I use that snipping tool a LOT. Like, a lot a lot.
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It's all finished, and saved.
The page is too big to snip(it is bigger than my screen), and if I try to make it smaller then snip, it loses so much resolution you can't read it. I can email it as a word doc(not really, Open Office) to whomever would like it.
Hopefully, I can send it to one of you more computer savvy Speedster derelicts. Maybe one of you can change it to a file type that a) the SOC accepts and b) you can actually read. And hopefully, without locking it in the vault of paid members only.
Irony: I do not have access to my carb synch guide on here, that I wrote.
@DannyP posted:.Hopefully, I can send it to one of you more computer savvy Speedster derelicts. Maybe one of you can change it to a file type that a) the SOC accepts and b) you can actually read. And hopefully, without locking it in the vault of paid members only.
Irony: I do not have access to my carb synch guide on here, that I wrote.
Shoot me a copy, Danny. No promises, but I'll give it a try.
I KNEW you would!
I guess I could take a hi-res photo of a hard copy, but that seems so non-technical. But then again, we do CAD(cardboard-aided-design) here, so.
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Mac driver here, Danny, so living in a parallel universe.
If you do a few overlapping 'snips' of the doc and send them, I can probably paste together in Photoshop.
Or, apparently, you can save as a 'Word' doc from Open Office and I should be able to open that.
There are no Mac states or Windows states, but only the united states of America.
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Mike is working on it, but I'll send you a copy. PM me your email address.
@Sacto Mitch posted:.
Mac driver here, Danny, so living in a parallel universe.
If you do a few overlapping 'snips' of the doc and send them, I can probably paste together in Photoshop.
Or, apparently, you can save as a 'Word' doc from Open Office and I should be able to open that.
There are no Mac states or Windows states, but only the united states of America.
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Just so you know, Mitch, you're not the only Photoshop expert around here. Some of us have even taken courses.
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@DannyP posted:Here y'all go. Thank you, Mike Pickett for the assist.
Super-cool. Not one word about swaybars.
I know that the earliest 356s used VW units and later they switched. Depends on what you want to do. I don't think switching from the VW unit is worth it unless you go to a rack and pinion unit.
@Stan Galat posted:Super-cool. Not one word about swaybars.
I think that chart is specifically for Formula Vee. I have absolutely no idea where or when I found it. On a Vee, you used to pick your sway bar based on car manufacturer(but I believe EVERYONE uses a 3/4" bar today).
I'm sorry the chart doesn't include bars, I hadn't thought about that. I thought I was posting something complete...
On a Vee, you use one spring pack to suspend the car and the anti-sway bar goes in the other tube. There is no adjustment.
But from my Scirocco days, you'd put a big honkin' bar on the rear to make it oversteer or reduce the terminal understeer that most FWD cars have.
What you're planning with the 5/8" front and 3/4" rear on your IM makes sense to me. I think you're on the right track with that, would love to see how that works. I have confidence it's the way forward.
Another thing you can do to dial in your handling is run a defined course or loop, then take tire temps and write them down. Take temps about an inch in from the left and right and the center too. Change your air pressures, and run it again. You want nearly the same temps front and rear and certainly the same across the tread. I'm planning to use an instant read thermometer, because I'm cheap. I'm not using an expensive tire pyrometer. Get a sharply pointed one, you need to get in the tread a little. Mine goes up to 300C(572F) and is $12.99 on Amazon, digital meat/candy thermometer, reads in 3-5 seconds.
I'll probably not go that far, Danny - but I do think the 5/8"- 3/4" F/R setup warrants investigation, especially since I pulled (or had pulled) some small leaves out of the top tube last winter. I've got to give @Teammccalla and his mechanic credit, though - it was through my PM conversation with him that I decided to give it a go.
Your entire chart makes sense to me, except for the tire pressure thing. The chart seems to indicate that the tire's tendency to slide increases with a decrease in pressure. This seems counterintuitive to me - I would have bet cash money that the tires slid around more as pressure increased.
The part about toe in/out is fascinating.
Agreed, it does seem counterintuitive. I adjusted the pressures opposite to the chart(before I knew better) and the understeer got worse.
@DannyP posted:Agreed, it does seem counterintuitive. I adjusted the pressures opposite to the chart(before I knew better) and the understeer got worse.
I'll give it a try. Thanks!
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OK, here's my tire temp story.
In 1971, when I was starting out as a news photog, I was doing some freelance work for one of the wire services out of their Philadelphia bureau. I rang up the Albany photo guy whose coverage area included Watkins Glen and was able to wangle a photo pass for the July weekend races that included a six-hour endurance race for the European Sports Car Championship series on Saturday and a Can-Am race on Sunday. (This was just after Bruce McLaren's death, but his cars and Denny Hulme pretty much still owned the series.)
Anyway, I was in the paddock area for the practice sessions, looking around for photo ops and who do I spot but Roger Penske and Mark Donohue hunched over the front wheel of Donohue's car. This was the privateer Sunoco-sponsored Ferrari 512 that Penske had completely re-engineered and was campaigning as one of the only cars that had a chance of challenging the Porsche 917's that were just tearing it up at the time. (Against the Stuttgart competition, Donohue placed on the pole and led for 54 laps until something broke in the steering. At the short and twisty Glen, though, the 908's were almost as competitive as the 917's.)
So, there were the boys hunched over that wheel doing I knew not what. As I got closer, I discovered they had a thermometer, and were doing exactly what Danny just described. They were checking across the tire, about every inch or so, just after Donohue had brought the car in from a few hot laps. Who knew that was a thing?
But Penske, you'll recall, didn't miss too many tricks.
And yeah, those were some pretty cool times for pro racing at the Glen.
Cool story, Mitch!
Do you really think the Glen is short? The NASCAR version of the track is, without "the boot". But the full road course is 3.4 miles, I think it's one of the longer race tracks. It's one of my favorite tracks to drive.
Road America, Sebring, and Daytona are longer, sure. COTA is the same length as the Glen.
Most road courses in this country are less than 3 miles.
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Danny, 'short' in the sense that the 917's didn't have enough room to take advantage of their full speed potential. I don't think they ever completely wound out on the straight before they had to brake, and they supposedly weren't as nimble in the tighter stuff as, say, the 908's.
Or so those who were supposed to know were saying at the time.
I never got enough seat time in the 917 to decide for myself.
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@Sacto Mitch posted:I never got enough seat time in the 917 to decide for myself.
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Pity, that. The travails of a cub reporter.
@Sacto Mitch posted:.
Danny, 'short' in the sense that the 917's didn't have enough room to take advantage of their full speed potential. I don't think they ever completely wound out on the straight before they had to brake, and they supposedly weren't as nimble in the tighter stuff as, say, the 908's.
Or so those who were supposed to know were saying at the time.
I never got enough seat time in the 917 to decide for myself.
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Me neither! (You funny!) But I would not say no to driving one. Ever!
Wasn't the 917 designed specifically for LeMans? I know the 908 was really good at shorter, twisty tracks unless it was fitted with the long tail for high speed and long tracks.
Chart revised, for @Stan Galat
Thanks(again) go to @Michael Pickett for the jpg assist.
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Thanks, @DannyP.
The value of this for future searches cannot be overstated.
Search-term aids:
- Sway Bar, sway-bar, swaybar
- Handling
- Oversteer, loose
- Understeer, push
- Tire pressure
I'm sure there's more, but that's what comes to me right now.
Forgot the obvious one: engine oil 🤣
I wish I’d discovered this post a couple weeks ago. I have a new VMC speedster that seems to turn in quickly when I get past a certain point as I turn the steering wheel. It does not feel balanced. I thought the steering geometry was bad Ackermann, which has been touched on in this thread. It seems like the Ackermann is going to be off using a steering mechanism designed for a car that has a 12’’ longer wheelbase than our cars. Can you all confirm this is the issue and that the R&P systems are the solution. I’m encouraged that Greg is working with a Polo box and we’ll know if that solves some of the handling issues. Thanks!
@Stan Galat what shocks did you go with?
@Teammccalla - Which Koni shocks did you use?
@DaveNorCal - I ran Koni shocks on all 4 corners, with heavier 26 mm sway-away rear torsion bars in the rear, and 3/4" EMPI sway-bars front and back since the car was new in 2005 through 2022. I had Carey and Fincher make some changes to the car after a rear suspension piece specific to IMs failed on a run at the TdS in Sept. of last year.
I'm presently running Pro Shock ASB non-adjustable coil-over shocks valved to a number 4 setting on compression and number 6 on rebound with 350 lb springs on the rear. On the front, I pulled all of the thin torsion leaves out of the top tube (just the wide bars left) and left all of the bottom tube leaves alone, with the 2005 vintage Koni shocks. I've got a 3/4" EMPI rear sway-bar, but I ordered a 15 mm VW sway bar from a '72 Thing (it's thicker than a Beetle bar) for the front I'm going to try.
If I were setting up a pan-car, I'd run my original rear configuration and my present front configuration. I'd rather run less spring and a more "normal" (24 psi) air-pressure in my front tires than a "normal" stack of torsion leaves and 18 or 20 psi.
Nothing is going to feel as good as a modern car (or a new Beck with a modern suspension) - but there are things that can be done to try to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
I so wish I understood all of this. When one says "Konis", what exactly does that mean? And can you just throw out the torsion bar leaves and use coil-overs to do the deed? I am wondering if a different shock set up might improve things on my car, and before you ask, I have no good idea what shocks I have working at the moment. I could only say "2006 JPS OEM". They are white. So, I'm starting basically from zero. I have IRS and HD sway bars front and rear. Not quite sure what HD means, they are undoubtedly EMPI. Was asked if I wanted small or large, I chose "large". Obviously, I could go measure them. I could add that my car is pretty stiff, and corners very flat. Not really complaining, other than to say I do get a lot of front end hop on uneven surfaces, espy when braking hard. And I'm OK with a stiff ride. The frame is what I'd call a hybrid: has parts from a VW pan (including the VW VIN) , but uses a JPS tube frame also. As I understand it, it has the horns in back, the hat, etc. in front and the tube frame in between. This is a lash-up that JPS no longer uses, so I hear. Allegedly stiffer than a pure pan based chassis. And I realize that "do nothing" is an option.
@DannyP, on the bikes we set tire pressure hot as we were looking for a specific tire temperature while on track....(tire warmers help get up to temp quick in practice and we would run couple laps come in check temp, set pressure, do more laps, repeat without wasting a lot of practice time) then after they cool down in the paddock, we noted the "cold" pressure they equalized to at ambient. When race time came and we put new tires on, we had a target "cold" pressure to start with. Naturally the closer in weather/track conditions you are between practice and race the better. So good plan to have a temperature reading device for tires... pressure never really varied much track to track in the summer because there wasn't much change in track/ambient temps, but in spring and fall there could be enough to change our "cold" target a few PSI.
@El Frazoo wrote:
When one says "Konis", what exactly does that mean?
- It is a brand of shock absorbers in several different classes, usually for track use or for spirited back road driving. Some are selectable firmness (Low-Med-High) to tailor them to your car and driving style. They tend to feel firm. I had them for over a decade and loved them - Til I didn't and replaced them with KYB for a little softer ride but gave up a little control.
And can you just throw out the torsion bar leaves and use coil-overs to do the deed?
- No. The front torsion bar leaves (there are like a dozen or so in the front) also hold the front wheel trailing arms in place. To remove the torsion bars means the trailing arms have nothing to connect to (although you can remove 3-4 bars and it still works). At the rear there are separate, solid torsion bars left and right - Maybe 3/4" in diameter. They attach to the front of the spring plates and are anchored in the middle. I don't know if there is a conversion kit for VW pans to run coil-over shocks for suspension (I never looked into that).
I am wondering if a different shock set up might improve things on my car, and before you ask, I have no good idea what shocks I have working at the moment. I could only say "2006 JPS OEM". They are white.
- Given the builder, probably KYB GR2 shocks - They've been popular with the VW set for decades. Decent, basic, gas shocks that tend to soften the response the longer the stroke.
I have IRS and HD sway bars front and rear. Not quite sure what HD means, they are undoubtedly EMPI.
- Stock VW front bar was 3/8" diameter. "HD" (Large) bars are typically 3/4" diameter.
Was asked if I wanted small or large, I chose "large"... I could add that my car is pretty stiff, and corners very flat. Not really complaining, other than to say I do get a lot of front end hop on uneven surfaces (That's kind-of normal because the car is so light and tail-heavy), espy when braking hard. And I'm OK with a stiff ride.
- Probably Empi 3/4" anti-sway bars front and rear. Similar to what I have from another vendor.
The frame is what I'd call a hybrid: has parts from a VW pan (including the VW VIN) , but uses a JPS tube frame also. As I understand it, it has the horns in back, the hat, etc. in front and the tube frame in between. This is a lash-up that JPS no longer uses, so I hear. Allegedly stiffer than a pure pan based chassis. And I realize that "do nothing" is an option.
I know nothing about this Hybrid chassis. (hey.... I can't know everything!) but I assume Steele marketed it as a "FEATURE!"
Lastly, given your description of what's in your car, I think "Do Nothing" is your best option. Maybe a set of adjustable Koni shocks, available from J-Bugs, but that might be about it and only if you move to the Smokies and might then notice a difference.
Like a lot of people, I've put "better" and adjustable shocks on every sporting car I've owned. The IM pan-based Speedster is different than any other I've owned.
The previous owner had a set of KYB GR2s for the car when I bought it. I rebuilt the IM and put them on, added front and rear sway bars. Rode as rough as a washboard.
I took out 3 smaller torsion bars and it was better, but still rough. Bought a lighter set of gas shocks and it was better, but still jarring for the cruising we do and the roads we've got.
I finally broke down and installed OEM VW oil-filled shocks and am happy. Although I don't hoon, when I do, I put 21 PSI up front and the car has great grip and stability. It's pretty flingable.
Don't be afraid to make your car more comfortable. You may not give up as much bleeding edge performance as you'd think. YMMV.
@Michael Pickett posted:Like a lot of people, I've put "better" and adjustable shocks on every sporting car I've owned. The IM pan-based Speedster is different than any other I've owned.
The previous owner had a set of KYB GR2s for the car when I bought it. I rebuilt the IM and put them on, added front and rear sway bars. Rode as rough as a washboard.
I took out 3 smaller torsion bars and it was better, but still rough. Bought a lighter set of gas shocks and it was better, but still jarring for the cruising we do and the roads we've got.
I finally broke down and installed OEM oil-filled shocks and am happy. Although I don't hoon, when I do, I put 21 PSI up front and the car has great grip and stability. It's pretty flingable.
Don't be afraid to make your car more comfortable. You may not give up as much bleeding edge performance as you'd think. YMMV.
The original cars had Koni shocks which were adjustable for firmness and I personally find my KYB gas 911 front strut inserts and rear shocks are too harsh at times on rough roads. Just saying.
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To Koni or not to Koni?
OK, maybe I'm the only one who didn't know, but, unless you've got dropped spindles, you apparently can't put Konis on an old Kirk-era VS. And I think Greg is using basically the same front end set-up on his current builds. (Or, is he?)
Anyway, I recently replaced front shocks after about 50K miles. The front end had gotten even more harsh than it had always been. The old (EMPI) shocks had sagged and were against the stops (no shock travel at all).
We tried Konis, but as they're available only in one length, they were too long and bottomed out, too. EMPI makes a shorter than 'standard' shock and this is what we had to use without going to dropped spindles.
Discuss.
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Interesting I guess I had konis in the original 356A eons ago…
@Sacto Mitch posted:.
To Koni or not to Koni?
OK, maybe I'm the only one who didn't know, but, unless you've got dropped spindles, you apparently can't put Konis on an old Kirk-era VS. And I think Greg is using basically the same front end set-up on his current builds. (Or, is he?)
Anyway, I recently replaced front shocks after about 50K miles. The front end had gotten even more harsh than it had always been. The old (EMPI) shocks had sagged and were against the stops (no shock travel at all).
We tried Konis, but as they're available only in one length, they were too long and bottomed out, too. EMPI makes a shorter than 'standard' shock and this is what we had to use without going to dropped spindles.
Discuss.
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I believe old VS used regular spindles, not dropped. They just used a single adjuster on the front beam to lower it a little. I don't know what front shocks they used (and would love to know) because they don't have dust covers like stock Bug units; not sure if they doctored them as well. The rear shocks are silver KYBs.
Sorta sounds like do nothing. Maybe a touch over 20,000 mi at this point, so guessing the shocks on there are not worn. Hmmm . . . txs for the considered replies. Helpful.
I liked Michael Pickett's "bleeding edge performance" comment. Reminded me of "suffering is optional". As the physical limits of aging snuck up on me, I'm increasingly focused on comfort instead of bleeding edge performance. It's true, getting old is not for sissies.
@El Frazoo posted:Sorta sounds like do nothing. Maybe a touch over 20,000 mi at this point, so guessing the shocks on there are not worn. Hmmm . . . txs for the considered replies. Helpful.
I would just optimize what’s there to make it be the best it can be with what you got. Make sure all your bushings and suspension components are up to snuff as the rubber hardens and cracks with time; and we won’t even go into red urethane components; their self destruction capabilities are legendary.
@Michael Pickett posted:Like a lot of people, I've put "better" and adjustable shocks on every sporting car I've owned. The IM pan-based Speedster is different than any other I've owned.
The previous owner had a set of KYB GR2s for the car when I bought it. I rebuilt the IM and put them on, added front and rear sway bars. Rode as rough as a washboard.
I took out 3 smaller torsion bars and it was better, but still rough. Bought a lighter set of gas shocks and it was better, but still jarring for the cruising we do and the roads we've got.
I finally broke down and installed OEM VW oil-filled shocks and am happy. Although I don't hoon, when I do, I put 21 PSI up front and the car has great grip and stability. It's pretty flingable.
Don't be afraid to make your car more comfortable. You may not give up as much bleeding edge performance as you'd think. YMMV.
I'm "only" 60 (beat up like a 75 y/o), and DO hoon - irresponsibly, on public roadways, and often with cattle or elderly people in walkers in my path.
Still, I'm taking steps toward defanging my lil' plastic Easter-egg from a balls-out mountain weapon into a fast GT. That was the thought behind 350 lb rear springs and removing leaves from the front. The smaller front sway bar is another step in that direction, and if it still isn't soft enough I may try different front shocks. I really want to improve the ride.
As I have confessed to being a bit of a Mick Pickett fanboy, I'm curious about the missing information regarding your setup.
Sway bars?
@Impala posted:I would just optimize what’s there to make it be the best it can be with what you got. Make sure all your bushings and suspension components are up to snuff as the rubber hardens and cracks with time; and we won’t even go into red urethane components; their self destruction capabilities are legendary.
That said, the yellow Pro-thane bushings are the bomb for rear suspension. Significantly better than rubber.
@Stan Galat posted:That said, the yellow Pro-thane bushings are the bomb for rear suspension. Significantly better than rubber.
That is great to know. Would they be the same composition as the black Prothane except for the color? I replaced the stock red urethane pads on the EMPI camber compensator I’ve had in the car for 18 years twice. The first time, about 3 years ago, I replaced the original 15 year old ones which were showing signs of deterioration with some red replacements at CIP1.com which were even worse than the original ones because they just broke off and lost them on the road within a year. I decided not to buy those again so I replaced them with some black square Prothane pads that I found online at Pacific Customs. They fit right in; now I am just hoping they will last.
@Stan Galat posted:I'm curious about the missing information regarding your setup.
Sway bars?
Nothing special, the typical EMPI 3/4" bars front and rear. Probably one reason it likes the softer shocks up front.