With a fully automatic I feel moe low end tourqe would help it more than anything Any sugesstions !
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With a fully automatic I feel moe low end tourqe would help it more than anything Any sugesstions !
This is as good of an explanation as any:
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/horsepower_vs_torque/
Simple version . . . cam choice will move the available horsepower up or down in the rpm range and increased displacement/bigger carbs will increase torque, but since horsepower is a factor of torque and the cam lobes/duration affect the AMOUNT or air entering the cylinders as well as WHEN it enters, you can't really separate hp and torque so easily.
Read the above link, it's pretty decent.
Luck,
TC
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/horsepower_vs_torque/
Simple version . . . cam choice will move the available horsepower up or down in the rpm range and increased displacement/bigger carbs will increase torque, but since horsepower is a factor of torque and the cam lobes/duration affect the AMOUNT or air entering the cylinders as well as WHEN it enters, you can't really separate hp and torque so easily.
Read the above link, it's pretty decent.
Luck,
TC
At least with VW's I've read that stroker engines have more torque than stock stroke ones.
Again, longer stroke equals increased displacement equals more torque
To increase low end torque, keep the exhaust header pipes smaller in diameter. Length is important also. Check out Sanderson Headers website for education on exhaust theory.
Thanks TC, and David I printed that a put it in my . teck file under tourqe.
I followed the Hot vw milage motor build earler this year.. I was pretty interested untill they put shims under the jugs . To me thats a real bad idea, and a garantied leak maker.
They ran a 76 stroke crank with stock 85.5 jugs
Im thinking a shorter set of rods would be the best way to avoid shimming this kind of a build . BUT Who would make um?
I followed the Hot vw milage motor build earler this year.. I was pretty interested untill they put shims under the jugs . To me thats a real bad idea, and a garantied leak maker.
They ran a 76 stroke crank with stock 85.5 jugs
Im thinking a shorter set of rods would be the best way to avoid shimming this kind of a build . BUT Who would make um?
What is the best stroke and bore combonation? And how big can you go before you have serious heat issuues using nickies and split heads. on a type one Aluminum race case.
It would be using a mazda rx 7 oil cooler mounted up front in the car with alumium lines back to the engine. seperate oil pump, seperate oilpan pick up and return independent of a full flowed, standard oil cooler setup. but with a t-4 cooler.
Mr Vestal wants to build a bigger engine. I have already found him a good cryro specalist' and made my own suggestions.tward a build .
If it works out I may follow sueit. In my D
It would be using a mazda rx 7 oil cooler mounted up front in the car with alumium lines back to the engine. seperate oil pump, seperate oilpan pick up and return independent of a full flowed, standard oil cooler setup. but with a t-4 cooler.
Mr Vestal wants to build a bigger engine. I have already found him a good cryro specalist' and made my own suggestions.tward a build .
If it works out I may follow sueit. In my D
Barry,
The shims under the barrels are not usually a problem if you use appropriate sealer here.
The stock configuration calls for paper gaskets. It's been my experience that the paper gaskets will leak (sometimes they'll squeeze out if you glue them) before metal spacers will.
An alternative to having special rods made, would be one of those aftermarket cases with the deck surfaces machined to the correct dimension.
The real problem with leaks in this area is not the gaskets or shims, but the heads comming loose. The heads come loose from the engine getting hot then cooling. This process makes the engine assy. grow and shrink. After time the case studs that hold the heads on, will pull or fatigue or stretch. Thats when the barrel base gaskets leak oil and the heads (can) leak compression.
The best remedy for this is to use the best materials when building the engine. Either 10mm studs (with case savers if it's a used case) or good quality 8mm studs and keep the compression ratio reasonable. Having the appropriate cooling system for your engine is also critical.
Greg B.
The shims under the barrels are not usually a problem if you use appropriate sealer here.
The stock configuration calls for paper gaskets. It's been my experience that the paper gaskets will leak (sometimes they'll squeeze out if you glue them) before metal spacers will.
An alternative to having special rods made, would be one of those aftermarket cases with the deck surfaces machined to the correct dimension.
The real problem with leaks in this area is not the gaskets or shims, but the heads comming loose. The heads come loose from the engine getting hot then cooling. This process makes the engine assy. grow and shrink. After time the case studs that hold the heads on, will pull or fatigue or stretch. Thats when the barrel base gaskets leak oil and the heads (can) leak compression.
The best remedy for this is to use the best materials when building the engine. Either 10mm studs (with case savers if it's a used case) or good quality 8mm studs and keep the compression ratio reasonable. Having the appropriate cooling system for your engine is also critical.
Greg B.
Greg is totally right; although the factory issued a service bulletin in the '70's in which they discontinued the use of the paper gaskets at the base of the cylinders opting to use sealant instead.
I Thank you . I had another idea thrown at me yesterday.
If the case holes are thick enough would a grove in the jugs at the base that excepts a O-ring also inprove it.
Will this work ????? I'd want that Green type Oring material like they use on the T-4 push rod tubes.
Then the shimming would have no effect. getting the groves cut to center in the case thickness is a issue. But careful measureing will help that..
I tend to neglect a engine as far as pulling it to recheck for lose studs
I also agree with the right studs for the right jugs. But sometimes you get a bad match no mater how hard you try. I also want to run a aluminum case to help with this stud issue.
I have found a cold and hot measument of the jugs and the stud helps take out that guess work. But nothing is ever perfect, when your useing a old kitchen stove as a kelm.
If the case holes are thick enough would a grove in the jugs at the base that excepts a O-ring also inprove it.
Will this work ????? I'd want that Green type Oring material like they use on the T-4 push rod tubes.
Then the shimming would have no effect. getting the groves cut to center in the case thickness is a issue. But careful measureing will help that..
I tend to neglect a engine as far as pulling it to recheck for lose studs
I also agree with the right studs for the right jugs. But sometimes you get a bad match no mater how hard you try. I also want to run a aluminum case to help with this stud issue.
I have found a cold and hot measument of the jugs and the stud helps take out that guess work. But nothing is ever perfect, when your useing a old kitchen stove as a kelm.
" If the case holes are thick enough would a grove in the jugs at the base that excepts a O-ring also improve it.
Will this work ????? I'd want that Green type Oring material like they use on the T-4 push rod tubes.'
This a joke post, right?
Will this work ????? I'd want that Green type Oring material like they use on the T-4 push rod tubes.'
This a joke post, right?
NO I never Joke.
If the germans can make High temp O rings for the push rod tubes of a T-4 the same methoids and seal materials should still be avalible.. Regular black high temp seals may do fine .
But Schlothforst a spinning frame manufactor carries a wide asortment of seals of the red and green varity. I have a 85 mm o-ring here. would you be willing to bet they don't have bigger. thats the good german indusrial stuff.
Im thinking do it as a extra measure, a upgrade in addition to what is normally done.
Even if the jugs were to move any over time a extra seal in the case would reduce an chance of a leak ,even if the jugs did move
WHY NOT ?
If the germans can make High temp O rings for the push rod tubes of a T-4 the same methoids and seal materials should still be avalible.. Regular black high temp seals may do fine .
But Schlothforst a spinning frame manufactor carries a wide asortment of seals of the red and green varity. I have a 85 mm o-ring here. would you be willing to bet they don't have bigger. thats the good german indusrial stuff.
Im thinking do it as a extra measure, a upgrade in addition to what is normally done.
Even if the jugs were to move any over time a extra seal in the case would reduce an chance of a leak ,even if the jugs did move
WHY NOT ?
Barry,
The metal cylinder spacers are the standard and most accepted method for for adjusting "barrel length" and compression ratio any time you are not dealing with a bone-stock engine. Forget about the custom milling or "O" rings. The spacers are specially made for exactly what the are supposed to do.
Your perception is correct, they absolutely will leak like a seive -- unless you properly seal them. But for that matter, a stock cylinder without any "spacers" will leak too, if not sealed. There are many personal preferences for sealing. I goop the spacers liberally with Permatex copper RTV. It seems to work.
Mark
The metal cylinder spacers are the standard and most accepted method for for adjusting "barrel length" and compression ratio any time you are not dealing with a bone-stock engine. Forget about the custom milling or "O" rings. The spacers are specially made for exactly what the are supposed to do.
Your perception is correct, they absolutely will leak like a seive -- unless you properly seal them. But for that matter, a stock cylinder without any "spacers" will leak too, if not sealed. There are many personal preferences for sealing. I goop the spacers liberally with Permatex copper RTV. It seems to work.
Mark
Barry, I think you are trying to over engineer a simple sealing surface. There is not a huge amount of press there from your case, Shouldn't be any "pressure" if the case is vacuum'd or vented properly.
Barry, I think you are trying to over engineer a simple sealing surface. There is not a huge amount of press there from your case, Shouldn't be any "pressure" if the case is vacuum'd or vented properly.
God bless Viton o-rings and Permatex Ultra Copper gasket sealer. I'll bet is even has a VW part number on it somewhere? These two items keep the local greenies from trailing me to the garage.
Exzactly, if there is one thing I will not stand for it's a leaking air cooled engine I have over 53,000 miles on the the D and its as clean as it was the day of the install.
I don't see any down side to this simple upgrade And I still will use the best studs, the recemended shims with the best Atv avalable.
It may be overkill. Im only talking about a .035 thicknes O ring and only adding groves enough to get them to slip into the case firmly. I wont be clearancing any bores or jugs they will still fit as stock. but with the added shims to get the correct deck hight.
It.s my nickel and my lathe.
I don't see any down side to this simple upgrade And I still will use the best studs, the recemended shims with the best Atv avalable.
It may be overkill. Im only talking about a .035 thicknes O ring and only adding groves enough to get them to slip into the case firmly. I wont be clearancing any bores or jugs they will still fit as stock. but with the added shims to get the correct deck hight.
It.s my nickel and my lathe.
Have fun with it, Barry, but I think these guys are right. You've got lots of experience to draw from here ...
You've got different expansion rates and temperatures from one metal part to another, with several different alloy types. VW made their parts to play well with one another, at the expense of a little dinosaur gravy now and again.
I'd be curious to see what you come up with, but I'll put my Deutschmark on it still leaking from somewhere else.
You've got different expansion rates and temperatures from one metal part to another, with several different alloy types. VW made their parts to play well with one another, at the expense of a little dinosaur gravy now and again.
I'd be curious to see what you come up with, but I'll put my Deutschmark on it still leaking from somewhere else.
" Even if the jugs were to move any over time a extra seal in the case would reduce an chance of a leak ,even if the jugs did move."
You ARE kidding . . . .
If the jugs are moving that means that the pistons are moving as well which means that they're skewing either on the small or big end of the rods! If the jugs are moving that means that you no longer have correct torque on your head bolts and the heads are shuffling! If the jugs are moving you have a leak at the top as well as the bottom and you're running lean and that engine is due for a melt down! If the jugs are moving that means that the heads are eroding due to exhaust being forced out through the head-to-barrel sealing area.
You probably won't get an accurate torque on the heads if you're compressing a rubber ring in the process.
I KNOW that you were joking now . . . .
You ARE kidding . . . .
If the jugs are moving that means that the pistons are moving as well which means that they're skewing either on the small or big end of the rods! If the jugs are moving that means that you no longer have correct torque on your head bolts and the heads are shuffling! If the jugs are moving you have a leak at the top as well as the bottom and you're running lean and that engine is due for a melt down! If the jugs are moving that means that the heads are eroding due to exhaust being forced out through the head-to-barrel sealing area.
You probably won't get an accurate torque on the heads if you're compressing a rubber ring in the process.
I KNOW that you were joking now . . . .
You've proved it yourself. You said; 53k with no leaks=sounds good to me!!
Barry,
While you are "O" ringing stuff, here's something else that needs "O" rings.
Add "O" rings to the dia of the Oil pump. The face of the oil pump could use some help also.
I can't remember where I saw these (probably on thesamba.com) but someone out there is already making pumps that include "O" rings.
Greg B
While you are "O" ringing stuff, here's something else that needs "O" rings.
Add "O" rings to the dia of the Oil pump. The face of the oil pump could use some help also.
I can't remember where I saw these (probably on thesamba.com) but someone out there is already making pumps that include "O" rings.
Greg B
Mr Vestal made a better suggestion the jugs are only around 3/32 thick you cant, put much of a o ring there. But putting the grove in the bores which are much more than you need ,should be the ticket. I will have to make a cutter But I have something I can convert easley .
I agree with the oil pump upgrade I had problems with my T-4 in that area. If there is room I'll try something The oil drain plate may be upgraded as well. I have never liked all those nuts and washers
One more note the D is bone stock.
Mr Vestal was so inpressed by my automatic transmisson builds he wants me to help him make tools and help him figure out how to rebuild and upgrade the old 4 speeds. I excepted. but,I've never been in one. OH boy? the plot thickins
NEWS FlASH,, The D was the very first automatic I ever did. So you never know if you don't try
I agree with the oil pump upgrade I had problems with my T-4 in that area. If there is room I'll try something The oil drain plate may be upgraded as well. I have never liked all those nuts and washers
One more note the D is bone stock.
Mr Vestal was so inpressed by my automatic transmisson builds he wants me to help him make tools and help him figure out how to rebuild and upgrade the old 4 speeds. I excepted. but,I've never been in one. OH boy? the plot thickins
NEWS FlASH,, The D was the very first automatic I ever did. So you never know if you don't try
"But putting the grove in the bores which are much more than you need, should be the ticket."
Sounds really slick! Keep us posted on it. I have access to a cutter that might to the trick as well. If yours works out, I'd love to give it a try myself.
Luck!
TC
Sounds really slick! Keep us posted on it. I have access to a cutter that might to the trick as well. If yours works out, I'd love to give it a try myself.
Luck!
TC
I just gotta believe that Jake has an opinion on o-rngs? Ya got your ears on buddy?
Im converting a ring grove cutter for mine . It a schose to large and of aluminum construction. it should mill up fine.
I am always open to any suggestions. I do Not In no way down play any advise here. In fact I welcome it. . Now my greater concern is what displacement I should shoot for.
Id rather not over build and raise the heat range beyond resonable street use. Im not building a race engine but it will get race quality internals and rotating assembly
I am always open to any suggestions. I do Not In no way down play any advise here. In fact I welcome it. . Now my greater concern is what displacement I should shoot for.
Id rather not over build and raise the heat range beyond resonable street use. Im not building a race engine but it will get race quality internals and rotating assembly
I think Jake has takin the same stance as I did on the roller liftrs.
Wait and see. Not bad advise. especally with a unproven idea like this one.
Wait and see. Not bad advise. especally with a unproven idea like this one.
" I just gotta believe that Jake has an opinion on o-rings?"
Sure he does. If he can sell them or charge you to install them, they're PISSA.
Otherwise, they're a waste of time and you're an idiot for suggesting them . . .
Sure he does. If he can sell them or charge you to install them, they're PISSA.
Otherwise, they're a waste of time and you're an idiot for suggesting them . . .
Your intitled to your opinion.
Not my opinion, really . . . only know of him by what others have posted, and a little of what he's written . . . just stirring the pot, pretty much.
Back when I got the Helgerson T-4 Jake went out of his way calling me and telling me not to break it down and check it.
It had a bunch of probems from the get go and was a very poor build .Dont mis understand GOOD Massive 4 Parts Just a bad builder Mr Helgerson made a mess of it. I trust my Work Only from now own.
It had a bunch of probems from the get go and was a very poor build .Dont mis understand GOOD Massive 4 Parts Just a bad builder Mr Helgerson made a mess of it. I trust my Work Only from now own.
Back when I got the Helgerson T-4 Jake went out of his way calling me and telling me not to break it down and check it.
It had a bunch of probems from the get go and was a very poor build .Dont mis understand GOOD Massive 4 Parts Just a bad builder Mr Helgerson made a mess of it. I trust my Work Only from now own.
So go stir some one elses pot . You have your opinion And I have mine.
It had a bunch of probems from the get go and was a very poor build .Dont mis understand GOOD Massive 4 Parts Just a bad builder Mr Helgerson made a mess of it. I trust my Work Only from now own.
So go stir some one elses pot . You have your opinion And I have mine.
I don't believe one guy has the answer. There is plenty of t-4 info out there:
http://www.yunis.de/klaus5/en/Auswahl_en.asp
http://www.kaefer-tuning.com/
http://www.sharpbuilt.com.au/new_page_2.htm
http://www.yunis.de/klaus5/en/Auswahl_en.asp
http://www.kaefer-tuning.com/
http://www.sharpbuilt.com.au/new_page_2.htm
Yes Bruce I see your point . The knowlodge is is out there. and very Qualified. Ive owned several vw's over the decades and have built a few engines in my day. That hae heild up very well.
But when it comes down to the nuts bolts of a build. Im doing my own work.
I also have noted in the HWV article this month they discussed how the new milage motor had lots of tourqe on the low end and weins off at around 5 grand. A 76 stroke crank may prove to be to long a stroke for a street engine and reminds me of my dune buggy engine which would stand the front wheels and hold it up to the 3rd shift.out of the hole, but would not go over 75 mph on top end. Great for the sand dunes ,Bad for the Highway.
Im whatching this unfold for now as well Im leaning tward a 74 stroke build which changes All the spec's includin the shims. I would pre ferr a 72 stroke crank. just a schose more than a T-4 2.0 but getting a crank that size is iffe. unless you want a 12oo crank I havent research the 912 cranks but there may be a solution.
I have never used a Aluminum block things like Case savers are a question.
But when it comes down to the nuts bolts of a build. Im doing my own work.
I also have noted in the HWV article this month they discussed how the new milage motor had lots of tourqe on the low end and weins off at around 5 grand. A 76 stroke crank may prove to be to long a stroke for a street engine and reminds me of my dune buggy engine which would stand the front wheels and hold it up to the 3rd shift.out of the hole, but would not go over 75 mph on top end. Great for the sand dunes ,Bad for the Highway.
Im whatching this unfold for now as well Im leaning tward a 74 stroke build which changes All the spec's includin the shims. I would pre ferr a 72 stroke crank. just a schose more than a T-4 2.0 but getting a crank that size is iffe. unless you want a 12oo crank I havent research the 912 cranks but there may be a solution.
I have never used a Aluminum block things like Case savers are a question.
I'm with you. I do all my own(and for others) stuff. What I can't do I have a friend that can.
Thank you Bruce . I respect Jakes ability. as well as any racer or drag builders they got there the hard way. It takes time to learn and perfect this stuff. I don't blame Jake . but I wish I had did what I to best, Do the detective work to see what I had.
Im going to lay back for just a little while longer before I gather up all my parts fo this build I first need to make sure everything I need is still avalible
I have a Displacement in mind as a target of 2054. 125 C.I. A Type ONE It,s just a schose more stroke than a stock type 4
Im going to lay back for just a little while longer before I gather up all my parts fo this build I first need to make sure everything I need is still avalible
I have a Displacement in mind as a target of 2054. 125 C.I. A Type ONE It,s just a schose more stroke than a stock type 4
" Not my opinion, really . . . only know of him by what others have posted, and a little of what he's written . . . just stirring the pot, pretty much."
And you are wrong... Please don't stir the pot at my expense.
Sure I make a living doing this and I don't understand why it's a cardinal sin for a vendor to be a motivated member of forums as well as an enthusiast that works with the things that are his hobby to provide food for his table as well..
No, I do not work cheap because I put EVERY ounce of my life into the things I create including new developments and sharing what we find in direct testing. My engines take 80-120 hours to complete, today even tune up shops charge 50+ bucks an hour for changing spark plugs, Hell we are developing and creating engines for less than that in most cases labor wise.
Please know me a little better before offering an opinion about me that you have gained second hand. I'll do the same for you- it's only fair.
And you are wrong... Please don't stir the pot at my expense.
Sure I make a living doing this and I don't understand why it's a cardinal sin for a vendor to be a motivated member of forums as well as an enthusiast that works with the things that are his hobby to provide food for his table as well..
No, I do not work cheap because I put EVERY ounce of my life into the things I create including new developments and sharing what we find in direct testing. My engines take 80-120 hours to complete, today even tune up shops charge 50+ bucks an hour for changing spark plugs, Hell we are developing and creating engines for less than that in most cases labor wise.
Please know me a little better before offering an opinion about me that you have gained second hand. I'll do the same for you- it's only fair.
I'll let it drop now, but I am sure if you had been the one to tear it down you Even you would have been mad. he waisted your kit.
But you don't think a 1/16 O-ring in the jug bores would help prevent leaks of the case.
But you don't think a 1/16 O-ring in the jug bores would help prevent leaks of the case.
I was merely stating that something that isn't broken may not need to be repaired... I supplied him with some parts and he seemed to have followed my instructions well on the assembly- I never saw the engine.
i had a mis matched case build . The oil stump wouldnt seal and the oil pump leaked and I only got one quart of oil in it up on the stand, when it started to pee on me.
I resurface those areas with a peace of glass and o.400 emery cloth.
After that day when the cam wiped out. it was a few weeks before I did get brave enough to pull it down. I found that # 1+3 intake lobe was nearly gone 1+3 exhaustlobe had a chunk out of it the rest were fine.
My guess Someone got stengy with the cam lube.
The next time I will use 20/50 rotilla for the break in oil, like they did the Milage motor .
I have a Question , I have 911 engine with a spun bearing that it got when it turned up side down in a wreck. its a complete fuel injection 1.8 T-4 . If I wanted to rob it of its tinware and shroud and make my engine a fuel injected upgrading to some kind of fuel injectio. Will I have to change out the Massive C heads for something else with smaller thicker valves? like the other heads or will something special have to be made?
Im sure that made a cash register cha ching somewhere.
I resurface those areas with a peace of glass and o.400 emery cloth.
After that day when the cam wiped out. it was a few weeks before I did get brave enough to pull it down. I found that # 1+3 intake lobe was nearly gone 1+3 exhaustlobe had a chunk out of it the rest were fine.
My guess Someone got stengy with the cam lube.
The next time I will use 20/50 rotilla for the break in oil, like they did the Milage motor .
I have a Question , I have 911 engine with a spun bearing that it got when it turned up side down in a wreck. its a complete fuel injection 1.8 T-4 . If I wanted to rob it of its tinware and shroud and make my engine a fuel injected upgrading to some kind of fuel injectio. Will I have to change out the Massive C heads for something else with smaller thicker valves? like the other heads or will something special have to be made?
Im sure that made a cash register cha ching somewhere.