Do I have a brake fluid leak?

I assume that's what I'm looking at. I have a clear-ish liquid on the lower mount for the right side shock absorber. Maybe 1/2 oz dripped onto the floor and made a spot half the size of a playing card. It appears to be coming from the brake drun just above the shock but I can't see exactly where it's coming from but there seems to be something going on inside the brake drum. The outside of the drum--lower half has a very light coating of fluid on it.--Like you rubbed a rag with fluid on it against the drum. Very thin coating.
What should I do--remove the drum and see what's going on inside--or is there another place to look? I havent put the car on jackstands yet --maybe that will give me a better view.

The brakes seen completely normal and as high as they always were.

Thanks for any help. My car has only 5,000 shg miles on it.

Thanks for any advice----Jack

Jack, is this front or rear? What make and kind of shock is it? Some shocks will leak fluid. I assume you have front disc?

"What should I do--remove the drum and see what's going on inside--or is there another place to look? I haven't put the car on jackstands yet --maybe that will give me a better view.

The brakes seen completely normal and as high as they always were. "

Whoa.....sounds like operator error to me...

(sorry.....just kidding) ;>)

Yup, get her up in the air and find out what the heck is going on, but before you do, answer Will's questions - Inquiring minds want to know, ya know?.

A wheel cylinder leak will act like that, BUT if it's a drum then that wheel will probably lock up, especially at slower speeds. Sometimes a brake line leak at the fitting will run down the backing plate and onto the lip of the drum and then who knows where?

No matter what, rather than have a bunch of us speculate and generate a school of red herrings, get it up on a lift, poke your nose up there and see just what's going on. It's pretty simple in there, so it's can't be anything too involved.

Then report back!

Oh, and if you want to remove that big, castle nut on the rear axle to get the drum off, put the car on the ground, in gear, with E-brake fully on.

Use a 1/2" drive, 18" bat handle with a 36mm socket. Extend the length of that with a 4-to-six foot long piece of black iron pipe (or galvanized, if you're neat) of sufficient ID to fit over the bat handle.

Ask Gloria to sit in the driver's seat and press the brake pedal as hard as she can. Place the socket/wrench/pipe assembly on the nut at about 9 o'clock and push or stand on the far end. The nut should loosen.

Alternatively, you can use an impact wrench, but that nut's on there at 300+ ft. lbs. so it might be really tight. The 6' pipe should do it, though.

Once the nut is loose you can thank Gloria, release the E-Brake and the drum should come right off (yeah, right....sometimes you have to persuade it a little.....)

gn

Will---it's the passenger side rear. If it was the shock leaking it wouldn't be on the side of the frum--would it?

Thanks, Gordon. I think you could make a mint by doing a book about Speedsters and their care and feeding! I'll see what's ging on after we get back from France on 9/5 so until then I'll jus wory about it.

From what I can tell it's coming from inside that drum.


Anybody else had this happen to theit car?---Jack

I think you may have a stuck adjuster that has not been workin and your shoes have wore some and now it wants to let a little fluid by when you hit the brakes hard . they are made to work by hitting the brakes while you back up a few times.

I had a simular issue back in January on the beetle the adjuster had a few teeth gone and it wouldnt ratchet around to tighen up.. It had also seazzed in the bore and was a bear to get lose.

Thats my guess And I may be wrong but its a good place to start..
A inspection with the drum off is the best way to see for sure.

BUT!!

You could try just snugging the shoes by adjusting them up tight (if they will)..then backing off untill they barley drag. wash it up with brake cleaner and try it a few days. If it stays dry you nailed it

Jack.....Keep an eye on your brake fluid tank....If the level is not dropping, you probably have a leaky axle seal....Modern transmision lube is fairly light colored and may appear clear in a thin film....

Either way you need to pull that drum and do the repair....Either problem will reduce your braking ability....Nuff said...

Oh yeah!....Good Luck..

Jack:

You do not have "automatic" adjusters on your rear drums. You have to adjust them manually, so that idea is out. As Barry said, it's possible that the star wheel is frozen, anyway (happens all the time, especially when the car sits a long time) so you'll still have to get the drum off and take a look. PB Blaster might work wonders to get the star wheel free, or gently heat it, then totally remove the star wheel, clean it up (powered wire brush), lightly coat the threads with anti-seize and replace it. Do both sides (there should be two per wheel).

Barry's comment about washing everything with Brake Cleaner is good, too. That'll help to let you see what's leaking where.

Even if you have a leaking wheel cylinder and have to replace the cylinder AND the shoes, you'll be out less than $50 in parts and about 1 hour labor. Not a big deal and easily fixed, no matter what.

Enjoy Paris and the canal boats on the Seine. I'm envious.

gn

Great advice all around and I feel confident about tackling it.

Thanks to you guys ---without this forum and the smart folks here I would be dumping the car just like the gut I got it from with just 700 miles on it.---Jack

ps Gordin, I'm taking your top article to read in France. Can there be any better reading material? I think not, my friend.---Jack

brake fluid will eat your paint. Since you have not commented that was the case, it must not be brake fluid. Rear axle seal leaks are pretty common. I have been fighting one for 2 years. I think I finally got it resolved the last time I took it apart (about the 12th time it seems like)....I have passed about 1000km's and no leak so far.....great fun....

Jack,

Is your car swingaxle or IRS?

I would think the axle seal leak possibility applies to swingaxle only.

Jack, you pick the damndest things to read on a trip.

Instead of that silly thing, try to find a copy of "Summer Things" by Joseph Connolly, or "McCarthy's Bar" by Pete McCarthy.

Seems to me I got both at a book kiosk in Heathrow (or was it Gatwick? Maybe Orly? - anyway...) and LMAO all the way back to Boston....

Or maybe "Three Cups of Tea" by Greg Mortenson, or "Lost on Planet China" by Maarten Troost (another LMAO book, but the stuff is TRUE!)

Bon Voyage...

gn

Oh they will ratchet if you back up quickly and stomp the the brake the petal hard. The change is quite notetable when their workin right. my 72 does have them

How do your brakes ratchet into adjustment by backing up? I've been reworking the rears on my car, fitting VW backing plates, bearings, and drums to my 356 axles, bearing carriers and such for around a month now.

I have the rear assemblies from both IRS and swing axle VW rears all over the living room, There are NO ratcheting mechanisms at all. The only adjustments are done through a manual set-up using the now new star adjusters and slotted bolts that fit into them.

As Gordon mentioned the stars are fitted into rectangular holders that are drilled to receive them, the bolts are threaded into the stars and they, in turn, determine the position of the brake shoes. It's all done via threaded bolts and spinning stars, a ratcheting self-adjuster wouldn't have an effect on this sort of assembly even if it WERE fitted. Honestly, there isn't even room in there for an adjuster.

I wonder if your backing up and hitting the brakes hard isn't simply pulling the leading brake shoe out of the slot in adjuster bolt, temporarily giving you another 0.25" until the shoe settles back into the slot.

Seriously, I would LOVE a pic of the backing plates on your car. There totally aren't any adjusters in there that react in any way to backing up, unless you have a very special after market assembly . . . which I would LOVE to make a copy of for my own car.

PLEASE pull a rear wheel and gimme a peek inside ! ! !

" ... all over the living room ... ."
TC, you're the MAN.

Gordon helped me figure out the shim thickness on my drum backing plates, BTW, so you can disregard the call from a couple weeks ago. Turned out that a couple 1/16" thick pieces of aircraft aluminum with some strategically cut holes in them were perfect for the job. Also, apparently, one of the drums is a Porsche part and the other a VW. I can't tell the difference -- both have 14mm lugs.
Manually ratcheting the adjustment stars was cake, the drum cylinders were in great shape, and using the Jowdy Method of seating the pads is just what the doctor ordered. He can refresh our memories exactly, but I used the 80 mph, hard brake, 50 mph, hard brake, 30 mph, hard brake; repeat method and did it three times. I don't remember that he said anything about reverse. Larry's method worked like a champ.
Also, instead of fiddling with paper gaskets, I used yellow 3M adhesive on all the clean, dry metal surfaces instead. I saw a guy do that once ... So far, no leaks.
My car actually stops in a straight line now. Next up, putting in the two e-brake cables and the Ghia soft lines.

Cory,

What did you do about oil slingers in those drums? The extra hole is meant for the old style fitted against the inside of the drum and exiting out the hole.

The later style have a slinger washer fitted between the bearing carrier and the axle housing. Those bearing carriers that you show in the picture don't have drain holes in them so I figure that they're either meant for the earlier slinger set-up or they're from an IRS assembly.

You're going to quickly oil-soak your brakes if you didn't install the slinger.

Did you? Let's hope so . . .

It seems like the bearings will get lubed from the axle tubes, and it doesn't look to me like there's anywhere for the oil to come out because all the surfaces are mated and sealed.
Can you clarify that for me? Do you mean the hole closest to the axle in the drum itself should be closed off? I have been told that I'm going from early to late with this retrofit, but I'm not 100 percent on all the implications. These parts were handed to me as 'available, please use them' on a charity basis -- it's entirely possible that they're not all there.

Jack, this kinda turned into a hijack. Sorry.

Corey....The only possibility of oiling your swing axle brakes is a seal failure......Large or small. The "slinger" is an insurance policy....

"all the surfaces are mated and sealed."

Just just it . . . they aren't.

The bearings are greased and sealed, the axle tubes carry lubricant for the axles (and the bearings to a degree.) If you looked at the bearing carriers as you were putting all of the components in place, there were washers and shims and seals and stuff. Then the bearing seated into the lip at the end of the axle housing and the bearing carrier/cap got a big seal installed and it fitted over the bearing and the holes lined up nicely and that big fat spacer got all luned up and slid on over the splines and fit nicely against the bearing seal, Then the drum went on and done.

BUT . . . there are those pesky splines. The seal seats against that collar which slides onto the end of the axle, but the collar has a round hole in it, NOT a splined hole.

Oil continues to work it's way down the axle during rotation and gets slung out past the axle splines unless an internal slinger stops it or an external drum mounted slinger "slings" it out through the hole in the drum..

On the later swing axle assemblies there was an oil slinger that looked like a large flat washer that interrupted the oil leakage and funneled it into the bearing carrier and out through a small channel/hole that was drilled into the bottom of the carrier and then out through the backing plate. On the earlier swing axle cars there was a cool little cup and tube thingie that fit into the inside of the drum using the hole that ISN'T used to adjust the brake star adjusters. It's closer towards the center of the drum and has a rounded cast in boss circling it.

If you didn't address either of these slinger options, you going to eventually oil down the brake shoes and inside of the drums. For Sure! ! !

I can shoot some close-up pics of the later style slinger parts that I'm using on the 356. Once you see everything it all makes perfect sense and you can understand the need for and function of the slinger.

Just in case though,

These are the early style thingies:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=407021

This is a later style bearing housing/cap:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=567814

See the little entry and exit holes for the oil channel? There's another hole in the backing plate that matches up and lets the oil drain out.

This completes your TOTAL hijack, we now return to your regularly scheduled thread.

Oh, and Leon's wrong. Failure isn't in the deal, it's wear that's the concern. Continued wear and leakage. The whole assembly begins wearing out from the moment it's installed. The slinger continues to mitigate the problem as it grows and grows worse. When the bearing seal fails and spits oil everywhere, that little slinger isn't gonna do S#IT! You'll loose the bearing and shims and collars and everything else, a little spilled oil ain't gonna make a bit of difference.

PLUS, for the slinger to help during an axle failure, you have to keep moving ! ! !

THAT'S what I always do when I hear a loud whining sound and eventual crunching and banging comin' from the rear of the car. I TOTALLY just keep driving in the hopes that the oil slinger will keep the brakes from getting wet. I NEVER stop the damned car IMMEDIATELY and run over to the rear wheels to see what shattered ! ! ! !

Leon is SO wrong in fact, that I can SMELL all the WRONG just wafting off of him from WAY over here . . .

Team.....The splined area is "sealed" with an O-ring between the axle stub flange and the bearing spacer......And if a worn out seal isn't a failure????

I guess im lossing it I looked in My bently wv repair manual for the adjusting tab thats supose to pas over the teeth and push them down one tooth at a time. Nothing added to the e brake lever on these in the book. No addinal plate or hair spring.

I sware This one has somthing like that on it. But Now Im just saying what the heck.

I don't know!

So Im now back to my first suggestion Give it a peek or just adjust them and see

My mistake.....The o-ring goes between the bearing spacer and the face of the inner bearing race........

If you cannot get 50 to 70,000 miles from an undisturbed seal, you probably have a "ding" on the seal's mating surface of the bearing spacer, usualy caused by tossing the part into the parts bucket...doesn't take much.....Todays seal materials should go farther...

The "ding" will be found on the bearing spacer, where the seal lip rides......Normaly.

So, underneath all of this yelling and capital letters and exclamation pointing

Well, Team....You can just kick my butt any ol' time.... ;-)