356 Speedster roll bar

The one's that came with FF/CMC were termed "Show Bars" or "mouse traps" or "head cracker" by others.  A proper SCCA qualifying could be installed if the VW pan was adequately reinforced but it would be a lot of work and would infringe on occupants. 

DRCLOCK used the stainless steel Miata "Roll bar" in at least one of his but again more for show.

Roll bars?

Yes, we do discuss those once in a while.

Whether or not it is safer, has been debated here, and just recently.

Maybe someone can find the link to that recent discussion.  It was interesting.

Here's Cory's highly modified CMC chassis with integrated roll bars.

https://www.speedsterowners.co...-not-buff-out?page=2

Discussion of roll bars.  Plus if you do a search, there is quite a history on roll bars.

I wasn't looking for a debate on if/or, just wondering how many?

So out of ~40 cars at Carlisle maybe fewer than 4 had roll bars of some sort?

Here's components making up the CMC kit - you often see a used "show bar" kits for $100 or so (but shipping would be a killer). NO way is it a safety feature in a rollover!

Great pics, Wolfgang.

Roy: so you can see now what you get, usually. I think this "stock" bar could be made functional (though not SCCA compliant) with a bit of creative design, some DOM round or square tube, and a little wire & direct current. I'd build a leg off the torsion bar housing and maybe a brace from the upper shock mount (both not pictured). You'd likely need to take the body off the chassis to do it, but maybe not. It could probably still be bolt-in.

With four solid points of connection, those FF/CMC "mousetraps" could give you some protection, maybe.

I have one, maybe two, in the scrap pile. 

I think Wolfie is low-balling the roll bar count at Carlisle.  I woould think, after going through ten years of photos, that the count is more like 10% or 5 - 6 per year. (still, not many)

I have one.  Here I am at Carlisle 2004, the original Hawaiian Shirt Guy, looking for more roll bars (Pearl is right in front of me):

Or this shot of the bunch of us in 2010 (I see six, but I was absent that year):

Realistically, they are not all that popular and as Greg/Wolfie mentioned, the CMC version was "decorative" and would probably kill you in a roll-over.  If you were to go to the effort of making it actually useful, then you have to admit that the rest of the car is a shard-producing egg shell on impact and that could also kill you.

Not much safe about these toys.

Tell me about it. 

It'll be OK Lane, it fades with time.

I don't know about shards, it's not like exploding shrapnel. More like crushed mush. Impact breaks the resin, freeing the fiberglass cloth from it's usual firmness. Yes, the edges can be sharp where it's broken. Everything tends to stay where it's supposed to, and just becomes a broken, floppy mess.

Roy Simpson, FF Plastic Porsche posted:

I wasn't looking for a debate on if/or, just wondering how many?

Well, usually, when a question is asked on this site, it can get interesting.  Lots of varied opinions on any discussion and thread drift usually happens.  Not that that is bad.  It's just the nature of the beast.

Lane, it could be worse.  You could be riding a carbon fiber bicycle that exhibits GREAT strength in one direction (linearly (compressively) along the length of any specific tube) and almost zero strength perpendicular to that (in the grand scheme of things).

I try to remind myself of that when blasting downhill at anything over 30mph.

Especially with a carbon fiber seat post..... 

These cars don't roll easily...

How safe would you REALLY be in these in a true rollover, not just laying upside down?

Head above windshield, head above seat headrests .....

Kate Moss

There was a photo of 2017 Miata that had flipped and rolled a couple of times after hitting early morning black ice.  I was surprized that integrity of passenger compartment was still there and driver walked away from totaled car.  The windshield frame and the stock roll hoops were still intact. There wasn't a straight panel on the car though.

You know, WNGD brings up a good point.  Unless you’ve installed a full or partial cage in the car, there isn’t much to protect you.  Spyders are a bit better (they have a cage/frame) but both have a useless windshield frame.

Yes, agree on the windshield. Funny, SCCA still uses the broomstick method on topless cars. Touch a broomstick on the rollbar and windshield. If the broomstick clears the helmet, you're good to go. 

Not all Spyders have hoops front and rear of the passenger cell, just Vintage as far as I know.

Gordon Nichols posted:

You know, WNGD brings up a good point.  Unless you’ve installed a full or partial cage in the car, there isn’t much to protect you.  Spyders are a bit better (they have a cage/frame) but both have a useless windshield frame.

If safety is your prime concern, why on earth would you ever drive a Speedster convertible replica?

Speaking of windshield frames:

" Automatic Rollover Protection: Underneath the back headrests are two hidden steel beams that immediately deploy as soon as a rollover is detected, to help minimize the risk of injury in the event of a rollover. Comes standard. " (New Beetle Convertible Highlights)

"On the safety front, a cool rollover support deploys automatically should the New Beetle convertible turn turtle. The Automatic Rollover Supports, as VW calls them, deploy from their position behind the rear seats whether the top is up or down, and work with the front seat headrests to improve passenger protection. Front and side airbags are also standard." (2003 Volkswagen New Beetle convertible | Fuel Infection)

Whatever that Solstice hit, it hit hard. 

To WNGD's question, above: Comparatively very, very safe, except for Kate Moss in the MGB.

Guys, we've been over this. The engineering that goes into newer cars is so far ahead of what a Speedster or Spyder replica has, it's like alien technology. Much of this is by regulation. It is why on-road deaths have dropped precipitously over the past couple decades even though passenger miles have increased and everyone is texting at the wheel. 

I ask because, I am putting my plastic Porsche back together and was deciding. Put the towel bar\roll bar back in or not.

When I removed the roll bar, during dis assembly, 4 of the bolts were just bolt heads glued in place so they looked like they were functional. Go figure.

I have decided not to re install. If I ever sell this toy, I'll keep the towel bar and they can put holes in the carpet, if they want.

It did cross my mind, (I use that term loosely) do many people really think they are functional or just like the looks. Not getting into the engineering, just first thoughts of a uninformed buyer.

Thanks for the photos, that pushed me over the hump.

I don't like them at all. It takes away from the simplicity of the car. If I was going to race it on a track then I'd want one (and have to have one), but Im not, so I don't.

Exactly Robert. Even though I've got a Spyder which isn't quite the same as a Speedster, I have a 4 point removable bar for track days. Street driving is unimpeded, but I've got enough protection for autocross and track days when I need it. It does take away from the simplicity and beauty of the car when installed. No way could I have a permanent bar.

I have lost friends who rolled in a 70's era MG. One died, one should of died, and the other was *ok* (yes three across in a MG :-(  . They could have used a roll bar.

I would rather have the 'show bar' pictured in Wolfgangs post above, than nothing.

Bolted to the pan, and unless the 'show bar' completely pushed through the pan in a roll over, it would be better than getting heads crushed.

In a devastating crash, it might make some sort of difference. If the attachment method just lets it disconnect in a mishap, well shame on the install.

With that said, most of us can, and have, gone through life without a roll over. So, you buys your Speedster and you takes your chances. Drive aware. Sometimes, its just your time.

I have survived a roll over and got lucky...

I had a roll bar installed on an Intermeccanica I had built last year. I am very aware that it may not help me if I get in a bad wreck.

I installed it because I was trying to replicate the look of a few speedster pictures that I have seen on the track.

I wanted my car to look like I could take it to the track, or it just left the track.

I have a good shot of it from behind, but still struggle with the picture posting.If I can figure it out,I will put one up.

Just my 2cents.

WOLFGANG posted:

So out of ~40 cars at Carlisle maybe fewer than 4 had roll bars of some sort?

Here's components making up the CMC kit - you often see a used "show bar" kits for $100 or so (but shipping would be a killer). NO way is it a safety feature in a rollover!

Hey I got one of them in the pile. If someone wants it, let me know.
-=theron

I had a 1/2 cage built for my coupe last year.  1/2 just means it doesn't extend forward past the door frames.  There are no forward support brackets adjacent to the front seats as you see in many track cars.  I not only wanted the roll over protection, I wanted a harness bar as an attachment point for my 4-point belts.  A harness bar is the horizontal bar that runs from left to right under the actual roll bar itself.  It's a support element, as well as an attachment point for harnesses. 

It's not for everyone, but it works for me.  Sorry, no pics, as I'm not near the car.

Tom Boney posted:

I had a roll bar installed on an Intermeccanica I had built last year. I am very aware that it may not help me if I get in a bad wreck.

I installed it because I was trying to replicate the look of a few speedster pictures that I have seen on the track.

I wanted my car to look like I could take it to the track, or it just left the track.

I have a good shot of it from behind, but still struggle with the picture posting.If I can figure it out,I will put one up.

Just my 2cents.

Not sure if this will work, but this is Tom's gorgeous IM Speedster.  I just love the look of this car.

https://www.facebook.com/photo...amp;type=3&ifg=1

Tom:  I assume your roll bar is the same as mine, in which case it is securely welded to the strong IM frame, and should give protection.