1989-1990 911 coupe

Does anyone know any information about these cars? Specifically the c4 models? I know that 911's in general are solid cars however I have also heard that certain years you have to be careful of due to problems with the cylinder studs etc. Any thoughts?

Angela is one of the most qualified individuals here to talk about these cars; I'm pretty sure she'll jump in sometime.

Your perty safe with any 911 that's 1978 and later, in 78' they went to the 3.0L, and the only real issue with that motor is the timing chain tensioners, which were updated in 84 i believe to the hydraulic type which you can get a retrofit kit to convert the 78+ engines for about $500. The pre 78' cars had issues with the old motors (2.7L, 2.2L); but were still a good car. I would'nt hesitate on a 89-90 911 c4 at all, very stout robust cars, maintain it religiously and it'll serve you well for many miles.

martin

They are very good cars, but I'm not a fan of the 89-93 (964) cars. They are the "tweener" cars and frankly I think they are ugly. Even though they look similar to the earlier cars, a huge majority of bits and pieces do not fit and are unique to C2/C4. The earlier cars have parts inter-changeability that is PHENOMENAL. The 964 is also completely different from the 993 cars that came later.

All of the 964 cars are 3.6 liter twin-plug engines. They are different from the 993 3.6 engines. Head stud problems are very rare, but head sealing problems are apparent on a couple of years which was practically unheard of in earlier engines. Also not a big fan of dual mass flywheels which I believe appeared in 1990. HEAVY. That said, the NA engines are 250hp, all markets. These are G50 transmissions, they are way ahead of the 915's for shifting quality and strength. Both C2 and C4 have AWESOME brakes with the C4 benefitting from 4 piston rear calipers.

Have a PPI done by someone who is very familar with THESE 964 cars, not just cars in general. Personally, I'd buy a slightly earlier 87/88/89 (there is overlap on these models) with a 3.2 and the G-50 because I love the older body-style. Or I would buy a 993 with the 272 minimum HP and much advanced suspension. That said, many people more knowledgeable than myself consider these to be among the best air-cooled 911's ever built.

angela

Call me an ignorant but I like all of them.....with a bias towards the air cooled models.

The Wrench's dad, the elderly Porsche mechanic-trainer, says the '82 911 SC is the most maintenance-free Porsche ever produced.
He also finds it to be ugly and would not own one. He describes it this way:

"(Ugliest) in comparison to the rest of the lineup, with the possible exception of the 914 cars. The early eighties 911 series look like Kermit the Frog with a swim-fin up his cloaca. Disgusting, even if you happen to LIKE Muppets."

HAHA!!! That's FUNNY Cory! Just goes to show how polarized we are by different body styles. I consider that to be the 2nd most beautiful (after the 73 and earlier long hood cars) and the 964 to be the ugliest 911!!

Swim fin up the cloaca - that guy KILLS me! Wish I could spend an afternoon talking with him. It would be an amazing and clearly amusing experience.

Oh by the way, David, the real problem cars with headstuds are the magnesium case 2.7 cars built from 1974 to 1977. Sometimes they break, but often they rip out of the case taking the threads with them... There are broken head studs appearing on the later aluminum case cars, probably due to age and corrosion, but with far less frequency than that 70's batch. We had a 3.0 82 with two broken head studs. I've heard guys talk about a very occasional 3.2 with that problem, usually a super-high miles engine. Haven't heard about it with any 3.6, but they aren't that old yet either.

Other opinions and pics: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=1d9f42606816cba3d2e4743564c42652&threadid=318832&highlight=g50+differences

angela

In the FWIW journals, someone went to press with a rating system of older Porsches, only 1-5, five being tops, and the 1981 was top scoring at 4.5. So I guess an '82 would be right up there. did '82 get burdened with that silly 55MPH speedo?

The 1989 (3,2)911 was second best in this guy's opinion. I'd only agreee if I knew the overall rating criteria, but there are more bells and whistles on an '89 so if simplicity is a factor I could see his point.

The C4 964s had trouble with their clutches and all-wheel drive stuff if I'm not mistaken. Except for the turbo model 964, I think that overall they are a bit bulbous; too much bumper and not enough fender flare to carry the visual 'weight'

70 911S
89 911
98 993

Those would be my favorite non-turbo P-cars

I had a 1988 911 for several years and I did quite a bit of research before buying it (used). I loved that car (sold it about two years ago) and would highly recommend that "era" of 911 over the 964s that followed.

As Angela posted, the 87-88-89 models had the 3.2 engines and the very nice G-50 transmission (reason alone to consider this era). The cars were bulletproof, but their air conditioning systems (if you care about that) were lame. I redid the AC on my '88 and it actually blew cold air, which for a black-on-black car in Los Angeles was kind of important.

Before making any classic 911 purchase, I'd suggest you get a copy of Randy Leffingwell's book "Porsche 911 Buyer's Guide." He goes through every year of the car - with specifics for each one (pro and con). It's a great resource. Makes your decision a much better-informed one, which is always good when it comes to used sports cars.

Paul - you named my favorite p-cars (non-turbo) in the same order... NICE! One of our 911's is an 82, no 55 speedo at least on that one. angela

You guys must be referring to the dreaded 85-mph speedo that Porsche put in all U.S.-bound cars from 1980 to 1983. (The speedometer only went to 85, even though the cars were obviously capable of much higher speeds.)

The 160-mph speedometers made their return with the changeover to the 3.2 engine in the 1984 model year.

Most 80-83 911s you'll run into have probably had the speedos swapped out to the 160-mph model, which may make the odometer's readout suspect. F.Y.I.

David, I don't know about the 911s, but I know its possible to find VW engines with a process called 'super studding' done on them. They take out the failed or worn-out head studs, tap the holes to a larger diameter and insert new studs into them. I think that's a one-time shot to extend an engine's life.
I'd think you could get that done at a shop with a high-mileage engine, if that would expand the scope of cars you're considering. You might be able to spend a whole lot less for a nicer older car with a tired powerplant.

FWIW, I really, really don't like the new ones. In fact, I think the last 911 I really did like was probably the type used in Bad Boys, with the tubbed rear and the whale tail that Mr. Sartwell likes so much. It had those long upright front fenders that terminated in headlights, the disorganized dashboard and the plate-glass-looking windscreen.
Pinache, and style. In a pool of drying mud, they stood out like big, fat ... well, I don't know. I'm not as descriptive as he is.
But I like them. The new ones look like they were designed by computers, not sculptors.
And the Cayenne is disgusting. I agree with Jeremy Clarkson. Blecch.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=584459383993113588&q=top+gear+cayenne&hl=en

"The new ones look like they were designed by computers, not sculptors."

Cory - I'm gonna have to disagree with you on that one.
I mean look at this '06 997S! This is the car I sold my '88 Carrera for...no regrets.

I gotta agree with John. That's one gorgeous car.

Cory, that's what they call case savers and they're actually very durable. Maybe that's available for Porsche cases too.

997 - THE BOMB!!! Its funny how forgetable the 996 is when it is parked next to the 997.

Cory - a common fix is time-certing the case and replacing all the studs. Makes for a significantly more expensive rebuild but makes for a really stout setup. Though the aluminum cases are pretty good and most people do just replace the studs with stock ones on a rebuild, we opted to step up on ours.

Full set of ARP headstuds, full set of time-certs and labor for the time certs. I believe that added some $1500 (by itself) to the rebuild cost... Of course, the big catch on a 911 is the fun tear down you do to GET to the headstuds $$$.

A broken headstud on a 911 engine has a repair tag that STARTS at around $3,000-4,000 (estimate). That's a pull, minimal tear-down, replacement, re-assembly and reinstall of the engine. Headstud repairs usually cost some $6,000 when done properly. That is assuming the case is NOT damaged, the bottom end is only inspected and found sound. Usually when one is broken, people will tear down to the case and replace all of them and inspect the crank in the process. Along the way, other items are usually replaced (you know, "while you're in there") such as timing chain, etc. It ads up with horrifying speed...

angela

I stand corrected, the original speedo was 85 with 55 highlighted. My targa had a turbo body and suspension and it was such a joke to look inside and see that silly-ass gauge. I had Palo Alto speedo redo the speedo to 200 MPH and the tach with the zero at 6:00 and so forth. The car itself looked fast, but wasn't by today's standards. That's the car that avoided Bambi but bounced off the freeway in doing so.

It's not good to have Jim at EASY on speed dial.

997 is the rebirth of great Porsche lines IMHO. The Boxter may as well be a Volvo (same same for the 996) and a Cayman is just too swoopy (Mazda)

Get the book mentioned. Good stuff. Buy it (the model P-car)for what suits you. A clean 911S circa 1976 with a rebuilt engine can be a thing of beauty, but you gotta lower it, paint it silver or black and go with a fibrefab exhaust (more solid than B&B)

I may be wrong about this (what are the odds?) but weren't those 85mph speedos part of the aftermath of the national 55mph speed limit mandated by Congress at that time (post gas crunch)?

David C., short of a long history of spontaneous combustion, catastrophic mechanical failure (what product-line hasn't experienced this at some point), or miserable history of reliability, buy the car that best suits your personal preference or pocketbook (and this will always be a subjective issue). As with most cars' reliability issues, proper (diligent) maintenance will be the key.

P-cars I've owned;

'57 1600 Super
'61 Super 90
'68 911S Targa (engine upgraded to '70 911S specs)
'78 911SC
'80 Weissach Edition (with 85mph speedo)
'83 Carrera

...and my favorite car, HANDS DOWN NO CONTEST, my little silver VS Speedy!!