86x94.. is this too much motor, is it driveable.
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86x94.. is this too much motor, is it driveable.
That's a Type I? You'll have a ball.
With the right gearbox, you'll be able to do a little of everything, Bob.
With the right gearbox, you'll be able to do a little of everything, Bob.
type 1?
daily driver?
climate?
That is an awefully large motor. With a guess it is a type 1 style, you will have longevity issues (that motor will not last nearly long, run nearly as cool as a 90.5 bore style) 94 makes for pretty much a thin wall of a cylinder. this - depending on geographical location, may lead to big heat disapation issues.
There are other options for higher hp.
1) perhaps a low boost (~7psi) turbo on a lower compression 90.5mm bore-based T1. dollar for dollar - this may be a viable option.
2) larger dispalcement T4. 103mm bore with a 71mm stroke (~2.3L). This size is quite popular with german tuners and has proven faily reliable.
I have no direct experience with either of these (i have a 2L T4)
You may want to search thesamaba.com in the "Performance/Engines/Racing" section for engine recepies.
daily driver?
climate?
That is an awefully large motor. With a guess it is a type 1 style, you will have longevity issues (that motor will not last nearly long, run nearly as cool as a 90.5 bore style) 94 makes for pretty much a thin wall of a cylinder. this - depending on geographical location, may lead to big heat disapation issues.
There are other options for higher hp.
1) perhaps a low boost (~7psi) turbo on a lower compression 90.5mm bore-based T1. dollar for dollar - this may be a viable option.
2) larger dispalcement T4. 103mm bore with a 71mm stroke (~2.3L). This size is quite popular with german tuners and has proven faily reliable.
I have no direct experience with either of these (i have a 2L T4)
You may want to search thesamaba.com in the "Performance/Engines/Racing" section for engine recepies.
Just make sure you license plate reads "DA BOMB"
Paul, I read that as an 86 bore and a 94 stroke. I'd guess someone already went through the engine pretty well if the numbers aren't stock but were recorded; If I got that backward, you're almost certainly right about the wall-thickness.
It's bore times pi times stroke times four, right? Something like that? (My 103.5 by 71 configuration came to 2366, but that was the first re-do of my Type IV. Now the 104 by 71 comes to 2424.)
It's bore times pi times stroke times four, right? Something like that? (My 103.5 by 71 configuration came to 2366, but that was the first re-do of my Type IV. Now the 104 by 71 comes to 2424.)
Actually, I think 86 stroke and 94 bore is what he is talking about.
94 is a common cylinder for the popular 2 liters, like a 2165, 2276, 2332. However the stroke has been historically limited by the case capacity of the OEM VW engine case. Basicically you were already carving through the case walls to relieve for swinging the 84 crank on a 2332. Now, with aftermarket aluminum cases, they come standard already stroke relieved for 86 cranks.
I am a believer that more is better. However, know why you are "going there" and for sure how you are going to "get there".
Reliability? Reliability can be the same as a basically stock 1776. But you will be doing quite a bit on tuning to keep it up on edge. Longivity? Don't expect the same as a stocker. But over 20-30K might be possible (I have 13K on my 2332 that was home built and I have been very unkind to). For guys / gals driving their sunny-day car 4-6K miles a year -- 25K miles on an engine provides years and years of right-foot gratificationl
Mark
94 is a common cylinder for the popular 2 liters, like a 2165, 2276, 2332. However the stroke has been historically limited by the case capacity of the OEM VW engine case. Basicically you were already carving through the case walls to relieve for swinging the 84 crank on a 2332. Now, with aftermarket aluminum cases, they come standard already stroke relieved for 86 cranks.
I am a believer that more is better. However, know why you are "going there" and for sure how you are going to "get there".
Reliability? Reliability can be the same as a basically stock 1776. But you will be doing quite a bit on tuning to keep it up on edge. Longivity? Don't expect the same as a stocker. But over 20-30K might be possible (I have 13K on my 2332 that was home built and I have been very unkind to). For guys / gals driving their sunny-day car 4-6K miles a year -- 25K miles on an engine provides years and years of right-foot gratificationl
Mark
Just to clarify; 94 mm cylinders have decent wall thickness; actually more than the 92's. Still, though, when boring for 94 mm's you are compromising the case's strength by removing material. If I were you I'd keep the bore at 90.5 mm and stroke it to 82 or 84 mm and that'll give you plenty of bark and keep it more reliable.
2387 would be fine, assuming it's built right.
It's 86 stroke and 94 bore. The cases are clearanced already. If you use good quality parts, you'll be fine.
The advantage to bigger displacement is you can run a motor with less mods, and get the same power as a smaller motor with lots of mods. It's not an issue of stress and strain, but rather, of drivability. A big motor with a tamer cam is nicer than a smaller motor with more cam.
Or you could do what I did. Build a 2332 with a big cam, lots of head work, etc. It goes like stink, but it's really hard to hold steady in first or second.
Oh yeah, you'll need a large oil cooler......
The advantage to bigger displacement is you can run a motor with less mods, and get the same power as a smaller motor with lots of mods. It's not an issue of stress and strain, but rather, of drivability. A big motor with a tamer cam is nicer than a smaller motor with more cam.
Or you could do what I did. Build a 2332 with a big cam, lots of head work, etc. It goes like stink, but it's really hard to hold steady in first or second.
Oh yeah, you'll need a large oil cooler......
To go a bit further into the whole thing for the uninitiated-- stepping up in displacement with a Type 1 almost always means more bore, which means machine work to the heads and case. This isn't a big deal, and everything from a 1776 on up has this stuff done to it.
The popular Type 1 bore sizes are 90.5, 92, and 94 mm. Historically, nobody likes 92s because they are usually just bored out 90.5 cylinders, and they are prone to distortion. There are now "thick-walled" 92s, but it's not worth getting into. 90.5s are the safe choice, but there are limitations on valve sizes, etc.-- it won't matter until you get into big displacements, but then it will. Gene Berg hated 94s, but then again he hated any compression ratio above about 8:1 or so. 94s are thick-walled and are the practical limitation for a Type 1, unless you go way off the map.
Stroke is another issue. The pent-roof AL cases from Bugpack, CB, et al will all handle up to an 86 mm stroke without any grinding (on the case-- at 86 mm the cam needs to be relieved). There are guys putting up to 90 mm stroke cranks in AL cases, but the engines aren't all you'd think they would be. A mag case will do about an 84 mm stroke, but it'll take a bunch of work. Some guys will build an 86 mm stroke an a mag case, but the roof is getting pretty thin. Most builders like the mag case better, hence the 2332 is a more popular combination than the 2387.
94s make more heat than 90.5s, but a longer stroke is going to make more heat than a short 69 mm stroke, so..... I'd recommend just going with the bigger bore and deal with the heat issues as they arise, unless you live in Death Valley or Phoenix or somewhere similar . FWIW, "lousy build" 1776s make a ton of heat as well. Get a good header, a big remote oil cooler, and a good shroud, and a 2387 will probably run as cool as a mexi-crate 1776 with a Monza header and an Empi shroud.
I'm planning a big-displacement Type 1. I'm pretty committed to going with nickasil cylinders and a DTM, so I'll be running about 10:1. I'm undecided as to the case and stroke-- an AL case is stronger in the main journals, and allows a bigger stroke-- but a mag case is lighter and dissipates heat better. If I go with LN Nickies, I'll do a 95 mm bore (a Porsche size) with the bottoms machined down to fit in a 94 mm register in the case and heads. A 95x86 is 2438 cc-- that's a big Type 1, any bigger and I should really be in a Type 4 anyhow. I'll not go any smaller than 2332.
Good luck.
The popular Type 1 bore sizes are 90.5, 92, and 94 mm. Historically, nobody likes 92s because they are usually just bored out 90.5 cylinders, and they are prone to distortion. There are now "thick-walled" 92s, but it's not worth getting into. 90.5s are the safe choice, but there are limitations on valve sizes, etc.-- it won't matter until you get into big displacements, but then it will. Gene Berg hated 94s, but then again he hated any compression ratio above about 8:1 or so. 94s are thick-walled and are the practical limitation for a Type 1, unless you go way off the map.
Stroke is another issue. The pent-roof AL cases from Bugpack, CB, et al will all handle up to an 86 mm stroke without any grinding (on the case-- at 86 mm the cam needs to be relieved). There are guys putting up to 90 mm stroke cranks in AL cases, but the engines aren't all you'd think they would be. A mag case will do about an 84 mm stroke, but it'll take a bunch of work. Some guys will build an 86 mm stroke an a mag case, but the roof is getting pretty thin. Most builders like the mag case better, hence the 2332 is a more popular combination than the 2387.
94s make more heat than 90.5s, but a longer stroke is going to make more heat than a short 69 mm stroke, so..... I'd recommend just going with the bigger bore and deal with the heat issues as they arise, unless you live in Death Valley or Phoenix or somewhere similar . FWIW, "lousy build" 1776s make a ton of heat as well. Get a good header, a big remote oil cooler, and a good shroud, and a 2387 will probably run as cool as a mexi-crate 1776 with a Monza header and an Empi shroud.
I'm planning a big-displacement Type 1. I'm pretty committed to going with nickasil cylinders and a DTM, so I'll be running about 10:1. I'm undecided as to the case and stroke-- an AL case is stronger in the main journals, and allows a bigger stroke-- but a mag case is lighter and dissipates heat better. If I go with LN Nickies, I'll do a 95 mm bore (a Porsche size) with the bottoms machined down to fit in a 94 mm register in the case and heads. A 95x86 is 2438 cc-- that's a big Type 1, any bigger and I should really be in a Type 4 anyhow. I'll not go any smaller than 2332.
Good luck.
I've been away from the air cooled scene for three years. Have they finally resolved the quality problems with aluminum cases?
When I disassemble my 2110 I'm seriously considering opening the case and heads up to take a 94mm piston/barrel set. The pistons and barrels have to be replaced anyways. Also, if the case is warped I'll need a new case (hence my question about the quality of aluminum cases).
When I disassemble my 2110 I'm seriously considering opening the case and heads up to take a 94mm piston/barrel set. The pistons and barrels have to be replaced anyways. Also, if the case is warped I'll need a new case (hence my question about the quality of aluminum cases).
My opinion is that you are pushing the T1 past its limits. It will last short trips down the drag strip but not for tooling around town. You are now in T4 (TIV) country where 90/93/96mm bore is stock w/ 71-78 stroke typical. Pistons are available 103-105mm. Case is stock aluminium from the factory.
The subject of large bore and stroke engines making heat and not having a long life has me full of questions for the experienced big motor gurus. What components are the typical early failures in a well built 2110, 2165,2338 engine? I can understand the issue of more heat created if the engine is putting out 100 plus HP most of the time vs. the a 1600 stocker with 40-50 HP being made most of the time. The same cooling system that keeps a 1600 motor cool while making 50 HP will have a hard time cooling an engine making 100 HP. But if the 2110 engine has a counterweighted,balanced crank, much better rods,bearings, better quality valves,heads, rocker assy., casesavers, external oil cooler, careful assembly, etc. and was driven in the 60-80 HP range, it seems to me that the engine would last as long as a stock engine that is driven hard. To provide the same performance the stocker has to run full on where as the stroker is really just running at 60-70 % of full out put. I know that with my 1600 motor with 2 40 Webers I am into the throttle a lot to make the car go. If I had a 2110 motor, I could be doing the same level of performance with out pushing the engine as hard. Just wonder what your thoughts are on the better quality parts not driven to the max vs. the stock VW driven hard. Of course the concept of me NOT driving the 2110 hard is probably a statistical impossibility.
We did a similar thread back in Dec see https://www.speedsterowners.com/forum/readmsg.asp?t=13270
I did build the 2332 with Nickies, with a CB aluminum pent roof case, CE big heads, and a lot of other things. So far, and that is about 15 k miles so far, all is good. The nickies make for an easier to cool engine, I am running 9.5 to 1 compression with ceramic coatings on the heads, valves, exhaust ports, and pistons. Pistons are graphite skirted JE's. More than 9.5 cr may be pushing it on street gas. Even with the ceramics that cr and pump gas is splitting it pretty thin....
I did build the 2332 with Nickies, with a CB aluminum pent roof case, CE big heads, and a lot of other things. So far, and that is about 15 k miles so far, all is good. The nickies make for an easier to cool engine, I am running 9.5 to 1 compression with ceramic coatings on the heads, valves, exhaust ports, and pistons. Pistons are graphite skirted JE's. More than 9.5 cr may be pushing it on street gas. Even with the ceramics that cr and pump gas is splitting it pretty thin....
i have run 11:1 comp on 92 octaine mind you - that was a water-cooled 16v
Jim-
Email me off site. I'd love to talk to you about what you did.
Thanks!
Email me off site. I'd love to talk to you about what you did.
Thanks!
Going back to the orignal post
"Is it too much motor?"
Reminds me of a conversation I had in 1967 with an engineer, just flown in from England. In attemptying to estalish a business relationship with him I discovered he dearly loved his MG sports car. I let it slip that I had a 67 Corvette. He had the "big block" in his modified MG - out to 1800 cc. I also had a big block - 7000 cc. He got this blank look on his face and we changed subjects.
Is a blown 562 cube big block in a '65 Chevy II too much motor? C'mon this is America!
"Is it too much motor?"
Reminds me of a conversation I had in 1967 with an engineer, just flown in from England. In attemptying to estalish a business relationship with him I discovered he dearly loved his MG sports car. I let it slip that I had a 67 Corvette. He had the "big block" in his modified MG - out to 1800 cc. I also had a big block - 7000 cc. He got this blank look on his face and we changed subjects.
Is a blown 562 cube big block in a '65 Chevy II too much motor? C'mon this is America!
Preach, brother!
I used to be in the "a 1776 nicely replicates the spirit of the original" crowd. George Brown used to scoff at my "less is more" thinking. He said something to the effect that "Less is less. More is more". He was 100% right.
Build all the engine you can afford.
I used to be in the "a 1776 nicely replicates the spirit of the original" crowd. George Brown used to scoff at my "less is more" thinking. He said something to the effect that "Less is less. More is more". He was 100% right.
Build all the engine you can afford.
I miss George's comments.
My 2110 was built using the best parts I could afford at the time (Scat forged, counterweighted crank, Scat 'I' rods, Pauter rockers etc). My engine was built for torque. For me, a high rpm screamer didn't make as much sense as a lower horsepowered, torquier engine.
If most of your driving is done in the 2000 to 4000 rpm range, then that's where the power/torque should be.
I did go with a higher CR....something like 9.2. The higher compression ratio really 'woke' the motor up.
Ron
My 2110 was built using the best parts I could afford at the time (Scat forged, counterweighted crank, Scat 'I' rods, Pauter rockers etc). My engine was built for torque. For me, a high rpm screamer didn't make as much sense as a lower horsepowered, torquier engine.
If most of your driving is done in the 2000 to 4000 rpm range, then that's where the power/torque should be.
I did go with a higher CR....something like 9.2. The higher compression ratio really 'woke' the motor up.
Ron
Stan and Ron are right in some respect, but not all individuals are the same. I got three Porsches, one is a 1965 912 with a 1720-cc engine, one is a 1965 356 SC with a bone stock 105 horse 1600-cc and the third is my Speedster replica that I built back in the mid 90's. See my recent post regarding engine combo. I drive my Porsches and I can feel the recent why these engines combos were configured and selected by the Porsche engineers. The feel is something that needs to be experienced to be appreciated. I did enjoy my 2110-cc but I could not use all of the power do to the ligh weight of the car. I feel the same about sandrails when I see an extremely light car with a huge power Cadillac Northstar V8 in it....these guys never really use the engine's capablity but it sure does look nice and does give you the "braggin' rights". I've built a few torquey Type 4 and Type 1 engines locally and the owners have not trouble giving the bigboys a run for their money....plus they did not have to spend the big bucks either. But then again, I can understand and appreciate the "more-bigger-power" stance since I did drag bugs once upon a time back in the 80's!
Now, also a 1.6 L - 2.0 L blow thru turbo engine would be something else too....the smaller the bore, the more reliable!