Idea for a t-4 muffler

I havent been satified with the sound of my exhaust. To quiet and not a deep enough tone. Plus it just don.t look correct from the rear
So a friend close by who has a welding service, help me kick around several Ideas and we come up with a variaction of one of my designs that might get it,
It will have the 2 tips out the back like it should. useing two 40" peaces of 2x4 thin wall tubing we hope to make a flowmaster type non baffle 3 chamber muffler that anyone can make at home and with luck you can use stock T-4 heat exchangers but it will run close the the rear apron.
Im running 2+1/2 shorened exchanger so I will let my inlet stand off 1+1/2 to help it clear the oil pump nicely. We will keep you posted, we have measured and remeasured.

Wish us luck

Hey Barry, I'm just in the process of getting an exhaust system made for my 911 pickup. I think I'm going to use a Magnaflow, with 2 1/2" tubing. I like the Dynomax, but it's almost double the cost (both are stainless and the Dynomax is for a Corvette). I have a Magnaflow in my IM and I like the sound, which is quiet when cruising and very loud when the pedal is to the metal.
Ron

Another gold plated exhaust Ron? From what I've read, the dynomax is better sounding than the magnaflow, and quieter at WOT.

Barry, have you got any drawings you can upload?

I saw a T1 muffler (p. 127, HOT VWs, November) 4 into one with a smallish muffler and two pipes. $65. I don't know if it will fit under the apron with out modifying it but it may be worth a look. I am not ready to dump alot of money into the exhaust system but would like to replace the monza type that I have.
ed

Ed! I looked at one of those mufflers and it's way to restrictive for ANY T-4 But it would work fine on a 1500 or smaller. I would not put it on a duel port engine over 1800 cc. I feel it would even restrict a 1600 a bit more than I like to see one

Bear In mind ,thats just my opion

I will post the pictures and the measured drawings when it's finished.

I was told by one person , Who saw a rough drawing of the proposed muffler,it looks like a box bee hive. Hey If I does what you want and fits. I'll pocket the $1200,oo for a muffler and exchangers.

I could have went with gas heater. But I still remember my Pops warning 20 years ago, Ever seen a corvette burn? it's not pretty!! and usally a total loss.

Again just my opion!!

Also check the German VW web sites (like CSP) for type 4 performance exhaust systems.

CSP ,Mittelmotor ACN.and Ahnedorp, Been there done that.
I have made the exchangers, but when shortened stock exhaust will not fit. I tried the PP sebring and hate the sound and look.

This will work,look correct, and have good clearances.

It will just be square instead of round.like Csp's or Mittelmotor's muffler. And anyone can make it with a mig, hole saw ,cut off grinder,or even a hack saw. As their tools base

Barry,

What is a PP Sebring? Can I have it?
MM

Pelican Parts sebring header and muffler.

They have been monified to fit my exchangers. But your welcome to it after I swap them out. I can undo the mods but can't garentee it will have perfect looking welds as it did before, but they will be strong welds and it will fit as before.

My goal here is to develope a system that will work with stock T-4 exchangers that can be tuned to different sound levels. and applications, Bug,Bus,Wagon or Notch.or even our flavor.

Anything with the stock twin tail pipe look.

It must have very low restriction values so if you wanted larger exchangers it would already be compatable up to 1+ 3/4.
Two adjustment veins will be accessable in the exchanger flange holes on my prototype.

A three chamber design and the first chamber must be common to both inlets

I can also add baffles in th middle chamber but it would increase the restriction and most likely make it to quiet.for most motor heads. that is still a work in progress

We will most likey have to take it apart a time or 2 ,3 ,4 whatever it takes,to get that right.

A baffle form a cherry bomb could be fitted or just one or two extra permenet veins.or we may be able to leave all that out ????

The tail pipes will eather be 1+3/4 or 2" I am undecided, but lean tward 2" and a lower exhaust tone.

After I figure it out, If anyone want to take it up and produce it that will be fine to. then they can refine it, futher for all of us.

Ok I Now have a decent drawing but it will not load to the forum?

you probably have to save it as a .jpg

I did and it stalled anyway.
I also submitted a copy where Jake can see it, I want his feedback and sugestions. before we button it up.

I'll try this, hope it works.

My web space is.home.earthlink.net/~oldyelerbh2

Aa ha Intel software and photo deluxe software conflict the drawing is now veiwable

The box beehive muffler is born, laugh and giggle and poke fun as you wish. but it does fit,I should never have to worry with it, when I adjust valves and it has great ground clearance even better than a stock Vw, 2 pics have been added to my web page, I have not yeat heard it make its noise, Yhis will be interesting. and I hope pleasent.

Barry, I for one am very interested in your muffler results. keep us apprised, as to fit, sound, power, etc. Flowmaster is king in the big cubic inch world, I am fascinated if this technology will work effectively in our world. I would like to see you dyno'ed with, and without and compare hp and torque figures. I'll invest in your new enterprise ( I'll be your west coast distributor }.

Gclarke "The Vacaville Guy"

Exhaust system design is not a good idea for amateurs. Exhaust gas wave dynamics, primary lengths, collector, muffler, and tail pipe length all have to work together. There is a comprehensive book available on exhaust system design if you really want to make an intelligent stab at designing and making your own.

If you wing it you might get lucky, but all things considered buying a proven design that works with your engine type and build is usually the best choice.

If you want sound, go to a vintage race and record the sound of a vintage 12 cylinder Ferrari at full song then play it back through your stereo...:o)

Response to King George...I'm not quite as old and wise as the king. At 56 I have apparently sooooo much to learn. But as a young puppy I used to make sales calls on Honeywell, when they were just two guys in a garage, Food maker, when they only had 3 "Jack in Box" hamburger joints. Digital scientific when they only had 5 guys in a small warehouse.
Jeffrey Dynomax, and Leroy Flowmaster {Psuedonyms} started with a crazy idea and a cheap welder. I'm very confident that in the talent pool of this forum, we have the individual and collective brilliance to design, invent, or even stumble accross some great concepts. I really feel that, to tell anyone to just sit down and shutup....and leave it to the pro's, is a incredible dis-service to all the tinkerers and amatuer fabricators out there. I have incorporated some useful and creative features for my speedster, just as others have, that the King will never have on his high buck, last fling, never to get his money out of, gotta leave to a relative who will never appreciate, ultra speedster.
My message...keep tinkering, and share the ideas that we can build on, or eventually look back and laugh at !


Gclarke

The "The Vacaville Guy"

Gary, you are an idiot. I didn't tell anyone to "sit down and shut up", what I said is that there was more to it than welding up some tubes. When did you call on the Honeywell "two men in a garage"? The reason I ask is that I know Buckland's son Ted; Buckland was president of MH in the 1950's and there wasn't a garage in sight, and unless I miss my guess (given your age) you were in diapers then...

George,

You know it is really ironic calling someone an idiot when we have all kept quiet about your mega buck "replicar."

Gary, I retired from Honeywell and am interested in your contacts with them, where was it and when. In 1967 they first had a one billion dollar sales year so even then it was a big outfit. Maybe your contact were ssome satalite operation, know they had many. Let me know and maybe I knew some of your clients, small world at tiems.

Bruce

George, I will refuse to respond to your senile ramblings henceforth. You have clearly exhibited your lack of grasp on any lucid thought processes.. Next time you come to California feel free to stop by and we can discuss your personal friendships with every corporation president who has lived since the time of Moses. You sir, are a sad deluded person indeed. I hadn't realized that Alzheimers disease was so rampant in the northwest. I'm sorry it appears that your caretakers would like to take you back to the padded room.
I used to enjoy your general knowledge of the automotive industry, but now you and your arrogance have crossed the line. You will be singlehandedly responsible for the death of this great forum, because you can't keep your ignorant fantasies, and deluded ramblings about your dreamworld to yourself. My inclination is to kick your scrawny ass across the ocean where you belong, but reason impels me to simply pity you, and empathize with your care takers.

Gclarke

Bruce, in 1967 I was a 21 year old, selling drafting and engineering supplies in San Diego. The Honeywell branch may have been a sattelite operation, (does that really matter?) but it was the dawning of a lot of young electronics firms growing as the aviation industry waned in San Diego at the time. I was hoping "the King" would get the point, that with encouragement many new and foolish ideas have blossomed into "microsofts", and that they should be encouraged and never discouraged !

GClarke
"The Vacaville Guy"

Encouraged, and not discouraged is correct. But forewarned is a necessity.
I have been playing with TIV engines VERY HARD for the last 15 years, doing alomost nothing else.

To date, the only thing I have not mastered is the exhaust system.

I know of only 2 systems that work, when you venture away from those your exhaust valves will let you know, shortly thereafter the wallet will open as far as it should have the first time. maybe even farther.

Bruce, go ahead and rant about my car if you want. So far it's a bit over $50,000 which may be utterly ridiculous to some of you but not to me. I realize some of you can't afford to do something similar, but that doesn't make the grapes sour - some of us old guys have the disposable income and know what we want. Hell, my 31 year old daughter and her husband just bought a $400,000 house so $50,000 for a car doesn't seem so bad.

My car won't be perfect, and it won't be a trailer queen, and will probably show up at the local 1/4 mile track occasionally for "test and tune". I'm not gonna have a cow every time she gets a little stone chip, either.

Different strokes, and all that...

Jake, I agree. Many succesful men say they achieved their goals by standing on the shoulders of those who came before them. Yes wisdom would dictate being aware as to every accomplishment or failure that preceded them. And to pick the brains of everyone that they could learn from. Your years and efforts with the type 1V are appreciated by myself and most guys on this forum, because it has been good food for thought. As well as identifying what may well be the next logical step in our horsepower/reliability challenges. And hey thanks for the simplicity with which you present your ideas.


Thanks

Gclarke "The Vacaville guy"

Gsry,

I was just wondering about your contacts with Honeywell, yes, they had lots of breanches around the country where they sold Honeywells prducts. I worked for the large building diision. We had our own branches in the US and Canada and sold and installed temp controls and later security systems. It evolved into quite a prosperous division until senior management decided to emasculate it. They all read the same books it seems and whatever one company does, the other follows along.

Your reply to
George was excellent, too bad he won't see the "light." Ever notice that George always responds to a little criscism with another attack.
Seems to be a certain lack of maturity. Anyway, I'm out of the corparate rat race and I am so happy. I can play with my toys now. Not that kind you guys.

Bruce

Uh, Gary, Maryland isn't in the northeast, it's a mid-Atlantic state on the east coast. My Altzheimer's is probably what helps me do the New York Times crossword puzzles every day, win rifle matches, etc.

And while I may be somewhat deluded - most of us are, especially if we believe we read in the paper or see on TV - you'll be happy to know that I'm not sad. My life is and has been a very enjoyable and rewarding one - how's yours?

George,

You are a fantastic straight man. I had mentioned to Gary that you always responded to a little criticism with another attack. You rose to that like a trout to a fly. And by the way, I am happy with my life
as I'm sure most of us are. It is a question that is not worth asking!

Bruce

Bruce, I think it is always a question worth asking of oneself, though if we ask it of others we will probably never get an honest reply as it is an ego saturated question.

Okay. Next topic.

Guys, guys.....Speedsters, Speedsters, Speedsters!

I did not run it very little It got dark on me I been up for 26 hrs.
But Yes!!!!!
A deep mellow tone and it has that tingy sound like good chevy headers have ,like it s in a barrel. Wicked!! Oh MAN Wicked.

It's the first its been run sence I did the break in over a month ago. so know it time to do the carb syncronize my first set of twins spooky.

Jake Please!.
If you can spare a set of stock T4 exchangers? I will pay a deposit if you wish. I do want to make the second prototype. and ship it all back to you for a complete workout.in the weeks or months to come.Just as I had said I would.

I need to know , good or bad how they perform.

George is right they do need to be tested.

Jake ,I did remmeber your warnings about back pressure and the four ports needing to murge into one ,so it will idle ,hence the first chamber. I plained the second chamber as a place to adjust the back pressure, With the restricion as low as I have them here Jus adding veind should do the trick

Good nite all.

Barry,
Those heater boxes are hard to find, let me look through my junk...


Of course, George's daughter has a 400K house...


Hell my little old cabin was built in 1931 with a saw mill that my grandpa ran off of a Farmall tractor (I still have and use that tractor) I'm in the middle of restoring it, and just 3 days ago found that the walls were insulated with feed sacks....

It'll still be standing when 99% of those new stucco and waferboard excuses are gone......Solid oak, if you want to drive a nail into it, you drill a hole first, or its ain't happening.

Price don't mean a damn thing.......

I was thinking of the old T.V. show, Laugh In (for those of you who are old enough) We could run a new version of this show. George could be the new Dan Rowan (the straight guy) and the two Ronnies could be the new Dick Martin (the two idiots). I emailed Goldie Hawn, but she hasn't emailed me back. As a matter of fact, neither has Artie Johnson, Ruth Buzzy, or Dick Martin. Okay, it may be hard for Dick to email me, since he's dead. I figure for the first show we'd get the Strawberry Alarm Clock to play 'Incense & Peppermint'.
Ron

I will forever be amazed at the level of commitment and depth of thought some take to bash others into the ground.

It is still however better to hear/read it in this way than on some other sites I visit where words are crude and completely reactionary...not so well thought out.

:bow: to all who took the time to respond such comments, even the idiots, becuase at least you thought before typing

:applause: to go to those who attempted to redirect the topic back to the original.

With that said, I'd rather applause than a bow, and....

I would like to hear sound clips from this exhuast. I am supprised by the exhaust that is on my speedster, it sounds exactly like a 911 that someone drives at my company. I wonder why anybody would have anything else. But my ears are always open for better.

Sound waves and fluid dynamics etc... do come into play with new muffler technology, however, the gains I would bet from having a muffler perfectly tuned to your engine would be in small percentages. And we all know what 3% or even 5% of 200hp is. :)

I just popped in on the way out to the 6 week plant shut down this morning, I do hate these things lint and dust fly everywhere ,tangial belts ar 100 ft long and a pain to change and track .
A sound bite I think is a can do but I first got to get it to idle smooth its sound s good in a throtle pull but it stummbles at idle and it did that even with the sebring on it I did spray around with Ether no change, and my cheep carb syncronizer barely moved whenI set it across all 4 lookin for the highest and lowest and thats as far as I got. it not doing to hot going to check in with a friend to se if he has the good one. or I may have to do it by ear