247hp from a 2332cc Is Not Possible?

Two ways to make that kind of power. First, big heads, a lot of compression and rpm. The second, use a Southern California dyno.

@LI-Rick posted:

Two ways to make that kind of power. First, big heads, a lot of compression and rpm. The second, use a Southern California dyno.

That kind of hp is possible out of a 2332, but at what- 8,000? 8500? closer to 9,000 rpm?  It's now what a lot of people call "barely" streetable- it'll make it to the burger joint on Friday night and (after a late night race or 2) you'll be respected by all patrons in the know, but it wouldn't be fun to try to take it on a 300 mile drive for the weekend.

And I love Rick's dig at the southern California VW crowd- their 'optimistic' hp figures were legendary!

197hp? totally plausible. 247? Maybe, for one of Jake's near 3 liter twin-plugged type4s.

Otherwise, I'm pulling on my hip waders, it's getting deep...

My little 2165 type 1 made 172hp(@6500rpm, falling off going up to 7k) on Jake's dyno back in 2002.

I'm certain it makes more now that I did a top-end rebuild. The big 48mm throttle bodies, and ECU controlled injection and ignition help, along with the 10.2:1 static compression. But how much more I couldn't say, and it's not going back on a dyno anytime soon. It feels torquier, which makes sense with the big throats instead of the restrictive 36mm venturis of the carbs.

My guess for that 2332 is somewhere between 160 and 200 hp.

For 250hp, add a turbo.

There is an east coast guy who used to frequent this site that also made a 240hp claim. He's been dusted repeatedly by me, in a supposedly 1200 pound car. The math doesn't work though, does it?

CFF  Horsepower is real and still alive and well out here !   (California Fudge Factor).   Bruce

Yeah, without knowing what's in it and how well it's been tuned, who knows?  I still maintain it is possible, though- a 1600-1800 lb (with driver) bug with 240-250 hp would run mid to low 11's (according to an et calculator) and a number of guys have done exactly that over the years in their street beetles.  It takes dedication to run a car like that so it doesn't happen very often, but it's been done.

All I'm saying is that it is possible- wind a 23-2400 cc VW engine high enough and it'll hit the mark, but it's no longer anywhere near a daily driver.  And saying it takes a 3 liter twin plugged JR beast to do it isn't a comparison at all- that engine is only going to 6000 or 6500 rpm.  Take it up 2,000 rpm and think of where it would be...

You're right, Al. But how long is that high rpm screamer going to scream?

Not long.

The thing is, most guys just want to drive on the street. 247 hp out of a NA type1 is a NON-starter for a street car. Yeah, I'm sure that there are drag cars that do that. Who cares? That is not REAL. As in usable, in the real world.

Maybe, just maybe, that european dude Stan talks about could build one, with 6 studs per cylinder and special EVERYTHING. But not some dude rebuilding it himself for a Spyder. There is absolutely some fibbing going on IN THIS CASE. Just admit it, Al.

And while you're at it: GO WORK ON YOUR Speedster. Sometime in the near future, rather than the 12th of NEVER.

This was the engine that Pat Downs brought to the Hot VW’s engine shootout a number of years ago. If anyone could make 247 hp in a streetable 2332, it would probably be him.

I’m pushing over 200hp (albeit estimated) out my my 2180.

Of course, I cheated a bit with the turbo.

I Agree in my experience the 247 HP number on a 2332cc NA type 1 is a more than a bit inflated or Hopeful. 185-190hp would be a good average.

@LI-Rick posted:

Two ways to make that kind of power. First, big heads, a lot of compression and rpm. The second, use a Southern California dyno.

You're almost never wrong, Rick - but there's a 3rd way:

Turbo.

The "2332 shootout" was from what, 15 years ago? I'd bet a donut Pat could better that now. Nobody else came close to his numbers.

FWIW, those engines were dynoed on JayCee's dyno, which had the OCCF (Orange County Correction Factor) already built in.

@Stan Galat posted:

You're almost never wrong, Rick - but there's a 3rd way:

Turbo.

Nitrous!

@dlearl476 posted:

Nitrous!

You first.

JATO!!

@Stan Galat posted:

You're almost never wrong, Rick - but there's a 3rd way:

Turbo.

The "2332 shootout" was from what, 15 years ago? I'd bet a donut Pat could better that now. Nobody else came close to his numbers.

FWIW, those engines were dynoed on JayCee's dyno, which had the OCCF (Orange County Correction Factor) already built in.

Been there, done that!

yikes!!!

Gee, he's missing his engine tins!

Not only missing the engine tins he is missing the cooling fan.. Drag car meant to be run in under 12s stints, I believe.

I owned a vintage Formula Atlantic open wheel road racer that was powered by a highly tricked out 2.8L Corvair flat 6 cylinder air cooled engine. The engine had no cooling fan or engine cooling tins. It was a 12.5:1 CR. leaded 114 octane race engine that was putting out north of 275HP in a 900lbs car. It was designed to autocross and to run for under 60 seconds at a time. This car was a rocket and would win FTD (Fast time of day) any time we took it out. Oh, what fun I had with this car. I remember on afternoon I went to start the engine in line to take my run and the engine backfired and caught the foam air filter on fire inches behind my helmet and I didn't know it. Once I turned the key and the engine started the fire was sucked out as I watched 3 safety techs running at me to douse me with chemical fire extinguishers. I got them to cease and desist before covering me and my engine in white powder. So many great car and racing memories. Oh, to be young again.

@Lane Anderson posted:

Gee, he's missing his engine tins!

And still never overheated! Who needs engine tin?

@DannyP posted:

You're right, Al. But how long is that high rpm screamer going to scream?

Not long.

The thing is, most guys just want to drive on the street. 247 hp out of a NA type1 is a NON-starter for a street car. Yeah, I'm sure that there are drag cars that do that. Who cares? That is not REAL. As in usable, in the real world.

Maybe, just maybe, that european dude Stan talks about could build one, with 6 studs per cylinder and special EVERYTHING. But not some dude rebuilding it himself for a Spyder. There is absolutely some fibbing going on IN THIS CASE. Just admit it, Al.

And while you're at it: GO WORK ON YOUR Speedster. Sometime in the near future, rather than the 12th of NEVER.

We're saying the same thing, Danny- it's possible, but for most people too much work and just not practical.  As I said, running a pseudo race car with a licence plate bolted on and an engine like that takes serious dedication and is not suited for long highway jaunts, while (I believe) yours and my definitions of a 'street' car are somewhat similar- something you can jump in and do a weekend trip in at the drop of a hat.

I know of 2 bugs here that qualify in the 'barely' streetable category- the first is a turboed oval window that runs low 10's and the other is a bug club member and friend who built a 2442 with an 86C, Darren Krewenchuck (local head porter/engine builder) massaged CB heads in a full weight Cal Look '67 with a Berg 5 speed that runs mid 11's and I don't believe either car does more than a few hundred miles a year.  Just last night Cameron rode his bike to the Bug club meeting- I didn't get a chance to ask him if it was back up and running.

I'm pretty sure there are a couple more, but I don't know enough about them to comment.

And now to finish packing for 5 days in the FJ- pics with buggies all around to follow!

@ALB posted:

We're saying the same thing, Danny- it's possible, but for most people too much work and just not practical.  As I said, running a pseudo race car with a licence plate bolted on and an engine like that takes serious dedication and is not suited for long highway jaunts, while (I believe) yours and my definitions of a 'street' car are somewhat similar- something you can jump in and do a weekend trip in at the drop of a hat.

I know of 2 bugs here that qualify in the 'barely' streetable category- the first is a turboed oval window that runs low 10's and the other is a bug club member and friend who built a 2442 with an 86C, Darren Krewenchuck (local head porter/engine builder) massaged CB heads in a full weight Cal Look '67 with a Berg 5 speed that runs mid 11's and I don't believe either car does more than a few hundred miles a year.  Just last night Cameron rode his bike to the Bug club meeting- I didn't get a chance to ask him if it was back up and running.

I'm pretty sure there are a couple more, but I don't know enough about them to comment.

And now to finish packing for 5 days in the FJ- pics with buggies all around to follow!

Darren Krewenchuck built my 2332 and it runs very well.

Back in the day my father and Chuck offered 2 engines, both built by Pat.  A 1915cc that came in between 120-125hp and a 2165cc that came in between 160-180hp depending on heads.  The only reason I mention this is that over the years we've learned that the vast majority of owners have NO IDEA what size their motor is and because the car is "so fast" they think "it must have the big motor" which is actually quite opposite.  So many more 1915cc cars were built.

Of course engine get rebuilt, changes or even custom ordered, so anything is possible, but as stated above it is highly unlikely that this motor is anywhere close to that hp figure.

And as stated above, YES it is possible to get this much power out of a 2332cc, it's just not practical and highly unlikely.  I know Chuck has a little mill like that tucked away in his shop, built by Pat in the 90s for some of the "Run n Gun" events, but a weekend toy that needs torn down on occasion and not a street motor by any means...  Likewise, look at Pat's NA drag Bug.  I don't know the current details, other than he is the current record holder, but last I heard his little (2.9L?) type 1 was making just south of 400hp.  It's lifespan is measured in seconds...

Here are the specs on Pat's engine, according to his website.  I wonder how many passes he makes before changing valve springs?  Using a Pauter block and Marine crank, his bottom end could hold more than 1000hp.

Pat Downs record setting Pro Stock Engine. This engine holds the ECPRA Pro Stock E.T record at 5.90 seconds.

2332cc
387 horsepower at 8400 rpm
292 ft lbs torque at 7200 rpm

Features:

• Crankshaft- Marine 84mm
• Pistons and Cylinders- CP custom billet pistons with Pauter Machine modular cylinders
• Engine Block- Pauter Machine
• Connecting rods- Pauter Machine
• Cylinder heads- Autocraft, machined and ported by PDP
• Rocker arms- T&D machine
• Flywheel- aluminum
• Clutch- J&E
• Induction- 61mm throttle bodies, Fuel Tech EFI
• Exhaust- Custom by PDP
• Ignition- crank trigger

1/8 mile?

@ken whellams posted:

1/8 mile?

Yes

@ken whellams posted:

1/8 mile?

He's run 9.33 sec at 145 mph in the 1/4 mile.

what? no cam specs?

@edsnova posted:

what? no cam specs?

Yes.

Big.

@edsnova posted:

what? no cam specs?

Why would you tell your competition what cam you used? Especially if you won.

@DannyP posted:

Why would you tell your competition what cam you used? Especially if you won.

There is a video of Pat getting interviewed at the track, he wouldn’t even disclose the stroke and bore off the motor he was running. Those are proprietary secrets!