1-1/2" Heater Boxes- and Real Heat

Does anyone know if anybody sells a true heater box (with heat sinks)in 1-1/2"? Several places sell the "pipe in a box" deal, but this kind of defeats my "heat at all costs" philosophy. I want to modify a set of boxes to recirculate cabin air, but I'd like to step up from the 1-3/8" standard boxes. If I have to decide- I'd rather have the heat than the perfomance, but I'd like them both.

Stan,

Try CB perf & CSP. CSP was out two months ago, but was expecting some from Germany. I have a pair of true 1.5s from CB that are 18 months in use and provide adequate heat.

Again, they are CBs, and the system is CSP, Works, performs, sounds, and looks great from my view.....

I will pick up my car next week with the new 40s installed. I'll give it a shakedown to make sure that I'm happy with it. If all goes well I'll p-mail you about the CB ICT kit you asked about.

Jim OKC

I would be surprised if anyone is making a 1 1/2" heater box with an aluminum finned core. Check out my ordeal in Technical (building a new exhaust system). It is near impossible to recore the aluminum core to a larger size..be it 1 1/2" or 1 5/8". It IS possible, but I wasn't willing to pay the cost and none of the machine shops near me wanted to do it. The cores from old heater boxes are really a work of art...very impressive. Since, over the next few years, I really wanted to produce some healthy horsepower, I wanted a 1 5/8" system. Otherwise, I probably would have gone with a system from BAS or CSP. So, I'm ending up with 1 5/8 " hollow heater boxes. George says his works great... but he has a fan (I think). Still, I keep on looking at these aluminum cores.....
Ron

I contacted both CSP and CB- they are both "pipe in a box", no heat sink operations. I don't get it- it can't be that hard for someone to manufacture.

Yeah I also wished there was some AL finning in the aftermarket heater boxes. I do have one tip though that seemed to work. I have the CSP 1.5" heater box and I just covered the entire box with header wrap so that it would help insulate and build up more heat . It's an easy trick and did seem to work esspecially in colder weather when the boxes can't heat up enough.

J-P

My ex-1 5/8" merged system with heater boxes is plain tubes and puts out a lot of heat.

I posted in the wrong forum. Mea culpa

(Message Edited 2/9/2003 5:18:14 PM)

My new system will be very similar to the system in your old car. George, what do you think of header wrap around the heater boxes?
Ron

I guess it's a cost thing. Back in the 70's when I had a 1970 Beetle, heater boxes were very expensive. Over $200 each (and that's in 70's dollars). Now, heater boxes are about half that. So, you can imagine what 'real' aluminum cored heater boxes would cost today? The market is probably too small, especially for the larger boxes. And low volume usually means higher costs. The main problem is recoring the old aluminum cores. 1 3/8 " pipe in the center, surrounded by aluminum and the opening is square at one end. Maybe someday someone will start making new, larger diameter aluminum cores. I may still try to build a set of aluminum cored 1 5/8 " heater boxes. I may try the header wrap on my boxes.
Ron

(Message Edited 2/9/2003 6:05:22 PM)

Do not use any kind of wrap on an exhaust system unless it is made out of stainless steel. Wraps trap moisture and cause rapid rust-out.

How about ceramic coating the whole system, with the exception of the muffler, which is stainless steel? Worth the cost?
Ron

Most companies that ceramic coat exhaust systems will only give a "guarantee" on a new uninstalled system. An unabused ceramic coated (inside and out) carbon steel system will probably last longer than you will own the car.

Has anyone thought of stuffing the "pipe in a box" heater boxes with stainless steel steel wool? Or expanded stainless steel mesh? Back in the 70s I used to buy this stuff for use in the nuclear industry. It was available from several speciality steel supply houses. Not all that expensive. The idea is to stuff your hollow heater box full of something that will slow the air down long enough to heat it up and at the same time act as a heat sink without corroding too fast. It won't heat up as fast as fins, but eventually it should get up to operating temperature. Just a thought, who's first?

I agree with the thought that the outer box should probably be stainless if you are going to wrap it with Thermotec or some equivalent heat wrap. I destroyed a perfectly good set of steel pick-up truck headers in search of optimum performance. The metal just fell off in large flakes in a very short perid of time.

It's a good idea not to impede air flow through heater boxes; in fact they have a hole to in them to allow air to flow through when the heater control valves are closed (no cockpit heat). The air flow is to keep the exhaust pipes running through the boxes from overheating and burning out prematurely.

The header wrap around the heater boxes does work very well. In addition to not loosing heat you will also reduce the temps. that radiat up to the heads when the car is running while sitting still. I did this to get more heat and yes it does work. The differance is luke warm heat to almost to hot to keep your hand over the outlet. In addition to this I also insulated any/all tubing all the way up to the cockpit. I've had people drive my car with these mods and they can't believe that my car has more heat than their beetle.

Will it rot out the boxes, if you drive your car in salt yes I'm sure it will. How many people drive their cars in the snow with salt on the roads, not many. Those heater boxes get real hot, I doubt you'll ever see them rust, if your worried about it get the boxes hot coated.

J-P

Jean-Paul, you don't have to drive in moist salted road conditions; wraps accumulate and trap moisture during cool-down when you shut off the car. When you start it up (for instance, the next morning) the trapped moisture does evaporate slowly during warmup but it also creates a rust climate inside of the wrap. You will probably find this out for yourself.

Things don't rust in Cali.! Even if the boxes do rust out it will take years
before this happens with the hi-temp. coating on there. Give me heat! Even in CA the weather gets cold.

So George, when are ya getting a new car, I heard you sold the old one. I heard you were going to go big for the engine, how about a nice 2.7 liter fuel injected car or perhaps a turbo. What heads?
Will you go Ti valves? How about the new AL case? If your building all new you might as well go Type four or even a 911 engine, I think you can only get so much out of a Bettle engine before it grenades.


I've got a 2.1 liter myself and the car is quick but not really fast enough to blow away most cars today. The new z, S2000, TT 225, Subaru Impreza, even the new Accord is really fast.

J-P

George,

Just curious, why go with 11.5 to 1 compression with the a/c.net squishy pistons?

From STF post by John: "... we haven't found a limit yet for pump gas, but it will likely be in the 16-17:1 range. It's actually difficult to GET this much compression. I tell most guys to run 13:1 or so, and then worry about other stuff.
John
Aircooled.Net Inc.

I was thinking about your new car. What is impressive to me (besides the fact that you can afford it) is that obviously you could buy just about any car you may want. You have owned some great cars yet you choose to buy another custom Intermeccanica, which says a lot about their product and your beliefs.

Sounds good, I'm sure it's going to cost. Why not a Type four? You could get up to a 2.7liter with the same money with more power? Perhaps you might want to chat with Jake a little to at least compare. Research will pay off, a Type one is not the only way to go. Also do you really think that a modified Type one head is going to dissipate all that heat from a 2.4 liter? Just seems like that combo would sream for the strip and meltdown on the street. What do you want to use this car for? Just wondering.

As far as my combo goes....
82 Scatt crank
H-beam Scatt rods
AL case
Mofoco heads 37*42 D port
Web cam ---can't remember which one--have to look
Total seal
90.5 pistons
chrome moly push rods (would like to get some of John's strong AL rods)
scatt lifters
44 IDF 60 idle--F-11 airs--36 vents--140 mains
balanced/welded fan
1.5" exhaust (maybe a little small but should be good up to 5500 rpm)
009 dist. set up at 30 deg. total adv.

Basically the standard big 2110 engine.
Power is good but not fantastic, the car is about as fast as a Boxter (not the S model)


J-P

Jean-Paul,
You're kind of new around here, aren't you?

Jean-Paul, I have no idea what your engine build is but my ex-2,110 makes 165 to 170 BHP at about 6,250 RPM with max torque about 155 ft. lbs. at 5,250 RPM. The build specs for my new engine are:

2.387cc type 1 engine using one of Todd Francis' full-flow Precision Alloy wet sump TF-1 aluminum engine cases with .100" cam drop, LN Engineering 94mm biral cylinders, Aircooled.net "super squishy" C high-swirl forged Wiseco pistons, custom lightweight steel wrist pins, Total Seal 2nd compression rings, Crower 5.7 custom titanium connecting rods, Scat forged chrome-moly ultra-light flanged crankshaft with type 4 center main and matching flywheel lightened to 10 lbs., Web Cam hard-welded 86b camshaft on an Autocraft steel billet cam blank, Joe Schubeck Racing 58 gram composite lifters, Autocraft tapered ends chome-moly pushrods, either Bugpack 4046 or Web Cam dual performance valve springs with titanium spring retainers, Pauter Machine 1.3 ratio roller rocker arms, JayCee engineering pushrod tubes, CB Performance CNC ported 044 heads with Manley "super duty" S/S 44 intake and 37.5 exhaust valves, 11.5 to 1 static compression ratio, NOS dual 48 DRLA Dellorto carburetors on CB Performance port matched intake manifolds, electric fuel pump with built in pressure regulation to 3.5 psi, CB Performance hex-bar carburetor linkage, K&N air filters, CB Performance 1 3/4" merged S/S eshaust, 30mm Schadek oil pump with Berg pump cover, Gene Berg 3.5 quart bolt-on sump, Mallory mechanical distributor with Pertronix II and Bosch "red" coil running 34 degrees total ignition advance with fast advance rise springs, KP stage 1 clutch with "Copperhead" friction plate, welded and balanced cooling fan, MOCAL oil thermostat and Setrab auxilliary oil cooler with fan, VW type 181 shroud with VW type 4 oil cooler and stock VW engine tin, and a "Fluidampr" harmonic balancer on a custom hub with degreed aluminum belt pulley.

The engine will also have a Pre-Luber for oil system pressurization pre-startup and following an oil change. Looking for about 200 to 220 BHP at around 7,000 RPM.

(Message Edited 2/14/2003 12:35:14 PM)

Erik, the 11.5 to 1 compression ratio isn't cast in bronze, I've been thinking about going up to 12.5 to 1.

Other cars? Yeah, I came close to buying a one owner 12,000 original mile 1986 Ferrari 328 GTS - red with beige leather (last of the tube-frame Ferraris and a large improvement over the 308 and 308QV). But anybody with a credit rating can buy one of those (a Fiat V8 in disguise), and I can't work on it myself without a lot of hassle because too much is electronic black-box stuff. And I can't afford the plastic surgery it would take to make me look like Tom Selleck.

And yeah, I can afford it the new IM, but just barely. My rationalization is that I'm 65 years old, I've always had at least one fun car, I can service it myself, and you're right about the quality of IM vehicles - it is absolutely finest kind.

George, you certainly are thorough with all of your decisions. No doubt Henry and Pat enjoy dealing with customers like you because you know what you want.

I know you are fairly tall, which was the reason your originally decided upon the D version. Is Speedster fit a concern?

I was wondering if I had your budget for a fun car what would I buy...? Sigh, so many cars, so little money.

I'm 6'3" (Henry at IM knows that) but with the bucket seats and high-bow top there shouldn't be any clearance problems except for getting in and out of the car with the top up.

I was 6'4" when I had my '56 Speedster back in the 60's (you shrink a bit as you get older) and it was the same - contortionist to get in or out with the top up but otherwise no clearance problem.

Don't sweat the money situation. At times I've had very little or none, and at other times I've had more than my share and given a bunch to charities and friends in need. It all evens out in the long run; just try enjoy life a little every day.

Jean-Paul, I have workled on type 4 engines and rebuilt one that was in a girlfriend's 412, and I just don't care much for them. Add that they look funky (to me, anyway) and I would rather have the classic cooling shroud look in the engine compartment.

A 2.7 liter versus a 2.4 liter isn't that big a deal, especially since the type 4 heads are a limiting factor. If the 2.4 isn't quite nasty enough I can always drop the compression and add a turbo.

If you would like to see some BHP improvement from your engine you could try 48 IDF's and a 1 5/8" exhaust. Failing that, 38mm venturis for your 44 IDF's and rejetting would help (venturi would be 4mm less than your intake valve size). Also, I had a noticable performance improvement when I went from 30 to 32 degrees total advance on my 2,110.

(Message Edited 2/14/2003 3:25:29 PM)

Well Stan, I've talked to this site a while back when it was fowarding conversations to my e-mail but then that stopped and so I also stopped writing. Now I've just got back on and it sounds like things have changed. I can't believe George sold his car! I've had my VS for about two years now and have put on some mileage. I drive it to work two or three days a week.
I've also upgraded the engine and I think I've actually got the car running pretty well, summer will be the best test for that. Anyway I'll have to get some pics of it and some paintings I've done of these cars up on the site.

J-P

George, where are you going to get a harmonic balancer for your new engine? I've looked around and I can't seem to locate one. Aren't those
things set up for a specific engine? I mean to say that if you increase the size of the engine esspecially in the stroke the balancer may not work. Those things from what I understand are sized/designed for specific engines so that they may cancel out vibration at specific rpm ranges.

J-P

George, did you ever toy with the idea of putting a 911 in your new car? While I was in looking at your car (or what will be your car) I looked at a customer's IM with a 911 motor in it. It looked very sweet!
Ron

911 engine in a Speedster replica is very heavy and spoils weight distribution and handling; it is also more difficult and expensive to maintain.