1985 factory widebody cabriolet

I'm looking at an 85 factory widebody 911 Carrera Cabriolet with 98,000 miles on it. This was the factory wide body 930 turbo look without the turbo. Everything looks to be in pretty good shape, but I really don't have any idea what the price range on this car should be. I'd appreciate information from anyone who has knowledge about these cars. Thank you.
Troy

troy, i had an 86 Carrera that had the factory engine with the upgraded cam followers/tensioners. im not sure if 85 had them or not but it was a weak link in the motor right in that time period.

Troy, the car you describe is referred to as a M-491 car. A good site to check out is Pelican Parts Forum. Lots os info on 911s in general, prices, model differences etc. A great book to have if you are looking at 911 cars is Peter Zimmerman's book about them The Used 91 Story. Available from Amazon. Or call me and I'll tell you what I know.

Come to the dark side Troy...

85 has tensioners and a 915 transaxle (nothing wrong with that). Valve jobs pretty common 95-120K. Far fewer head stud issues than the 3.0 but there are occasional problems so have a PPI done. This is the 3.2 engine and is quite decent stock but gets pretty lively with exhaust and a Steve Wong chip. Every used one I've gotten my hands on has had at least two loose intake manifold nuts. Stupid barrel nut things.

angela

And the 915 transaxle...I got a nice '86 (non-wide body) with 64,000 miles but needed some big bucks to get the tranny right. '87's and up have the G-50 transaxle. So, double check the tranny.

Troy,
I was looking at these a couple of months ago myself. The rule of thumb I determined from my shopping was to just add $10K for the M491 option, i.e. a clean standard body 1986-88 at that time was going for 16-20K. A clean wide body was selling for 26-30K. The ones over 30K, unless extremely clean and under 75,000 miles were not selling. Great looking cars but my lack of experience with real P-cars scared me away.

OK. Thanks.

1. Which of these do you think is the best deal, assuming they are all in good condition?

2. Which could be easily resold for the purchase price if needed?

They all have air and full power options.

1. 1985 Red wide body. $27,000 98,000 miles


2. 1987 dark blue wide body, white interior $27,000 84,000 miles


3. 1985 911 Red regular body, grey interior $18,000 51,500 miles

Troy, I'm not a porsche guy, but it seems to me the decision should be based on drivetrain condition...reading this forum over the years tells me each of the motors have issues that need to be addressed, so the one that has had this done should be the better deal...
the bodies all look the same basically...I like lower mileage personally, especially on an exotic, so that also comes into play..

Hi Troy, my guess is you'll pick the dark blue one! Dave

Do you have access to a test drive on these? That should tell you plenty. #2 should have the g-50 transaxle and hydraulic clutch. #1 looks a little rough around the edges and #3 isn't a wide body and needs euro headlights (which aren't cheap). #2 also has some custom fenders and ground effects. So I see an apple an orange and, I don't know, maybe a tangerine here. Finally, personally I'm not into white interiors. My 2 cents.

Please assume that they are all in equally good shape mechanically and cosmetically when you answer the questions. Number 1 just needs to be washed and number 3 is not a wide body.

Then I think #3. Low miles, good price for a cab.

#2 if money is not an object. I don't like red cars so this would be the one for me. Lose the wheels, put on Fuchs. We've got a set of these wheels and they are really heavy... Make sure it is actually an M491. The side slats were something that was big in the 80's - alot of these got made into a wide body (like ours) by a handy-dandy body man.

#3 is the low miles and lower dollar one. But it's not an M491. If you are lookin for an M491, then pass on this inspite of the low miles. If red doesn't bother you and you're not hung up on the M491, then this is the one.

angela

OK. That's the kind of feedback I was looking for. Now let me cut to the chase and add this plan into the decision.

1. Which one of the three should I buy if my plan is to make it look like the picture below and then flip it.

2. How much do you think it would sell for?



Important addtional information.

The dark blue car has steel flares installed by the "dealer" and it is not an M491. According to the owner, they are the factory flares that were installed on factory slant nose 911s.

I would not do anything to the engine or transmission and it would most likely not have a roll bar.

It would have Fuchs and the same tail currently on which ever car I bought.

That will not be the easy sell for you. Alot of people, myself included - absolutely hate that fender look and any gold centered wheels on a red 911 make me want to stab my eyeballs with an icepick. Even if the wheelset is expensive (and I think those are Fiske). Of course, you have wheels and if those are Fiske, they are real easy to resell.

Keep the speedster on top, go wide body below but without any non-standard openings, go with the standard turbo look. This is far more desirable and easier/quicker/more profitable to sell than any other combination of 911 speedster.

Do not cut up an M491 car. Do this to the blue car (lose the fender slats - pretty easy), or to the red #3 car. The red #3 car will give you the most profit to flip, but the blue car will be FASTER to do as you can patch the hole in the fenders very quickly and it already has the correct turbo flares. Also, the blue car is a desirable color that is less common than resale red.

angela

Troy, a M-491 is not a Carrera with wide fenders and wheels. It is a 930 with a Carrera engine. The Blue car is probably a Carrera with fat fenders. BIG difference, because the 930 has better brakes, suspension etc. Also in my opinion modifying a nice, stock, well preserved 80's 911 is a great way to make the car worth LESS than when you started. If that Red Cab with 57,000 miles is original, well documented, and clean, it is your best buy. But as soon as you do anything to it except a Wong chip, Euro headlights, or a sport muffler you are lowering the value of the car. The Blue Miami Vice Special is going to be a hard sell,even in Miami! The Red M-491 just looks a little worn in the pic, but if it is as clean and equal to the Carrera Cab mechanically it may be as good a buy. The Red M-491 is most valuable in stock body/wheel configuration. Any of these cars need to be inspected by a very experienced Porsche 911 mechanic before making an offer. A $7000-$10,000 mistake is just waiting to happen to the uninitiated 911 buyer......

Will is right, we kind of glossed over that important point. An M491 car is not just a wide body, it is the turbo body, BRAKES and SUSPENSION... As he describes, it is a turbo with an NA engine. Really don't want to cut those up... If you run into an M470 code, that's the same thing only rear spoiler delete - even rarer.

Check the option codes as the first couple of years the fender flares were welded on from the factory, only the later ones had one piece flares/quarters.

angela

Troy, after reading what Will & Angela are saying, do you think you have the stones for this....

Of course, then next fun part is the 10 large for the speedster conversion bits... I've seen that stuff blow out the door for 5K but I don't think I've seen any complete conversion go for less than 8K for a couple of years.

I dig the 911 speedster. REALLY dig it.

angela

Angela.
That is why I am really interested in a car that is already a wide body with a spoiler. Then all it takes to make it look like the $350,000 car is the tack on flares and the front airdam. That stuff is no where near $5,000.
If I went with the non-wide body 911 it would take a lot more.

Vince.
I know I can make the car look like the $350,000 car; all that takes is some cash. However, Will did sober me up when he said:

" A $7000-$10,000 mistake is just waiting to happen to the uninitiated 911 buyer...... "

I've bought two 911s in the past and did a full steel wide body conversion on one of them, but they had far fewer miles on them then the cars I am considering. To answer your question, I may not have the stones for this.

Troy, You seem to have no problems flipping Speedsters, and have a good grasp of market factors. Slow but steady wins the race.

Thanks Jim. I think you are right, "slow but steady" but that is hard when you have the fever!

Angela. Sent you an email with some questions.

Stick to speedys, I speak from much experience.

Alan.
It's driving me crazy not having anything to work on. I can't find any wide bodies anywhere and I can even find any good regular body candidates!

I just can't imagine that if I did the bolt on, cosmetic, updates to an already flared wide body 911 Cabriolet that doesn't need any engine or trans work, (to make it look like the picture below) that it wouldn't sell for at least $35,000!

If my price was less than $25,000 and I put $5,000 into it, that would be a decent profit.

The one below is priced at $350,000 and obviously is WAY over priced even with the cost of the twin turbo mega engine, but it's the look that the buyer will be mostly paying for and that look will not be hard to duplicate.

I HIGHLY respect your opinion, so please tell me what I'm not taking into consideration.

Troy-

Those Porsche folks are nuts. Seriously, seriously nuts. There's an orthodoxy even for modifications- you can't color outside of the lines, or you'll get smacked back in place.

I'm not saying you shouldn't do it- I'm saying I'd be very, very careful about what you do with a 911.

I agree with Stan, flipping a 911 is not going to be the same as flipping a Speedster. Not to mention the costs associated with it.

Based on my experience with owning several P-cars, I concur with what Stan and Rich said x3 wrt 911.

I agree that modifying the look of a 911 would most likely lower the value. Most people want original. And that miami vice special would indeed be a tough sell even in miami!

If you want to modify something, I'd get a SC, Carrera, or 964 and back-date it to a long-hood. Everybody's going nuts for replica RSRs, but the wide-butt/duck-tail thing is starting to wear thin for me.

I'd love a nice narrow-body (or subtly flared) pre-'74 long-hood (or back-dated equivalent) in a nice silver/black combination. I've been looking for 3 years. They continue to get more expensive.

... then I wander out to my garage, and find a car that gives me 99% of the pleasure, with 10% of the pain. I'll be heading out for a long day in my speedster with Jeanie in a couple of minutes.

I'd stick with wide-bodied VS cars- you've done well with them, you like them, and there's a market. If you can't find a used one, swing a deal on a "coach" or something similar from Kirk.