1 5/8 merged headers/fit heater boxes

Noticed this on California Imports web page. A 1 5/8 merged header system that works with heater boxes. Now just try to find 1 5/8 " heater boxes (yes, Gene Berg sells them...but the price!).
Ron
Go the the very bottom of the page
store.cip1.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=cali&Category_Code=18-01-06

I had a pair of the Gene Berg type and I have to tell you the header that you were obligated to buy for it was pure crap. It was the poorest part fit I have seen. The heater boxes were OK though and I seriously wished they sold them by thenselves because for our applications the header would work with a lot of work and poorly at best.

I had my 1 5/8" heater boxes made. My fabricator cut open a stock pair and put in 1 5/8" tubing. It was very time consuming and very expensive. Also, the header and j tubes had to be heavily modified to work. My full system, including ceramic coating cost approximately $1800!!
Ron

I just don't see how it's worth setting up a system over 1.5" unless your running 48 IDA's, big cam and large heads. I'm sure you get a little more power but only above 5k and it's probably only 3-5 hp, not worth it. With the money it takes to get a system like that one could've gotten a turbo. I understand the need just not the expense. One thing also to remember is that most aftermarket VW headers are designed to go under the shroud of a beetle so that header on our car will sit too far down and will scrape over a nickel sized bump, what a drag!

J-P

Jean-Paul, larger displacement VW type 1 engines (2,110, 2,165, 2,276) normally need the 1 5/8" primary tubes to keep the head temperatures down (less restrictive). Even a "performance built" 1,915 or 1,955 engine may need a 1 5/8" system. A 2,332 or 2,387 will probably require a 1 3/4" primary tube system.

A lot of the cost came from fabricating the heater boxes. Even if I went with the turbo I'd still want heat. Even though the turbo kit is approximately $2000, you can bet your bottom dollar the final bill will be a lot higher.
Ron

Yup,

Turbos can be expensive, I agree. As for the 1.5" header size, I agree 1 5/8 is better for a 2110 but not by much. I read a Hot VW's story about a 2007 engine build. They ran 1.5" headers on an engine with 48 IDA's with 38 vents, Engle 125 cam with ratio rockers. That engine with the small exhaust put out a good 145 hp at 6K. They also had a dyno sheet that showed peak HP was at 6K so the exhaust was not slowing this motor down. They even had test results with dual and single mufflers hooked up to this engine and there was no diff. in power on the dyno chart. So....what I'm thinking is that even though my motor is larger than that, the cam isn't and my 44' Webers are much smaller than what they are running. I think by seeing this kind of info. points out that a bigger exhaust is not really needed unless your driving hard all the time. As for head temps., I'm running @ 300 deg. commonly at 70 mph, no problems. I did my research on what my engine needed and I got a great muffler system that looks great, sounds great and performs great at way less than modifying an existing header. Am I loosing power, yes, but only a couple of HP if that. So if I lost 5 hp (at most) because of a header than I'm fine with that if that five HP would've cost me a 1200 more than my existing setup. So @ 240 dollars per hp at 6k RPM's, it's just not worth it. If you look at the turbo setup it's only $20 per hp figuring that it will get you 100 hp @ two thousand dollars. Anyway that's how I see it.

J-P

If I had it all over to do again I'd probably go with a 1 1/2" dual muffler system like the one sold by CSP. I agree that the small gain in horsepower is not really worth the extra money. When I priced out a CSP system (in Canadian funds) it worked out to between (not ceramic coated) $1100 to $1200 Canadian, including duty, and 14.5% taxes!! My custom system was supposed to cost me (not ceramic coated) around $1200. Ceramic coating the entire system cost me around $350. Either way, it was going to be expensive in Canadian funds! My builder has put together turbo motor in the past and he estimated that it would have cost me $3500 to get the turbo kit into Canada.
Ron
(Message Edited 6/21/2003 11:56:03 AM)

Don't worry Ron, I went through a full header system that cost some money before I got the CSP. I think I spent four hundred dollars on it and it only stayed on the car one month. I've been through this like you, spending unecessary money on a header/muffler combo. Thankfully I found the CSP setup as I'm sure I would've had to modify something that would've cost big $$$. At the end of the day you got a setup that works great for you and you should be proud of that. Some things are just not easy but you followed through and got the job done. If there was a 1 5/8th header system out there that simply bolted on I woulve gone that route myself.

J-P

Jean Paul

have you seen David Dowling's exhaust system? If so would you now prefer his syatem over yours or vice versa? Like you, I'm on my third bolt on system and still not satisfied. So, I'm trying to decide on a new and hopefully better system. Any further advice?

Anybody use the system put out by John connelly at aircooled.net? Will it fit under our cars without scraping? I think I am going this route. I hope`he will take it back if it doesn't fit

Richard,

I just took a look at Davids setup for the muffler...
I'm guessing that is an A1 system. I'd say that this is the best setup for ground clearance and performance that I've seen so far. I like how far it sits up under the body and how the collector is nice and long for good flow.

The only downside I can see about this system is the huge muffler that blocks the valve covers (neccesitating removal of the exhaust to adjust the valves) and how it looks for replicating a 356 exhaust. I think both of these could be taken care of if discussed with the exhaust builder.

The CSP is not AS good in ground clearance or performance (although I've never tested it) for a larger 2000cc+ motor as it only uses 1.5" tubes but then again maybe it doesn't matter as it's almost impossable to get heater boxes larger than 1.5" anyway. The CSP also has two nice exhaust pipes that exit just under the rear bumper that looks pretty authentic and the mufflers are placed so you can get to the vlaves without popping off the mufflers. Ground clearance is good but I have scraped the exhaust a couple of times but nothing to worry about. Before I had a Kymco header on the car, had it modified to get the collector up from the ground and still that thing scraped all the time. That header lasted for two weeks b4 I took it off.

If you want all out performance and have heater boxes larger than 1.5" (CSP also sells 1.5" heater boxes) then go with the A-1.

If you want an authentic look , want to get to the valves, are using 1.5" heater boxes and have an engine @ or below 2110 go for the CSP. Just my two cents.

I just found out about this website a couple of weeks ago, and have been muddling through all these speedster issues on my own up here in the Bay Area(S.F.) for quite a while. That being said, Exhaust system! I built a streetable 2110 this year and like a lot of you had trouble with the exhaust system. I'll make a long story short. I ordered the Gene Berg 1 5/8" merged heater box system, after installing it, and having the header collector almost drag on the ground, I sent the header and muffler back to Berg for a refund, but kept the heater boxes, I think they were made in Denmark. Then I looked around the area for a competent header-muffler guy(sanderson headers is in the area, but could not help me). I found a craftsman at a local muffler shop who fabricated a header and a tuck away exhaust system. You can bearly see the system from the rear of the of the car, I painted it flat black, and I don't have to take it off to adjust the valves. These headers are not that difficult to fabricate, some off the shelf manderal bends and a collector. The exhaust system wasn't exactly cheap though.

Joe, I'm in the bay area....where did you have the work done, and if you can write without your wife seeing.....What was the approx cost?



Gclarke The vacaville guy"

Joel,
Can you post PICs of your header and heater boxes? A lot of systems say 1-5/8", yet the header a mostly 1-5/8" but the heater boxes are 1-1/2"!
Thanks,
Tony
LVWOODGOD
AKA SPEEDY57TUB

Ron OBlack,
I a previous post you mentioned:
"If I had it all over to do again I'd probably go with a 1 1/2" dual muffler system like the one sold by CSP."

I musta missed out on the def of the TLA. What/Who is CSP.
I'm looking to upgrade my exhaust system and I don't want to give up any ground clearance. I'm running the dual exhaust that came from Kirk at Vintage. So I'd like to look at a CSP.

Thanks,
Greg B.

Greg, If you want to take a look at another exhaust system check out my file. I took Kirk's idea and re did it in 1 5/8" tubing, with 1 5/8" heater boxes, and a 1 5/8" Thing header, which is what Kirk uses only in 1 1/2" tubing. Both the Thing header and the heater boxes are available from Kymco at (888) 321 3560. The thing header has more ground clearance than standard VW headers, while still providing an extractor system. The mufflers I used are Magnaflow. Eddie

Greg, here is the site for the CSP exhaust system:
www.csp-shop.de/cgi-bin/shop2/shop_main.cgi?func=start&wkid=64270126945

Eddie, where did you get the 1 5/8" heater boxes...Gene Berg?

Ron

Sorry Ron, too much eggnog, the original system from VS was 1 3/8", and my system now is 1 1/2". I did see 1 5/8" boxes advert. from Bug Pack I think, check Hot VW's. Happy New Year. Eddie

Tony Garcia, Gary Clark
Here are photographs of my exhaust system. Yes these are 1 5/8" heater boxes, which I got from Gene Berg. The exhaust system supplied by Berg that I did not use, after the collector, was 1 7/8" system, I used a 2" system, which I deemed satisfactory for the RPM range of the engine, approx. 6000 RPM. Since I used dual valve springs in this engine and wanted to check adjustment frequently, it was important to me that I did not have to take the exhaust system apart to do this. With this custom system I don't have to. My last header, which was only painted, was 7 years old when I replaced it and was still in excellent condition, so I saw no need for ceramic coating. I wanted it flat black anyway, more stealth. As far as cost goes, the heater boxes(which I purchased in a complete system and then separated) ended up costing me about $450. The custom header and exhaust system cost about $750, and was fabricated by Eric at 50/50 Muffler in Belmont, Ca. I don't know if he wants to do another one but give him a call. Joel

Joel, your system looks something like mine. I had a pair of stock heater boxes enlarged to 1 5/8" to match my system. My pipe runs across the back of the motor, just in front of the tranny, and then turns to exit out the back. If I had it to do again I'd use a muffler with an entry and exit on the same end, and save all the cost in fabricating and tubing. I had my system ceramic coated (after picture was taken) because I do not want to pay to get this done again. Very expensive.
How do you like your GB boxes?
Ron

Nice, nice! I wonder if I can make my own heater boxes. MMM, I got some ideas.... ;^)