON A 70 VW PAN IT WAS INSTALLED CORRECTLY WITH THE FRONT BEND GOING UP THE PROBLEM IS I ONLY HAVE 4" OF CLEARENCE TO THE GROUND ON MY FIRST RIDE I SCRAPED THE BAR ON BUMPS TWICE I HAD THE BAR REMOVED TODAY FOR SAFETY. WHAT CAN I DO?? I WOULD LIKE A STIFFER FRONT END FOR AUTO CROSS RACING ALSO I HAD EMPI CAMBER COMPENSATOR INSTALLED ON THE REAR THAT HAS 5" OF CLEARENCE MY CAR HAS NOT BEEN LOWERED ANY IDEAS WOULD BE APPRECIATED

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C26%2D413%2D151

They also offer a CSP version for around $250.
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C31%2D498%2D001%2D111A

I run the Empi ones with a stock bar. Works fine.

Dan--what a pain, I know. That Empi sway bar has 4 different part numbers; 9600, 9596, 9595, 9594. Mine was $73.00 and makes my VS drive like it was on rails.

My car is on a 1968 pan. The page of instructions shows it installed
with the bend going up, like you mentioned but the only way mine would fit was to install it with the sway bar going down, or below the clamps.

My clearance is 4 1/2" and it's never scraped even once. Must be a lot of difference between 4" and 4 1/2".

Sorry I can't offer a solution ---just some data.

Gordon is good on these sway bars and I'd email him if he doesn't chime in. Good luck and I hope you solve this with not to much PITA.

Are you bottoming out going over bumps? Is the front torsion leaf bundle too soft? Have any leafs been removed in the interest of a softer ride?

Don't confuse front ride height with front end stiffness.

JACK I HAVE SEVERAL OF YOUR PREVIOUS POSTS SAVED IN MY FAVORATES ONE OF WHICH SAYS THE CLEARENCE FROM THE FRONT SWAY BAR TO THE GROUND IS 6"??? I ALSO TALKED WITH KIRK AT VINTAGE HE INSTALLS THE EMPI 3/8" UPSIDE DOWN AND IT FITS GREAT??? I CAN SEE MYSELF ORDERING MANY DIFFERENT SWAY BARS AND END UP WITH AN INVENTORY I DONT WANT. I HAVE TALKED WITH SEVERAL VW SUPPLY HOUSES NOBODY IS FAMILAR ENOUGH WITH THESE CARS TO MAKE A POSITIVE RECOMENDATION ON A SWAY BAR THE SEARCH CONTINUES THANKS DAN

DAVID I HAVE A VINTAGE FACTORY BUILT CAR THAT TO MY KNOWLEDGE HAS NOT BEEN ADJUSTED IN ANYWAY THANKS DAN

Have 3/4" front sway from Eyeball Engineering. Just under 5". Check shops under site Forum. No scrapes, etc.

Dan--interesting that Kirk installs the sway bar "upside down"---to me that was really the only way it would fit at all. Hold it up to your car upside down and see how it looks.

On my post saying my clearance was 6" ----well it was in the past, 2 years ago when I first installed it. Now it's really 4 1/2" and the reason for that is that after installing my A-1 Sidewinder I had to raise the rear of the car for clearance and I guress that causwed the front to be lowered some. I was surprised to realize that but shouldn't have been, I guess. Like a see saw I guess. For you though, it should be good news that it doesn't scrape at 4 1/2 ".

Let us know how you make out!

Does any one know what the performance difference is between a rear Swaybar and a Camber Compensator? Basicly the same thing?

Jay

Dan -

I have a '95 Vintage Speedster that I've lowered and installed sway bars in front and back. i have about 6 inches clearance in the front and its not really an issue unless I approach an obstacle too fast.

Also note that I modified the front bumper brackets with a notch, to accommodate the proper installation of my front sway bar. here are a few pics for visual reference. Hope this helps...

Lowered VS throwing out the vibes...



Lowered VS shredding corners climbing Mt. Palomar...



Front bumper brackets 'notched' for sway bar installation...



Rear sway bar...

Sway bars and camber compensators are both used to improve stability in cornering, as the laws of physics apply force to the outside wheels. Generally speaking, later model VW's, 69 and newer, use IRS rear axles, while the earlier models were swing axles. Sway bars are used to transfer those lateral forces even over both drive wheels in an IRS setup. A camber compensator, originally invented by Joe Vittone at EMPI, is used to prevent wheel tuck on the inside wheel on a swing axle in a corner.

IRS was viewed as the next generation in VW suspension development, and are favored by auto cross and performance drivers using a VW pan. Swing axles are heavier, and are still favored by some VW drag folks.

In an S turn, with a swing axle, if the inside wheel tucked, i.e., made little or no contact with the ground, and then the wheel was turned hard the other way to follow the S turn, the car could turn turtle when the wheel made contact again. Corvairs with swing axles suffered the same malady.

Both of these after market devices are aimed at keeping the rubber side down by keeping the axle and wheels level by reducing body roll. Both have applications for different axle setups, but they are NOT interchangeable. A sway bar is only for IRS, a camber compensator is only for swing axle. I am by no means an expert, so others with more knowledge may chime in.

Thanks Jim!

I just assumed that Musbjim's car was a swing axle as it is a Vintage and I know that Kirk does not like using IRS in his cars.

Jay

Mine is in fact a swing axle. Hope all is well with you, Jay, and that you're still enjoying your Speedy!

Hey Jim, how have you been?

The car is great! Any excuse to take it out for a spin. We've had it for 4 months and just turned 4500 miles.

We have a neighbor who has a Dodge Solctice. We haven't seen it around much lately. Asked if he sold it....no he says it's parked because a car show is coming up in July and there is an award for the newest car with the least miles. I had to tell him we were going for the award for newest car with the most miles (no way we'll beat Jack)...just don't see the point in parking your car while the sun is shining.

Anyway... have been making lots of small changes to the car, I'm getting ready to change out the headlight buckets for a higher quality pair......She's our baby she deserves them

Jay

Dodge had a "Deamon" but Pontiac had a Solstice

My mistake

I guess its Pontiac and Saturn that made that body style. Looks good but got lousy reviews.

I don't know why I always want to say it was made by Dodge...crossed wire some where.

Jay

The camber compensator was introduced by Porsche in the 1960 Super 90 & was optional on the Supers and Normals. With this, softer 23mm rear torsions (vs. 24mm stock) were installed. The purpose of the compensator was to add back spring rate in jounce but not roll. The trick was the softer torsions which reduced rear roll stiffness (of which the Swing Axle has has a bunch already due to its geometry). This reduced oversteer, and if used with a larger front bar to add back overall roll stiffness, resulted in a more neutral handling car. Similarly, a Z bar adds spring in jounce but not roll, & should also be used with softer rear springs and bigger front sway bar. Zero roll rear suspensions as seen on Formula Vee racers are also focused on minimizing rear roll stiffness.
The reduction in tuck under is a happy side effect of these designs.

I just installed the camber compensator and it really is noticeable on fast curves! I am very pleased.

Cole

The primary purpose of a CAMBER compensator - is to control camber!

The purpose of a anti-roll bar is to reduce body roll in corners.

On swing axle cars, the rear swing axle wants to rotate from the inboard u-joint. Under severe body roll, the outboard axle tends to tuck under and remove most of the tire tread from the road. This leads to a severe lack of traction and a rear end skid. Under severe cornering, if during a skid, your tire strikes an object like a rut in the road or a curb, it can cause a vehicle to overturn.

This is common to all swing axle vehicles including (famously) pre-65 Corvairs, some Pontiac Tempests, early Mercedes, Volkswagons and many others. A cambr compensator simple ties the left and right wheels together with a transverse leaf spring to limit their potential "tuck under". And YES, it does act sorta like an anti-roll bar when cornering.

The general rule for swing axle cars is to NEVER put on a front anti-roll bar unless you first have a camber compensator on the rear.

Is the opposite true? Never put a camber compensator on unless you also install a front sway bar?

no its not true, the rear with the swing axle is more important to do than the fgront sway bar. bill

I haven't yet figured out how to fit a front sway bar on my car, but I absolutely believe in the camber compensator. The car corners very flat and sticks much better than I expected it too. I'm really quite happy with the handling so far, as I have yet to see any tail-happy drama.

I HAD MY SWAY BAR REINSTALLED ON A LIFT NOT USING RAMPS IT WENT ON EASIER AND SEEMS TO FIT BETTER I NOW HAVE 4.25" OF CLEARENCE. IAM HOPING THE SWAY BAR AND THE CAMBER COMPENSATOR WILL IMPROVE MY PERFORMANCE IN AUTO CROSS RACING. I RACE IN THE NOVICE DIVISION AGAINST 350 HP PORSCHES. MY RESULTS THUS FAR ARE POOR. THE LONGER AND FASTER THE COURSE THE FARTHER IN LAST PLACE IAM; BUT IAM HAVING A LOT OF FUN!!! SEE YA

Dan - Way to represent at the autocross. Its hard to beat the thrill of auto-X!

Lone 356 Speedster entered at the Porsche Auto-X. Great course layed out on the flight-line of the El Toro Marine Corps Air Station base. Course distance was about 1 mile broken up into great sweeping curves, hairpins, decreasing radius turns and short straightaways (maybe hit 3rd gear for short distance). Very Cool!






El Guapo chillaxing at the Auto-X...

Question for those of you autocrossing:
could you detail what suspension set-ups you guys are using? Sway bar diameter/manufacturer, shocks, alignment settings, etc.

JIM YOU ARE RIGHT AUTO CROSS IS VERY COOL!!! I GET A LITTLE BETTER WITH EACH RACE

ROB I HAVE 3/4" EMPI FRONT SWAY BAR AND EMPI CAMBER COMPENSATOR STANDARD VINTAGE SUSPENSION I THINK WITH A TIRE CHANGE I WOULD SEE THE MOST IMPROVEMENT

do you know what shocks you have?

Dan,

I have a 3/4" Empi anti-sway bar in my stock height 2004 Vintage and have no clearance problems what so ever. I've attached a couple of photos of the installation. I do recall reading that some folks had to modify their frames to get them to fit but I installed mine without modification.


Good Luck, Rich

I've always wondered why Jim had to do that notching of his bumper bracket to get his sway bar installed. It looks like his bar has a more radical angle to it than most. Here is Rich's bar (top) and Jim's bar (bottom)

Jim has a different bar, one for lowered VWs.

Mine is like the upper photo.

When the car is jacked up with the wheels hanging down the bar does contact the bumper brackets. I am assuming this kind of contact wouldn't happen much on the road unless the car goes airborne.

What Michael just said x2.

ROB NO IDEA WHAT SHOCKS. WITH THE SWAY BAR AS JACK CROSBY SAYS IT CORNERS LIKE ITS ON RAILROAD TRACKS

Rich, where are the bushings that keep it located to the chassis itself?? Seems like the bar would move a lot without the 2 bushings holding it to the chassis....

Rich's version does not attach to the chassis/frame/torsion tubes. It attaches just to the trailing arms and it floats.

on vw they do not attach to the chassis, that must be why you can run a 3/4 where on other light cars that would be too stiff. bill

Interestingly, on the pre-A Porsche 356, which was over 80% VW underneath, they had a front sway bar attached to the lower shock mounts with "dog bone" links and the bar attached to the lower torsion tube, just like on a lot of cars around today.

Aircooled.net has a interesting adjustable front swaybar. Check it out. Alan

http://www.aircooled.net/new-bin/viewproductdetail.php?keyword2=SSS0002&cartid=0823201172877503

K W, you can only mount a sway bar that way on a trailing arm suspension. The trailing arm movement closely matches the sway bar arm rotation so things work ok. Plus, it saves a little bit of money on the link hardware and VW's were designed to be cheap.

Bill, the sway bars are generally stiffer because of the desire for higher understeer to counter the oversteer tendencies of the rear weight bias/rear suspension setup. Most front engine lightweight cars tend to understeer and stiff front swaybars would only make it worse.