4 Lug to 5 Lug Conversion

Do you mean "wide five" wheels (205mm bolt circle) or 911 style 5-lug at 130mm bolt circle?

'cuz this is a modern day Carrera:

 

 

 

Sorry, I was thinking of a '57 356 Speedster Carrera. Still looking through the internet to understand all the what the numbers mean.

Here is the 5 lug wheel I was looking to modify to;

 

If you have drum brakes in the rear you'll need this:

 

http://www2.cip1.com/SearchRes...arch=conversion+drum

 

If you have disc brakes in the front you will need something like this: 

 

http://www.cbperformance.com/P...asp?ProductCode=4201

 

You can also go the wide 5 disc brake route in the rear too, which will, of course, be more expensive.

Note too that if the front of your car was lowered with dropped spindles (vs beam adjusters) you will have to source the original spindles.  I'll trade you stock spindles.  Most VS cars are swing axle rear (vs the later IRS) so if that's the case the rear drums Ron linked to won't work.  If swing axle, I think these are what you need (but depends on width of shoes).

 

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDe...de=VWC-113-501-615-D

 

Other issue that may bite you is wheel offset and width (plus tire size) - pick wrong and tires will scrape the wheel wells.  

 

Don't forget the brake skinz to get true Carrera look.

 

http://www.fibersteel.com/#!/c...ter-front-drum-skinz

 

http://www.fibersteel.com/#!/c...ster-rear-drum-skinz

 

Thank you all. I did look up the wheel definition and what the different numbers all meant. Wolfgang, looks like its a bigger job than originally thought of. I will look over the link ideas you posted as well as yours Ron. I'll keep you posted. Thank you, Michael

Michael -

 

I just completed the wide 5 set up on my VS. I went with the AC industries kit for the front and a set of 67 Italian made drums for the rear all purchased from SoCal

Imports. The front disk kit requires drum spindles.  

 

Its a pretty straight forward project. The only issues I had were a couple of stubborn parts that didn't want to separate (ball joint, tie rod & dust cap). If you have an Autozone close by I would recommend using their tool loner program for a tie rod removal tool. Also one other tool that was a HUGE help was the torque tool for removing and installing the axle nut. 

 

I found a lot of great information here on the forum to help me get through the project. Also highly recommend doing a few youtube searches.  

 

Links below.. Feel free to dialog me with any questions. 

 

Front:

http://www.socalautoparts.com/...attern-5x205-p-13593

 

Rear: (Note: These did require some machining to fit)

http://www.socalautoparts.com/...attern-5x205-p-13593

 

Wheels: Wide 5 Painted Silver

http://vintagespeedsterparts.c...dsilverwheelrim.aspx

 

Tires: Pirelli P4 185/65/15

Tirecrazy.com (Free shipping and no sales tax)

 

Torque Tool:

http://www.socalautoparts.com/...nd-axle-nuts-p-13820

 

Next project is to lower the rear end about an 1.5 - 2 inches!  

 

Nothing looks better than wide 5s on a speedster, although aluminum Porsche spares come close.

Looking pretty sharp, Greg! Are you going to lower the front as well to keep it close to level, or does it sit at front-low rake now?

The rear end is approximately 1.5 - 2 inches too high for my liking. I think the front is okay... Of course it seems everything I do to the car causes me to do something else.. Who know where it stops.. I think this is where "Welcome to the Madness" comes from 

"I think this is where "Welcome to the Madness" comes from"

 

Yeah, you're getting it!

 

If (when looking at the car from the side) it looks like the front is slightly lower than the front (look at the trim strip under the door), then when you lower the back it will be close to level. If it's level now and you lower the back, the front will look too tall.

Two questions:

First, why choose one 5 bolt pattern over the other? Are there advantages of one over the other?

Second, can you convert the front disc to a five pattern without adding width?

Thanks!

Cole

I don't know of any advantages other than the look and thats a matter of opinion. For me, they just add to the vintage look of the car. 

 

As far as the width, my conversion actually reduced it by about a half inch or so allowing me some extra room for the 185/65/15 tires.  

There always seems to be plenty of room in the front wheel wells.  Unless you are running a weird offset even adding 1" per side should not be an issue. A wider track gives better cornering (although it adds extra stress to wheel bearings).  It seems the rear is where any added width causes a problem with wheel wells unless you are ok with dropping back to skinny 4 1/2" rims.

Greg...are you implying that you can run wider tires on the front than the rear? I asked the question about a year ago if it's ok to run slightly wider tires on the front than on the rear and the consensus was pretty much no...not a good idea.

 

What are your thoughts, please ?

Being that I'm so new to the game I'm really not a good person to ask. I did read somewhere that someone was running a 5 1/2" wheel in the front and a 4 1/2" wheel on the rear due to clearance issues. I know there is room in the front to run a wider tire if someone wanted to. At least there is on my car. I wonder why it would be a bad idea? 

 

I'm set up for 185/65/15 all around. Initially I was concerned with having enough room for them in the rear so I did a ton of research before pulling the trigger. Ended up going with a set up similar to what Kirk uses on his wide 5 cars to be certain they would fit.

Why not?

 

Aside from looking odd (reverse staggered wheels), it's important to remember that a rear engined car is prone to oversteer. Giving the front more tire than the back is only going to aggravate the problem.

You can run wider in the front simply because there is nothing on the back side of the wheel to interfere with it.  All you have to worry about is rubbing the inner side of the tire against the inner fender well when the steering is turned all the way to the locks.

 

On the rear, you have that big, honking spring plate sitting relatively close to the inner tire surface.  That means that on a classic sided car (without flared fenders) about the widest rim you can run without rubbing is about 6"

^^What Stan said^^ Ideally, you want a wider back tire and rim with a rear-engined car, but that's not exactly easy with our toys. It can be done- '61-'66 axles and tubes or narrowed irs trailing arms and 6" rims with the right backspacing (the wheel center fairly close to the "front" of the rim instead of somewhere in the middle) and 195's or even 205's may be possible, depending on the body. If you look underneath your car and note the distance between the tire's sidewall and the suspension springplate as well as the top shock mount, you'll get an idea of how much room there is. It may mean custom work to the rear wheels, having the centers moved as I mentioned earlier, and maybe even having the wheels widened an inch or so to the inside. 

 

Ever notice the wide rear rubber Porsche is putting on their rear-engined cars these days? Maybe to tame the car's tail wagging reputation, making them easier (and safer) to drive so they appeal to more of the population? 

 

Years ago, I used to hang out on the Compuserve Miata forum where Bob Hall was a regular.

 

Bob is the nearly legendary auto journalist who convinced the chairman of Mazda to build the Miata and who was eventually hired to become a member of the design team. He regularly chimed in on the forum with nuggets of truth from within the auto industry, explaining the back stories on how a lot of design decisions are really made.

 

One of the things he was adamant about was that light, low-powered cars are much better off with skinny tires because wider tires aren't stressed enough by these cars to come up to their proper operating temperatures, where they get sticky.

 

He said the engineers were under a lot of pressure to fit wider tires because the sports car set is convinced that wider is always better. But the engineers won and fitted the narrower shoes - 185/60-14, if I recall.

 

If anything, our rear-engined cars put a lot less weight on the front wheels than any Miata ever did.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mitch, Bob Hall still posts the occasional comment on Miata.net.  That guy really is a legend.

Mazda did offer a 195/50-15 wheel/tire package on some early Miata models.  My old 1997 Miata came with 195s on a six inch wide wheel and was a special addition called the 'Speedster'

That was more than enough tire for this car, but I did buy another set of track wheels (15x8) and DOT track rubber (225/45-15).  I probably didn't go any faster, but I thought the car looked a lot better with the wider rubber.....less girly.

 

Putting wider wheels or tires on the front of a speedster could possibly affect the handling (in a bad way) and it would look strange......really strange.

 

I run 195s and 6" wheels with custom offsets with IRS and no narrowed trailing arms. The limit is almost always the offset of the 5-1/2" "standard" VW rim and the proximity of the driver's side fender. The trailing arms might mot allow 8" wheels, but they have PLENTY of room, assuming the offset thing can be figured out.

 

Stockton Wheels recenters steel wheels. So does Danny Pipereto (at least on his own car), apprently.

A while back I test fit a 7x16 wide Porsche Boxster wheel on the back of my IM.  The tire was a 205/50 and it cleared the fenders (pan car), and cleared everything except the spring plate bolts.

Those wheels have a large offset-around 55mm, I think.

Just to add a picture to the discussion, here is mine with wide 5's, IRS, 4 wheel disc brakes, and 175 65 15 tires.

Wide fives really are a great look on a Speedster or coupe.  That's one thing I will miss on my new car.  You can't get much of a nicer look.

 

Here's a shot of my previous Speedster with wide fives and drumskins:

 

 

Were the bolt heads or the nuts/ends of the bolts to the tire side? It makes a difference. I've even seen low profile Allen head bolts for more clearance

Bolt heads.