16" Wide 5 possibility

Yeah, Danny, 15" tire choices certainly aren't what they used to be. I imagine (once I get the beast on the road) that eventually I'll be replacing the 15" Fuchs that are on the car now with 16's (been on the look out the last couple of swap meets, but haven't seen any for sale, let alone at the deal I want) for that very reason. I'm surprised that none of the Speedster/Spyder manufacturers haven't undertaken this, as it would be in their best interests, I think. As far as I know there aren't any made, other than some one-off and customs (the Bivens being one example); a good place to ask would be the Samba's "Custom Wheel/Tire" forum.

 

As for what will fit, with the right backspacing (in the rear) so you clear the fenders, the rim tire combo can go all the way to 1/2" short of the spring plate bolts. So, whatever you can stuff in there. How wide are the rims that are on the back now? How much further can a rim/tire go in before hitting anything? How much fender clearance does the outside of the rim/tire combo have? If there's nothing in 16" available, I guess having a pair widened to the inside is the way to go; I had it done to a pair of 4 1/2" Sprintstars, and with short (to '66) swingaxles, the new 6" Sprintstars and 185/70's tucked under the rear fenders very nicely. Yoda out (for now).

 

 

I just went online and found two great handling summer tires in a 195/55-16 size.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I like the TR-1 a lot.  A friend had them on his supercharged Miata and the car handled very well.

I'd really like to move up to a 16" rim, but as you two mentioned there are very few 16" rims that will fit our cars.

Danny, you need wide 5s, which makes it even harder.  At least I can buy a set of 16" Fuchs wheels.  The only problem is 195/55s may not clear my rear fenders.

 

There's a device on the market that mounts to your hub and can be adjusted to whatever wheel/tire size you plan on purchasing, including offset.  When set up you can then see if it will rub on anything.

Summit did sell it and it would be well worth the money (I think it was in the $100 to $150 range).

Buying a set of expensive wheels and tires and not having them fit would be a real bummer.

We're at a point where 15" summer tires are unavailable, stupid-expensive, or both. My concern with 16" is that we're living in a world where they will be obsolete soon as well.

 

Laying that fear aside,-- I like the idea of a 16" wide 5 a lot. I would worry about weight made from steel-- I'd bet a 16"x 7" steel rim would weigh a LOT. Aside from about 5 people on this forum, there's not going to be much of a market for them, no matter what they are made out of. I hope I'm wrong, but it looks to me like steel wheels in batches of less than 1000 or so are going to cost very nearly what alloy wheels in batches of 4 would, so having them made seems counterproductive. If they are $400 each, the market for a 30 lb steel rim gets pretty slim, especially in comparison to the market (and margins) on a $700 16" x 7" 15 lb alloy rim. If a guy has $1600 to spend on steel rims (instead of $300 for 15"), he's likely to just pony up the extra $500 for something really nice. Steel wheels require production capabilities, alloy wheels require a CNC big enough. Alloy is just better suited to small-batch fabrication.

 

What we really need is a stream of good, classic, sticky 15" summer tires. They are made in other parts of the world, but not sold here. The Vredisteins I ordered are about $100 ea. in a V-rated tire. The same time is made with an H-rating for $15 ea. less, but the importer isn't bringing any over. He's BARELY bringing the V-tires over (my 4 tires consumes his entire order of 196/60/15s).

 

I'm not interested in unidirectional, square-shouldered 15" A/S tires like the Falken tires my friends from Canada like. Marty's 15" Avon's are a true track-tire, but are only offered in a very few sizes (none of which match up well with what I want).

 

It's becoming a problem.

Exactly why I am not going with 15" wheels on my new build.  I want to be able to choose a darned good performance tire.

Somebody is now making replica Pre A 16's. I read all about it on the Registry. 1 manufacturer who sells then to all the venders. He might be convinced to make them in other widths and offsets. He posted in a thread over there. You can research all you want but you have to be a member to post...

There is a company in Iowa that has been making wheels for 22 years. They look to be available in various widths(whole inches only) and various backspacing. Around $200 a pop. No slots but nice, light(10 to 12lbs.), strong, racing wheels. Perfect for my needs.

 

https://www.realwheel.net/products.php?catid=15

 

They are also available in 16" but in American wide5.......for sprint car use I believe.

 

 

 

 

Bob, what size wheel are you going with?

 

There are still a number of high performance tires made in 15s, but they're all 50 series or lower.  195/50, which is a common size for Miatas,  makes the diameter too small for our cars.

With my 901 5 speed I could probably get away with a 50 series tire, but then my speedo would be out and my sump would be an inch closer to the ground.

 

Ron.

 

Based on my plans for the build, a 17" wheel is being considered.

 

 

17s.....that's interesting.  Any particular style you have in mind?

Henry has met a fellow who makes Fuch replicas in 17" and 18".

I'm running 17x8s, but mine is a wide body.

Tires are 225/45ZR17 94W

I searched the Registry, but a link would help dsrtfox. I found nothing in my search.

RE SIZE	SERVICE INDEX	RIM CHOICE	RIM USED	MEASURED AT		DIAMETER		SECTION		TREAD		REVOLUTIONS
				PSI	BAR	INS	MM	INS	MM	INS	MM	MILES	KM
165/70R10	72H	4.0 - 5.5	5	30	2.1	19.4	493	6.5	165	5.2	131	1039	646
175/70R13	82H	4.5 - 6.0	5	30	2.1	22.85	580	6.9	175	4.9	125	883	549
185/70R13	86H	4.5 - 6.0	5.5	30	2.1	22.8	579	7.3	186	5.5	139	885	550
185/70R14	88H	4.5 - 6.0	5.5	30	2.1	24.6	625	7.7	195	5.7	146	820	509
155R15	82H	4.0 - 5.0	4.5	30	2.1	24.95	634	6.2	158	4.3	110	808	502
215/60R15	94V	6.5 - 7.5	6.5	30	2.1	25	635	8.7	222	7.1	180	807	501
175/70R15*	86H	4.5 - 6.0	5	30	2.1	25.05	636	7.16	182	6.41	163	805	500
185/70R15**	89V	4.5 - 6.0	6	30	2.1	25.35	644	7.79	198	6.45	164	796	494
225/60R15	96V	6.0 - 8.0	6.5	30	2.1	25.7	653	9.13	232	8.07	205	785	488
225/65R15	99V	6.0 - 8.0	6.5	30	2.1	26.7	678	9.1	231	7.2	182	756	470
245/60R15	101V	7.0 - 8.5	7	30	2.1	26.7	678	9.8	250	8.4	214	756	470
205/70R15	96V	5.0 - 7.0	6	30	2.1	26.6	676	8.4	213	6.3	160	758	471
215/70R15	98V	5.5 - 7.0	6.5	30	2.1	26.7	678	9	229	6.9	176	756	470
275/55R15	104V	8.0 - 10.0	8.5	30	2.1	26.95	685	11	280	9.2	234	748	465
295/50R15	108V	8.5 - 10.5	9.5	30	2.1	26.95	685	12	305	10	255	748	465

 

The chart above is of the Avon CR6ZZ that Stan mentioned earlier.  I put in red the ones that would work best on our cars.  They are bar none the best tire on the market for performance and classic looks but are priced accordingly.   I am running the 175/70's. 

 

Don't let the size fool you the 175 puts down 6.41 inches of tread on the pavement and the 185 puts down even more.  If someone could run the 215/60's with 7.1 inches of tread that would be awesome.  Like Stan said these are road legal DOT street approved racing tires and having a tread wear rating of 80.  My Pirelli P4's had a tread wear of almost 800.  So it's obvious that one is made for performance and the other for longevity.  These tires are only for the sickest of sick as they cost 269.00 a piece for the 175's.  In addition, under spirited driving will only last 10-11K miles before needed to be replaced.  Your milage may vary:-)  

If those last 10k mi on a car with -4* of rear camber, I'll eat my hat.

 

I gotta' drive it with those tires, Marty. 

Iozzio?

Wow, those 175s are only 1 mm narrower than the 185s.

Ron, the 175 used to be the 185 but they thought it was a tad too small so they made the 185 wider as you see in the chart (.63 inch)

$269?!  YOW!  I think I'll go with the Vredesteins at $152 from Summit Racing in that size.

Hmm, thanks Marty. Maybe another set of 4.5 and 5.5 wide5s and those Avons is my ticket for track use? I could do that for say $1400 or less. I have to give my friend a call who runs a tire shop. He offered to get me some at cost. Wonder if he deals in Avon? Wish wish wish!

That's for the Sprint Classic tire. Apples/oranges.

Right with you Stan. I want super sticky. Then I can start breaking trans stuff. That's what happens when you get good traction, stuff starts breaking! Speed costs money. How fast do you wanna go?

Ron, here's your tire sizing/fitment device:

 

http://www.jegs.com/i/Percys/760/01201/10002/-1

Ok, I've been doing a bit more research. On a Spyder, you need to use stock 4.5" wheels in front and stock 5.5" wheels in the rear. This is a wide5, short rear axle setup, with CSP front brakes, which add 3/8" of track each side in the front.

 

So backspacing/offset are critical as the wheels have to be just right and are different front/rear. I have been looking at a bunch of tires, but these come pretty close to the Avons but are way cheaper and more available in the U.S., Toyo Proxes R1R:

 

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Toyo&tireModel=Proxes+R1R&sidewall=Blackwall&partnum=955VR5PR1R&tab=Sizes

 

Size is 195/55/15, wear is 140, stickier than any street tire, but not quite as gummy as the Avon at 80. These are about an inch shorter, but that means that the car would sit about a 1/2" lower at the track, not a problem.

 

The only rough part is the front rims. The center needs to be pushed out about 3/4" which requires grinding, truing, and rewelding. The 195 needs a 5.5 rim, the 4.5 would be too narrow. But the stock 5.5" would stick out from the fenders almost an inch. So if I can find someone to do this, or I'll do it myself and tack them, then have someone TIG it, it's a go. $270 for the rims shipped(5.5" stock steelies all around) and the 4 tires for $500 plus about $50 shipping. So I'd be good to go on the track for around $800 and change plus welding the front wheel centers. Way cheaper, which is good, because it's only for occasional use, and ends up being half the cost of the other way I was thinking above.

 

There is room to move the tires to the inside a little. The only drawback is increased turning circle, but that doesn't matter much at the track as you're never at full lock(famous last words!)

Stockton Wheels in Stockton, CA can recenter a set of 5.5s, Danny. 

 

Good find on the track tires, BTW.

Yes, nice but too short for everyday use and they will not look good on old school rims like wide 5's or my 944 T-spares.  They would look good on Fuchs. 

That's the point Marty. They are for track use ONLY. It's all well and good to look fast, and not be, but another thing entirely to be fast and not be concerned with the look. I really don't care how they look, for the street I have Bridgestone  RE960s and 4.5/5.5 wide5 steelies, which look perfect for me.

 

The shorter tire(by only 1" total, or about 5%) also gives a slightly shorter final drive, to better accelerate out of the corners.

 

I found a couple online tools to play around with as well. The first is an old setup/new setup direct comparison. The second is an offset/backspacing converter.

 

http://www.willtheyfit.com/ind...th2=6&offset2=38

 

http://www.ccwheel.com/technical-converter.php

The Morgan guys use Stockton to replace their stock 16-inch wheel centers with the 4x130 VW center, full-welded. Not cheap, I am told but way stronger than the Morgan wheels and so better for the Vintage Racing duty. "And the bolt pattern is the same," the Morgan racing guy says.

 

This of course means that Morgan 16s are, as stock, exactly the right pattern for the 4-bolt VWs. 

 

Given that most Morgan people convert to wires, it stands to reason that, somewhere, there might just be a stash of multi-hole, 16x5 (or so) steel rims that would go right on the 4-bolt wheel Speedsters. 

 

 

 

No help to Danny, I know, but he can take care of himself.

 

 

New/newer tire found. Yokohama S.drive, Ultra High Performance Summer tire.

 

Sizing would be 185/55 and 205/50, which would fit on my stock 4.5/5.5 wheels.

 

$372 delivered from the rack of tire. Extra set of steel wide5, $280 from cip1. So track tires for $652 plus mount and balance. Call it 7 bills.

 

Yes, these are shorter than my stock tires. Yes, the 185 is supposed to fit a 5 inch or wider rim, but my 185/65 is supposed to as well and works just fine on 4.5.

 

Marty, I'd love to be able to but those Avons, but my total cost for wheels and tires is less than 3 Avons alone. What I'd really like to do is move to Europe where our sizes are still available without getting it in the end. But for now, I'll work with what I can get.

Oh yeah, a link would maybe help!

 

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/...mp;tireModel=S.drive

 

Opinions?

Shorter sidewalls will make those tires a little tougher to fit on the narrow rims. 

 

Assuming they'll fit (and I suspect you'll be able to get them on there), the sidewall angles might not be ideal for hi-po driving.

 

If it was me I'd consult with some racing dudes before splurging. I'd pay special attention to what the vintage race dudes had to say, since they're always running up against these kinds of problems. 

 

Good luck!

 

(Hey, p.s.--for that same 7 bills you could prolly get my half brother to airbrush that lightning-girl-on-a-pegusus graphic directly on your car's hood! That would make you much cooler and add like 10 horse...OK, just that one big horse...to your ride. Think about it!)

http://forum.porsche356registr...hilit=16+inch+wheels

 

Danny P, sorry I haven't visited this thread in months... 

dsrtfox, that is nice and all, but 3.25" rims are not what is needed.

 

Ed, funny, but umm, you first?

 

4.5 will be just fine with a 185/55 tire.

I know but it wouldn't be hard to find the manufacturer and see what he would be willing to do...

 

Curt in Arizona

Hi Danny

 

Just want to let you know that the S-Drive Yokos are one of my favorites!  they have a wide shoulder for their size but stick like crazy so a great option for space limited applications like say non modified Intermeccanica 6 powered cars!

 

 

Thank you Henry, it is always nice to hear from you. Thanks for sharing you experience(as opposed to others with just an opinion).