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356 Engine Comparo

FM Former Member
Aloha,

In comparision to the original 356 Porsche engines, how do the VW Type I and IV engines perform? I've just been browsing the Parts Obsolete website and absolutely love those cars, but I just have to wonder how much cash those guys are sinking into the motors in those cars and just how much performance they're getting in return. Actually, I know that those cars are fast...I've seen them race at Portland Int'l Raceway. But, I've also heard that to get the kind of ooomph out of a 356 engine that you can get out of a VW Typ I or IV, you have to have DEEP pockets. If you have a fairly modified Speedster replica, would you be confident in its ability to take-on a 356 done up Outlaw style?

I suppose this is part of the attraction to the Speedster replica for me. You can have a beautiful car with a more economical engine that probably puts out more power than the original 356 engines. However, the big downside (in my opinion) is that most Speedster replicas would be banned from club racing due to the extremely modified nature of the cars (and the fact that 95% of them out there are VW's in disguise).

I guess I'm thinking out loud here, but for me, I'm considering an IM at some time in the future (my Wife demands roll-up windows and there are other reasons), and the price of an IM is pretty much the same as a very nice original 356 Coupe. I'm wondering if a real 356 Outlaw can match a wild Speedster replica at the stoplight, in the twisties or on the track.

Well...the one major advantage of a replica: it will never rust.

Feel free to ignore my rambling. Its late and I can't fall asleep. :)

aloha,
Joel
(Message Edited 9/2/2003 10:34:22 AM)
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FM Former Member
Aloha,

In comparision to the original 356 Porsche engines, how do the VW Type I and IV engines perform? I've just been browsing the Parts Obsolete website and absolutely love those cars, but I just have to wonder how much cash those guys are sinking into the motors in those cars and just how much performance they're getting in return. Actually, I know that those cars are fast...I've seen them race at Portland Int'l Raceway. But, I've also heard that to get the kind of ooomph out of a 356 engine that you can get out of a VW Typ I or IV, you have to have DEEP pockets. If you have a fairly modified Speedster replica, would you be confident in its ability to take-on a 356 done up Outlaw style?

I suppose this is part of the attraction to the Speedster replica for me. You can have a beautiful car with a more economical engine that probably puts out more power than the original 356 engines. However, the big downside (in my opinion) is that most Speedster replicas would be banned from club racing due to the extremely modified nature of the cars (and the fact that 95% of them out there are VW's in disguise).

I guess I'm thinking out loud here, but for me, I'm considering an IM at some time in the future (my Wife demands roll-up windows and there are other reasons), and the price of an IM is pretty much the same as a very nice original 356 Coupe. I'm wondering if a real 356 Outlaw can match a wild Speedster replica at the stoplight, in the twisties or on the track.

Well...the one major advantage of a replica: it will never rust.

Feel free to ignore my rambling. Its late and I can't fall asleep. :)

aloha,
Joel
(Message Edited 9/2/2003 10:34:22 AM)
FM Former Member
Earlier I telephoned Parts Obsolete for a ballpark price range re an Outlaw. It was scarey expensive, north of where King George's checkbook is entering, but of course it depends on how wild, wild is. Did I say there is a two year wait list?

What Gary suggested was find a Coupe in good shape and do it myself, pay as you go. In the back of my mind that seed is on hold but maybe some day.

I would like a Coupe with a sunroof better than a Speedster A, but that is just me. As long as you don't go with Porsche parts and focus on Vw when you can, it may be within reach, some day.
FM Former Member
The Parts Obsolete outlaw cars are very neat. BUT (big BUT) vintage Porsche parts are expensive, 356 engines that make big BHP are fragile, you will need to upgrade to disk brakes, and the swing axles leave something to be desired for handling.

IMO the direction to go for an outlaw is the 911-4 with a 901 5-speed in the 356A of your choice (see the August 2003 "Exellence" for an article on John Collins' car). That way you have reliable power hooked up to a stronger IRS transaxle.

Sure it's expensive. With my IM or one of Gary's cars we are talking totally custom built from scratch automobile or a full-scale classic car restoration with upgrades.

You do this sort of thing kinda/sorta as a labor of love, and like any other type of love affair, you don't pay much attention to how much it costs (until later).
Bob: IM S6Bob: IM S62016 Intermeccanica S6 Supporting Member
Erik:

I was driving around town yesterday, going by an old residential area, and there in a driveway behind two cars was a 356 coupe all in primer. I didn't stop in, but may go back soon, as I thought that a coupe would be a very interesting project, if you could use non-Porsche parts, where possible, to restore it to half decent shape.

Coupes are also much more reasonable than the open 356s, and once in a while some really interesting ones come up on Ebay, and at an 'affordable' price.

Like you, I am just thinking of this project, but it would be fun.
FM Former Member
Yep.

I personally wish a replica manufacturer built 356 Coupe's for sale, one did back in the 80's, a Brazilian based company, VW powered. While exotic engines would be nice, still, there is nothing wrong with a stout VW engine.

As long as a replica Coupe has a sunroof, bring it on! Tube frame, VW chassis, it doesn't matter to me as long as the finished car looks like the Abarth Porsche that kicked booty at Le Mans long ago. By its ultra louvered appearance that car was the first Outlaw, so homely it was cute.

For potential owners that live outside of SoCal, a replica Coupe would easily be a year round driver. Nice.
MASSIVETYPEIVMASSIVETYPEIV
I also build quite a few 356 engines...A stocker done right will go for 8,000.00 and maybe make 80BHP...They are hard to find parts for, valves are 110+.00 each...Where a severe duty valve for a TIV engine is maybe 25.00 each...

The 356 is a wild little engine...Full Hemi chambers and really wild valvetrain. They can make big HP with a big investment. I once built a 205BHP version for a 356 Production class SCCA car. The bill was approaching 20K!! Most of that was parts!

For 8K (The price of a stock 356 engine) you could have a 180 BHP TIV that will outlive the 356 twice over...and have much better street power...

Thats why I have sold so many conversion engines to guys with 356 coupes....The engine bolts in, and they can keep their original Hemi engine under the workbench for later..or as a museum piece.
(Message Edited 9/2/2003 1:05:02 PM)
FM Former Member
Aloha everyone,

I really like the Coupes a lot. Those would definitely be a more practical car for the PacNW, where I'll be in a few years. I had heard about that Brazilian (or was it Argentinian?) that made tube-frame Coupes. Supposedly, there are still a few running about, definitely a cool concept.

George, yes I saw that article in Excellence. Definitely a very cool engine, but completely out of my ballpark. Plus, I just don't like the idea of how rare some of the parts would be for those "what if..." scenarios. Know what I mean?

Jake, I didn't know that a Type IV could bolt up in a 356. I asked the same question over at PelicanParts, and I also asked Harry Pellow shortly before his passing, and the general reply was "keep the faith." As in, yeah it might fit, but it'll be ugly and we Porsche folk won't like you. Anyway, I'd be interested to learn more about a Type IV into a 356 Coupe if you're willing to expand upon it.

aloha,
Joel
chines1chines1
Erik and Joel;

In the early-mid 80's, my father imported the ENVEMO (stands for ENgineering of VEhiles and MOtors) Super 90 from Brazil, a 356C replica (This is how he met Chuck, and ultimately they moved the Spyder production to Brazil)
ENVEMO made 320 cars, coupes and cabs, from 80-92. Our factory (in Brazil) bought the tooling and molds when ENVEMO quit production.
We have always thought about bringing them back... I personally prefer the coupe, but with the prices of coupes lately, you could have a nice original and some extra $$$ in the pocket over building a replica.
The cabs are beautiful, but alot of "finish" pieces and trim, costly, but fully lined and padded, hartz cloth top, etc... It gets expensive!
Just thought I'd throw my 2c in!
(Message Edited 9/2/2003 7:49:55 PM)
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