Is there a world of difference between the newer VW engines vs. a 356 B or C engine? Or are they very close?
---Just curious about this. Thanks for any insight---Jack, Hot Springs
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Is there a world of difference between the newer VW engines vs. a 356 B or C engine? Or are they very close?
---Just curious about this. Thanks for any insight---Jack, Hot Springs
---Just curious about this. Thanks for any insight---Jack, Hot Springs
Type 1, typical VW Bug or Karmann Ghia,
Type 2 VW bus (Early bus engines had an upright fan shroud, late type 2 engines did not. Late type 2 busses actually had a type 4 engine, confusing isnt' it?)
Type 3, Squareback, fastback, notchback
Type 4 late bus, 411, and 914 Porsche.
All of the above engines had a 2 piece engne case.
356 B&C engines have a 3 piece engine case.
The late air cooled VW engines had fuel injection and the Porsche engine (356 B & C) had carb's. The late type 2, type 3 and type 4 engines were known as a pancake engine as there was no upright fan shroud. Cooling was achieved via a crank mounted fan. In other words, everything was different and the only similarity was that they were internal combustion engines and horizontally opposed.
To the un-trained eye, some would say that that 356 engines look similar to Type 1 engines
Type 2 VW bus (Early bus engines had an upright fan shroud, late type 2 engines did not. Late type 2 busses actually had a type 4 engine, confusing isnt' it?)
Type 3, Squareback, fastback, notchback
Type 4 late bus, 411, and 914 Porsche.
All of the above engines had a 2 piece engne case.
356 B&C engines have a 3 piece engine case.
The late air cooled VW engines had fuel injection and the Porsche engine (356 B & C) had carb's. The late type 2, type 3 and type 4 engines were known as a pancake engine as there was no upright fan shroud. Cooling was achieved via a crank mounted fan. In other words, everything was different and the only similarity was that they were internal combustion engines and horizontally opposed.
To the un-trained eye, some would say that that 356 engines look similar to Type 1 engines
Jack,
I have a spare 356 C engine in the garage at the moment...but to your question, while the engines are very similar in appearance the devil is in the details. The are very few parts that interchange between the engines. The 356 engines has in my opinion a much better head design, to start, things like retangular exhaust ports, better valve angles etc...the cases are 3 piece cases allowing some access to the front of the case for cam gear work and the like. Better oiling pump system with the exception of the coffee purculator oil filter system on the 356. The distributors can be interchanged, my 356 is running with a 009 now...
The very earliest 356 engines (pre "A"?)had more in common with the 36 hp VW engine, but that all changed pretty early in 356 production to the more robust 356 designs.
Oh by the way, if something costs $1 to do on a VW, plan to spend $3 to do it on a Porsche...just as a rule of thumb....
I like to think of the value of an engine in terms of $/hp. VW tends to beat out Porsche in most cases. However, a Suby will win that competition everytime over Porsche and VW...
A 356 engine can be opened up to about 1783 cc's+/-. But to do all the high performance things that get you up to or over say 150 hp it will cost you about $10k. $10k in a VW style engine will usually get you over 200 hp...or maybe even 300 hp if you go turbo.. or you can get 280 hp out of a TT Suby for under $5k with a bit of shopping...
I actually like the 356 engine a lot. I have a buddy here in town that has taken his to a very high level of sophistication and performance. It is a very sweet high reving (7500+ rpm) engine, but he may have as much as $15k in it and he did a lot himself...and it is likely in the 170 hp range....
I have a spare 356 C engine in the garage at the moment...but to your question, while the engines are very similar in appearance the devil is in the details. The are very few parts that interchange between the engines. The 356 engines has in my opinion a much better head design, to start, things like retangular exhaust ports, better valve angles etc...the cases are 3 piece cases allowing some access to the front of the case for cam gear work and the like. Better oiling pump system with the exception of the coffee purculator oil filter system on the 356. The distributors can be interchanged, my 356 is running with a 009 now...
The very earliest 356 engines (pre "A"?)had more in common with the 36 hp VW engine, but that all changed pretty early in 356 production to the more robust 356 designs.
Oh by the way, if something costs $1 to do on a VW, plan to spend $3 to do it on a Porsche...just as a rule of thumb....
I like to think of the value of an engine in terms of $/hp. VW tends to beat out Porsche in most cases. However, a Suby will win that competition everytime over Porsche and VW...
A 356 engine can be opened up to about 1783 cc's+/-. But to do all the high performance things that get you up to or over say 150 hp it will cost you about $10k. $10k in a VW style engine will usually get you over 200 hp...or maybe even 300 hp if you go turbo.. or you can get 280 hp out of a TT Suby for under $5k with a bit of shopping...
I actually like the 356 engine a lot. I have a buddy here in town that has taken his to a very high level of sophistication and performance. It is a very sweet high reving (7500+ rpm) engine, but he may have as much as $15k in it and he did a lot himself...and it is likely in the 170 hp range....
Larry: Quick question on T-3/4 fan shrouds:
I know that they were pancake (i.e., horizontal, not upright) shrouds, but:
1. Do they cool as well as the upright 1971-on Upright shroud?
2. Why don't we see any in Speedsters? Do they not fit for some reason?
Thanks....gn
I know that they were pancake (i.e., horizontal, not upright) shrouds, but:
1. Do they cool as well as the upright 1971-on Upright shroud?
2. Why don't we see any in Speedsters? Do they not fit for some reason?
Thanks....gn
That's my answer! Many thanks--I just didn't know as the two engines do look similar to my untrained eye.
I really had no idea that they were worlds apart, which they are.
I just got a 105hp Speedie --VW engine--and am at the start of what looks like a very steep learning curve.
This site is a real find for me and I think I've read about every post on it. Thanks for your insight and willingness to pass on your knowledge.
Jack, Hot Springs
I really had no idea that they were worlds apart, which they are.
I just got a 105hp Speedie --VW engine--and am at the start of what looks like a very steep learning curve.
This site is a real find for me and I think I've read about every post on it. Thanks for your insight and willingness to pass on your knowledge.
Jack, Hot Springs
Gordon, see my last post under "36 HP shroud"
https://www.speedsterowners.com/forum/readmsg.asp?t=10787
As far as fitting in a Speedster, It ""MAY"" take some fabrication as The engine is longer (flywheel to end of the crank mounted fan)
Here's a photo of a Type 3 engine with carb's
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2050381960087888626JXttQV
https://www.speedsterowners.com/forum/readmsg.asp?t=10787
As far as fitting in a Speedster, It ""MAY"" take some fabrication as The engine is longer (flywheel to end of the crank mounted fan)
Here's a photo of a Type 3 engine with carb's
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2050381960087888626JXttQV
Pancake ina speedy
VERY tight fit. Hafta cut and flange the rear 2x2 frame !
VERY tight fit. Hafta cut and flange the rear 2x2 frame !
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Wow.....that far back, huh? Interesting.
I remember when I was a Teen, a girlfriend's mother had a 411 squareback which I drove down to Cape Cod for her. I was about at the end of a couple of seasons of building Dune Buggies to bolster my income, but I was REALLY impressed with that 411. Amazing amount of power, cruised effortlessly down I495 at 85+ and didn't seem to be running too hot (never went over 220, if I remember right, but was right at 220...) even with a car full of vacation stuff.
Now, I know more about that engine, so I'm not surprised as much, but the pancake cooling was pretty compact back there. Too bad it doesn't measure up to the traditional shroud...
Thanks for the info.....
gn
I remember when I was a Teen, a girlfriend's mother had a 411 squareback which I drove down to Cape Cod for her. I was about at the end of a couple of seasons of building Dune Buggies to bolster my income, but I was REALLY impressed with that 411. Amazing amount of power, cruised effortlessly down I495 at 85+ and didn't seem to be running too hot (never went over 220, if I remember right, but was right at 220...) even with a car full of vacation stuff.
Now, I know more about that engine, so I'm not surprised as much, but the pancake cooling was pretty compact back there. Too bad it doesn't measure up to the traditional shroud...
Thanks for the info.....
gn