1.8L water cooled (105Hp) For IM 1959 356 Roadster Build?

My wife is going to be building a 1959 356Roadsterthrough Intermeccanicca in Vancouver.We are faced with the decision to go water cooled or the type1 VW engine. Each have their advantages ,the water cooled engine seems to be what were leaning towards. Take note, mechanical I'm not!! so this might have a bearing. Although a friend said using Kadron or Dellerto carbs over the dual webbers would ease the maintenance. Intermeccanica says the will be producing
about 50% water cooled over the next 2 years. Any opinions or advice?

If you are not into wrenching I would suggest going with the water cooled configuration. This way it can be serviced just about anywhere.
Henry is a stand up guy you can trust - IM is one heck of a car no matter which way you do. ~Alan

Karen, been there, done both; I've had both type 1 air-cooled and modern water-cooled. If you are not a big time wrench, go water-cooled. I've driven my little car over 20K miles with almost no maintenance. I love the type 1 engines, but keeping them going is just not my cup of tea. Consider carefully what you are looking for. Henry is a stand up guy and somebody I would trust to help you make the right selection.
Hoss

I ordered the first 1.8T version and am eagerly awaiting it. When making my decision, I road tested both the SAW/SAS Subaru powered mid engined car and the non-turbo 1.8L car from IM. I went with IM because I liked the rear bias of the weight and the true to original interior. With the SAS car you give up the rear seat to get mid engine balance. If at all possible, arrange with Henry to drive both the air and liquid cooled cars before deciding. The summer BBQ would be a great time to do this.

My choice to go to the turbo involved several months of engineering and several more thousands of US pesos and was NOT because the non-turbo version was deficient an any way. The non turbo 1.8L car from IM pulls strong and cruises at high speed effortlessly.

And, like others have said here, Henry is a straight shooter and will not steer you wrong.

Tomm

Karen's Husband,

I have a 2001 IM with a 2275 type 1 engine. I love it! The sound, the power, the carb balancing, heck, I love everything about my car. In fact, you may have seen it in the Alberta Show program, the black car in the sunflower field?

Over the past 7 years I have had the speedster, Henry and I have become the best of friends. He is a man of principle and integrity and he goes out of his way to help replica speedster/roadster owners.

As big a fan as I am of the air cooled engine, if I had the chance to do another car, as much as I'd love a 2.4L 911 engine, I think I'd go with a water cooled engine. I'd probably try to talk Henry into a 2.0 Audi turbo or something close. There are a couple of reasons for this decision, the first is complete reliability, the second is ease of registration in CA, and then there is the comfort factor of lots of heat and great air conditioning. I drive my car in the winter, temperatures in the low 30s F, with the top down. Heat is good.

My wife and I will be coming from Sacramento CA for the BBQ in July. I hope you two can make it over. We'd love to meet you.

Dale,

I will see you at the BBQ! This time with a car.

Tomm

As mentioned above, air cooled cars (with carburetors) usually need constant tinkering, and while driving you always need to keep one eye on the temperature gauge.
And don't forget that water cooled means lots of heat for those chilly days. If I were to purchase a new IM I'd mostly likely go with the water cooled set-up.
The one thing I'd be concerned about is extra weight in the rear (if, in fact, the water cooled engine is heavier than an air cooled engine). Our cars are already 'ass happy', and any extra weight back there would only make the handling worse.

Ron,

When I drove John's 1.8L IM last summer it did not feel ass heavy at all. Very nice on the corners and pretty much like an early 911 in my opinion.

Tomm

While I know my way around the air cooled engine and the satisfaction that syncing dual carburetors can bring I chose the water cooled option myself. First for the heat, second for the maintenance on the engine. If there

I guess I'm a deserter here - while I like a Subbie powered Speedster and think it is a great match (on a flared car). I still think a replicar should pretty much replica the orginal - in sound and look of the engine too (plus that nasty habit of marking its territory). If I were putting out over $30k for a new replica that I expected my wife to be safe in and I wasn't willing to work on it(plus I lived in other than a sun shine state) - I'd be looking at the Audi TT or VW new beetle convertible if I wanted a classic attention attracking look. I'd be on a new Miata (or whatever the number used is) or a BMW Z3/Z4 if I had performance and long distance driving in mind. Not to throw a wet blanket on your dreams BUT look at all the low mileage Speedys that are up for sale after just a few months.

At least 50% of this hobby (at least for me, anyhow) is dealing with and improving a powerplant that is basically a 70 year old design. An air-cooled VW engine will never approach the kind of turn-key reliability of a modern, EFI-equipped, water cooled engine. I don't want it to, because I relax by spending large amounts of time on things that nobody else knows or cares about. That's what makes it a hobby for me.

If a guy isn't "mechanically inclined", this is going to be a big hang-up. Most informed buyers come into ownership with at least somewhat realistic expectations concerning the car's usability as a transportation device. However, very few understand the challenge the ACVW lump under the deck-lid will provide. Seriously- valve adjustments every 3000 miles? Vapor lock? Plugged idle jets? Points? Watching oil temperatures? I haven't done any of this stuff in any daily driver for 30 years, and the cars I had before that cost $50.

Most guys don't want to work on their own stuff any more. That's OK. If you don't- then listen to Henry and Dale and most everybody else. The 1.8L water-cooled mill will be perfect for you. There will be plenty of other compromises owning the car. If working on an engine (a lot) doesn't really trip your trigger, then it would be fool-hardy to set yourself up for disappointment.

Good luck.

All,

To characterize those of us who choose the water cooled modern engines as seeking a reliable power plant is probably universally correct. But to imply we do not want to tinker and make our engines better is not a universal characterization. I started with the 1.8 20v engine and specified significant changes. I look forward to moving the HP from 200-ish to 250 or higher with chip mods that I do and with engine mods that I will do as time and money permit. There is a very large community of 1.8T tuners out there from who we can draw knowledge.

I would never characterize a water cooled 356 as a faithful replica.

My 2 cents.

Tomm

Tomm-

I didn't mean to suggest that having a water-pumper precluded "tinkering"- however, the ability (or desire) isn't a requirement for ownership of a car with a modern drivetrain.

However, it's almost impossible to get by with an air-cooled VW engine if a guy isn't at least somewhat mechanically inclined. Lots of guys aren't, and don't want to be. In this situation, a modern engine would be a good idea.

There are other good reasons to go this way, even if you DO like to "tinker". A modern engine makes sense for 99% of the world, which is why they are in modern cars.

Karen, et al;

This topic falls under the 'Different Strokes' or 'Whatever Floats Your Boat' category. FWIW, I offer my perspective;

As an old-school car-guy, the Speedster experience to me (in its most basic form) is all about the view of the world through a Speedster windshield and the feel & sound of a German aircooled engine.

I have an older Speedy mfg by VS (1995) with a modest 1835cc w/Kadrons (maintenance has been minimal with only routine tune-ups & oil changes). We have had no problem either with leisurely cruising the coastline or maintaining highway speeds for sustained periods.

This car has been a daily driver from day 1, my wife & I have driven it up & down California in all kinds of weather and have loved every minute of the travel adventure. The odometer shows 93,000 kilometers (58K miles).

If you want no-tinkering, greater creature comforts plus greater apprehension about theft/replacement, get something along the lines of a Miata, BMW-Z, Pontiac Soltice, Nissan-Z, Boxster, etc..

There is nothing wrong or uncool about personalizing with the myriad power-plant options, but to me the true Speedster experience is powered by a German aircooled engine, and all that entails.

P.S. - my two most favorite SOC cars are Dale Bates' (black w/Fuchs) and Jim Ward's (R.I.P.) red w/Bivens!

Peace - Out!

Thanks for the nice compliment Jim. I am sorry I will not make Paso this year, I have to go to Maui with my wife. I love her and all, but I'd really rather be hanging out (so to speak) with the guys.

Next time we get together, I'll give you some seat time in the car. That is what I did for Jim Ward the year he drove his black Vintage to Knotts.

I am about to leave the speedster ownership experience behind for a while (in that I have sold my car) but I thought I could add my 2 cents here as well. I have found that the extra money you would spend on a water cooled engine and the custom build etc, you could easily afford the shop rate of a good air cooled mechanic for anything that should come up. Also there are a couple of other points that should be noted :

1) There are a million other moving parts that will need tinkering with on these cars. Water cooled or not, they are not up to the reliability standards of the modern cars. So don't get into this thinking you will get in and drive every time you turn the key.
2) These are not daily drivers to 99 percent of the sane people out there, so a mechanic or tinkering should not be a huge worry for the owners. It just means you call AAA or you simply don't get to go out in the car till its fixed by you or your overpaid mechanic.

I have owned way more cars than my wife likes to even contemplate, and I am still just getting started. I will have to say that of them all, this car has been the easiest to own and has by far been more fun than any of them. Enjoy it if you got it.

James - I agree with your profound comment!

Dale - I look forward to that ride in your car, albeit with some trepidation; I have a feeling a ride in your car would totally plant that wicked seed in my feeble brain for MORE SPEEDY POWER!!!

P.S. - try as you may to not be too miserable in Hawaii! LOL

Peace - Out!

Ive been reading this thread with great interest. The propspective owner should ask how will this car be used? Daily/weekend? 3rd or 4th car, only to be taken out in sunshine. Long weekend trips maybe? I respect everyones opinion, I love the tradition of the Air-cooled motor in these cars, and went with an untraditonal Porsche 3.2, because... just because. I love to tinker, but this drivetrain goes to the pros when it needs something. I may use it 4-6000 miles per year. Since delivery in January, I put on 817 miles, including today's top down jaunt. I LOVE the sound, the torque, how it handles and stops. How do you like your power served up?