Cryo treatments for engine parts

I've been reading again. and that always spells trouble. I read a article about a 1969 912p that a fellow had two bad builds and finally sending his car to Andial Road and Racing.
That didn't seem too important at first. but then I relized who they were,and what they do
They rebuild most of the engines for P on this side of the sea. and for Indy racing. and they Heat/Cryogenic treat engine componets In their builds to make the parts stronger. Cranks, Heads, Bearing, Rods, and excedera.

Here is my question . What parts are a must for cryo. and what parts are a no no.? Like pistons and cylinders? And another concern. does the treatment change bearing tolerances greatly. The bearings you match to your crank may not work after a treatment. Do they schrink to much that you would have to also cryo the next size up to mach your crank.

Barry -

Up to a few years ago (I'm not exactly sure how long) Andial was a highly reputable P-shop here in SoCal for routine repairs as well as trick engine & suspension applications. They were here when Gary Emory still had his 'Parts Obsolete' business in Costa Mesa SoCal, and the Aase Brothers (dismantler & racing team) still had their Porsche salvage yard here in Santa Ana. If you couldn't get your P-car into Vlasek Polack Porsche in Manhatten for work to be done, then you took it to Andial.

I don't know much about Cryo-treatment other than I had the brake rotors on my Weissach cross-drilled and cryo-treated - wow, you wouldn't think you would be able to tell the difference, but you could (plus the extended life of the rotor)!

I would imagine it would improve some of the engine parts (life-span) as well.

I had the crank, rods, valve springs, and valves all cryo treated in my most recent engine, after it was fully balanced. It was not "expensive". There are people who have the entire case and all the hardware treated also, but I was building a street engine, not an all out race engine....and had to stop someplace.

I did go ahead and have the piston tops (JE forged) ceramic coated as were the heads and exhaust ports. Also had the piston skirts graphite coated, the crank and rods were treated with oil shed, and the bearings were treated with a polymer coating. Also built the engine with Nickies and LM ceramic lifters.

There is no change in shape of parts or tolerances as a result of the cryo treatment.

There are quite a few photos of the engine build starting at http://www.pbase.com/tmpusfugit/image/53010201 if you would like to see more. And yes, it runs nicely, it is a 2332. For a (barely)street engine that is.....

Wow, Jim! Everything looks awesome. You even have racing heads on it! How come it doesn't overheat on the street?

Hi Jim ,,,That is a nice T-1 build. And by no means not a cheap indever.

Is that a Aluminium case? What bore and stroke is it? What size valves? and where did you get your heads? I also like the roller rockers SWEET

Im gonna have to redo my T-4 Can you recommend a cryo specailist. My heads will have to go back to Headflowmasters to be checked.

I will also ckeck and see if they can cryo my rods ,crank and bearings.

Adrian will most likey cryo the heads and valves.

Thanks for the good words...the engine is 94 mm bore and 84 mm stroke for 2332 cc's. the rods are CB "H" rods, 5.7" length. The case is an aluminum CB pent roof case with a +7mm deck height. The rockers are Pauter 1.4:1. The heads are CB Comp Eliminator's which I ported myself. The exhaust ports opened up to 1.750". The intakes I just cleaned up a bit as they are already pretty agressive... CR is 9.5:1. Combustion chambers are 48cc's. With the ceramic coatings pump gas is fine with timing at 8 degrees BTC static and about 30 degrees at 3000 rpm.

Head temps run right at 290 degrees so far, have not yet passed 300 degrees. (Measured at the spark plug seat of #2 cyl.) Oil temps are a bit higher than I like running up to 220-230 on 100 degree days and a couple of hours driving 75-80-90+

Engine is still under break in rules, don't yet have 1000 miles on it, so am holding it under 6k. Planned top end is 7500, but the way the car is geared 7500 rpm in first is 62 mph. Running 3.44 rear end with 205x65 tires....engine will spin the tires from a rolling start, say about 20 mph at about 3k, right on up through 5k or so. Maybe time for LSD.

The engine itself other than being noisy (straight cam gears, resonators not mufflers, etc) runs well, idles well, pulls very strong from 1000 rpm in any gear, and has a 60-90mph accelleration that will get your attention. I passed a truck yesterday that was running along at 60....out to the passing lane, back in quickly, speedometer said 180 km....60-100 was just a very few seconds....

I am extremely pleased with this engine so far, I spent over a year collecting the parts I wanted and getting the outside work done. After I got it "completed" and in the car I had mulitple oil leaks, most of my making....so it was in and out of the car 3 times while I inflicted abuse upon myself for my own stupidity....but that is another story....

and yes Barry, it was expensive...total for parts and coatings and balancing, and cryo was a bit north of $10k. the Nickies were the big ticket...right at $4k for them with the 10mm head studs and the like, alone. Ceramic lifters were right at $400, rockers were close to $400, case was about $600, etc ad nasuem.... but if I didn't do this I would have to take up golf to waste this much money, and it is a lot less fun than my car....

I had the cryo work done here in Houston at Houston Performance who also did the balancing. Polydyne also in Houston did the various coatings. If you want I can send you the phone numbers and other particulars, but you may want to find someone closer to home.

Yelp with the nickies I can see a big bill .

But that explaines the low head temps. And it will do well with them. Sounds like a 8k engine to me, snd well worth it. Thats got to be a quick car, and a hoot to drive.

I plan to just cruise along at 65. and with the Audi auto tranny just need a little more low end touqre with my 2056. as a daily driver IM GOING FOR RELIABILTY.

At 50 with my eyes getting worse My hotrodding days are about over. Its a shame after I got my car together .Now Im falling apart. OUI!!!

I realy need to find someone on the east coast.

Barry, Barry, Barry, trust me on this, you are a young man! I got at least 10 years on you.....and I still behave like a juvenile delinquent, car wise at least....but I also understand we have different goals in mind with our toy cars....good luck with yours, if you have specific questions email me. I know just enough about engines to be totally dangerous.....

Jim

Gee Thanks Its raining today and aurther is reminding me of it.

If you werent reading past years post I wiped out a cam in a raby kit engine. I got from a third party with less than 6 hs run on it

I simply need to refresh all bearing and new rings and let Adrian check the heads as a precauton. I think ceramic lifters would also be a must. but should I use a Web 86a or 86b cam
While Im at it I just wanted a prefed cryo list of what to have done. the second time around

Ps i found a 912E badly mangled I can get all the tin ,fan stuff and injection off. That would give me a much easyer to maintain build. If i can get it all to work again. Its 914 CIS car. that also gets me a secound set of heads and a spare block The car is way past repairing and much of the interior is gone.

Barry, for my purposes the 86A is working well....but you will need either 1.4:1 or 1.5:1 rockers. I am using the 1.4. I like the ceramic lifters becuase they don't require a break in like steel lifters, not to mention they are much lighter than steel. Be aware that the lifters will require a custom lenght pushrod...at least they do in type I and I suspect it will be the same in type IV engines

My heads have 3mm. shims under the rockers . but no ceramics lifters ..

How can I distinguish between the 2 rocker types I don.t have a clue as to what these are but they do have the swevel end adjusters.

Do you have a spare set to measure of eather type .

Ps I don't think the wreck came with CIS. but it looks complete.

Jim,
Interesting..I live outside of Houston and did not know about these places. All they do is air cooled or what?

Michael

Michael, Polydyne does all sorts of champ car, formula 1, NASCAR, high performance boats, and the like engine parts(coatings).

Houston Performance is more drag racing engine work...balancing, dyno work (not on VW's), performance builds, cryo treatments, etc....they both did good work quickly...the balancing and cryo ran a bit over $200 and the various coating I had applied ran just over $400. Your mileage may vary.... http://www.polydyn.com/

and in Katy is Martel Brothers, a good source of racer parts if you don't already know about them....http://www.martelbrothers.com/

nope...did not realize...you are a wealth of knowledge!!

Michael

Thanks Jim I to apreciate the links you posted .

I always was concerned about the head shims And figure something was up with the previous builder. Eather in the deck hight or the push rods. But something is not whatis supose to be Please Note It run smooth at first then it chewed up the cam.

Barry,

If the cylinders shims are at the base of each cylinder their purpose is to set the head space to provide the correct compression. Headspace calculations need to take into consideration deckheight, stroke, rod length, piston height, and cylinder height plus the required headspace. That is the purpose of the extra deck height on my engine (+7.5mm), longer rods require either longer cylinders, or shorter pistons, or spacers, or in my case more deck height.

Also, the shims keep the pistons from the head, there should be at least .050" on most engines between the top of the piston and the bottom of the head.....some have more.

Copper shims on top of the cylinders are head gaskets. You can also get those in different thicknesses to set the head space that way. My thinking is big adjustment required, use a shim on the bottom of the cylinder, small adjustments the head gaskets may be the way to go.

Cam failure can be caused by improper break in of the engine, inproper assembly (no lube, old parts etc) or by defective new parts. There were a raft of bad new lifters in the type 1 world 3 or 4 years ago. Also, sometimes cams have been welded and rewelded and reground a few times and they tend to be risky, lobes have been known to fall off. For the price of a cam new versus used I go for new every time....much much cheaper than what you are facing.

Thank you! Jim,, But I mis spoke/typed and lead you astray.

The Shims I found were under the rockers on the 2 studs of both heads that were use to shim the rocker assemelies shafts out 3 mm.
have you ever seem that done before?

Also I absolutely want a new web cam and ceramic lifters . and I dearly wish that I pulled this engine down when I first received it. It was a long block, no carbs, Intakes ,or fan shroud.

I can check the compresson chamer size and recalculate the deck height. If its to close I will shim it to closer match factory specs. for a 2.0 and help ir run better on this poor gas around here. Id much rather lower the compression a schose than have clearance issues.

I have run Cam 2 racing fuel and blended it for My D When ever I take long trips. it burns noticeably cleaner But not to lean. but Pricy.

Presently its a bone stock 1600. But it will cruise smoothy at 80 for long distances and get about 27 mpg. i checked it from Wilminton at the beach all the way back to Raligh NC On I-40 and never let up. The temp did rize at one point,But I had snuck up the speed for a few miles. oppps.

Cryo works wonders if the components are treated to correct cycles of the treatment. I first started cryo work in 1999 and now we have developed 33 different profiles of the treatment based on the metallurgical properties of the materials.

I have seen parts compromised by cryo as well, persons that treat all the components the same despite their composition are certainly not doing you any favors.

All my super hero engines get the service as a standard.

The fellow that does my cryo work also does work for individuals based on our experiences, if you want to get in touch with him, email me.

I know your a busy engine builder.I will drop you a email. No rush Jake And Thanks for the offer.
Im In the process of dismantling a wreck this weekend and trying to salvage everything I can of a 69 912. Especialy the injection parts. It was a coupe.
I was told it was flipped into a colvert. It ripped the front and most of the roof off of it. But did not catch fire. It was left out in a old chicken house for many years but was coverd.
It would be amazing if the 914 engine were salvageable, at least it apears to be complete. The car was a beast to load and unload off the rollback. the rear brakes were locked. it has so many raggy edges I did get a few cuts.

Of course if it ran much upside down the bearings would be wiped out. but Its not locked up. i cant wait to pull it.

i also have a lead on a 70 914 that had a bad dash fire. It is a complete car. But right now I don't have the time or extra mola to grab it up.

Im checking closer to home with some help for the Childress camp on the cryo treatments. I have friend at their shop.

Also I did get the engine out of the wreck saterday. Im still not done stripping the car of ebayible parts. to help me recover some of the sale cost of the wreck. Hopefully I can break even. That P word should pay off. More bad news the tranny may be junk.