4 lug to Porsche 5 lug adapters

My opinion.....adapters are a bad idea. 

Your tires and wheels are what keep you on the road.  Don't cheap out and go with adapters. 

Do it right and purchase new rotors with the bolt pattern you want.

Unless you want to go with a Fuchs style wheel I'd recommend not going with a Porsche bolt pattern.  The number of wheels available in that pattern are limited and real Fuchs wheels are getting very expensive.

You would be better off going with something like a 4x100 bolt pattern, which would give you literally hundreds of wheel choices at reasonable prices.

Shame you aren't just now converting from drums to disc.  The CIP1 adapters add 1" per side ($69/pr). That will really cut available Porsche rims that will fit.  New rotors are probably quite expensive.  Not a fan of the adapters - too many bolts and too apt to crack.

https://www2.cip1.com/ProductD...uctCode=ACC-C10-6711

Hey Major,

I went the adapter route earlier this year so I could get the 5 x 130 mm bolt pattern and use the repro Fuchs wheels.  They do add an inch per side but the wheels look very cool on these cars in my opinion.  I had to use an Audi lug bolt to get a 14 x 1.5mm bolt that had a 17 mm head so they worked in the adapter.  I believe these are the adapters that Greg references in his reponse.  I've not had any troubles with them to date.  My car actually came with adapters to yield the Chevy 5 x 4 3/4 inch bolt pattern that is very close to a common BMW bolt pattern and by the looks of them they had been on the car for quite some time and were fine.  If you have a normal bodied Speedy then you may have issues with wheel clearance in the fenderwell.  But the Fuchs wheels really look great............

Make sure you torque them by hand if you go that route. The alloy adapters strip and crack if you over do it...

I ran the 4-lug to 5-lug (5X130) 1" thick cast adapters from SoCal parts for about 8 years with 7"-8" wide Fuchs - beat the hell out of them on the track and street and checked them often for potential cracks.  Never saw a crack or any distortions.

Then, I changed to slightly narrower rims and bought a full set of 1-1/4" thick, Custom Billet 6061 adapters from Pelican.  They look like Jewelry, they're so pretty.  At $125 per wheel, they are not cheap.  They're also incredibly tough.  I use VW lug bolts on the 4-lug to hub and studs for the 5-lug wheel.  I've beat the hell out of these for the past 7 years (Street and track) and no sign of any cracks or distortions.  I also haven't seen or felt any indication of the wheel or axle bearing fatiguing (as a few people said would happen).  All seems fine so far.

I have alloy lug nuts against the Fuchs and torque them to about 40-45 ft lbs (that's what the box said to do).  I torque the 4-lug to hub bolts to 50 ft lbs.  Make sure you get the 4-lug holes cut to whatever lug bolts you use; angle-tapered, ball seat (like a VW or Porsche)  or flat. 

gn

Have had the Empi  adapters with Empi 51/2" fuchs on my disc/drum VS for a couple of years with no problems.  If they weren't reliable I doubt that Empi would continue to sell them.

TW

Now that's funny.

Hey Gordon,

On your tourque values: aren't you supposed to tourque the lugs to 85 - 95 ft. lbs on a 14 mm x 1.5 mm bolt/nut?  i thought I read that some where.  or is that too much?

Frank

I think adapters (even spacers) got bad rap in early days of dune buggies.  They put huge stress on them due to jumping and side forces exacerbated by heavy big tires.  It the adapter didn't fail the wheel bearings did.  Still not sure i'd trust EMPI product in any place where there is stress - big company but noted for producing a product as cheaply as possible (read Made in CHINA).  

If you are spending $100+ for an adapter it would probably be just as cost effective to go with new correctly drilled rotors. 

Frank:  That's what the book says for steel-to-steel on a VW sedan.

I'm running aluminum wheels (original Fuchs) onto an aluminum spacer with alloy lug nuts on steel studs, so the Pelican guys told me to go 45 ft lbs. on the alloy nuts.

Then I run steel lug bolts (ball seat) on the 4-bolt pattern of the aluminum spacer and torque them to 50-55 ft lbs but Locktite them in with the Red HD stuff (since the spacer is seldom removed).  None of this is what the book says, but VW sedans never ran aluminum wheels/spacers, either.

Nothing's moving.

Hmmmm. So Im confused (not the first time).  I have aluminum spacers/adapters bolted to the car using steel lug bolts.  They are the ones Greg shows above. I did them up to about 85 ft. lbs as the previous spacers were really tight, although they were steel and not aluminum.  Then I have the CIP1 aluminum Fuchs repros with steel studs (that came with the adapters) and lug nuts at about the same 85 ft. lbs.  Is that too much????

It depends on what the lug nuts themselves are made of.

Usually, alloy lug nuts are torqued lower because their threads don't have the same strength as a steel version might have, so if you really torque them up as tight as a steel one you might strip or snap them.  The steel stud is stronger and remains intact.

That said, the usual Porsche and Pelican "enthusiast" forums tend to be running 85-90 ft lbs on Porsche wheels, with the occasional complaint of stripping/snapping lug nuts off when torquing. I've not seen any problems with my set-up.  When I track it I pump the tires up harder and torque the wheel lugs to 70 ft lbs or so and that seems fine to me.  If you're happier (and/or feel safer) with a higher torque, then go for it.

Thank y'all for the feedback and thoughts. Based on what I have heard and the small amount of space between the tire and the fender well I am going to convert to 5 bolt discs. Any thoughts on the best tires to run on the Porsche rims. I assume I have more size/brand choices than with the VW rims. Thanks again for the help.

I hear you Gordon.  I guess I was thinking about the aluminun adapters and the aluminum wheels and not wanting to crack them.  All that torque may contribute to cracking over time.  My usage is not hard though.....nice drives and all that and not lots of stress.   Its been ok so far but....

Cracking is probably due to the guys at Midas using their rattle air guns set to 150# on crusty wheel studs and nuts or not using a torque wrench and setting them "by eye" to whatever seemed tight (i.e. varying tightness by maybe 20#). Porsche's 94# lug nut torque setting (owner's manual) is for dry clean studs and nuts - anti-seize/lubricant would probably mean 15# less torque.

VW rims are mostly 15 x 4/5.5" - going to Porsche opens you up to 16, 17,18" x 6-9" (or larger) with many different offsets (you can even vary offset from front to rear). (OEM Fuchs are available in 4.5 x 15" early 911 and 5.5 x 14" on 914/6). Rim width drives width of tire selected.  Expect a rough "go cart" ride with low profile tires (but more precise handling).  

Anyone have an X-Ray machine out there; checking an adapter that's done in casting is a real potential problem. One machine from solid bar stock is better unless the drawn bar stock is drawn too fast and left with internal stresses.

Yeah, Mike - that's why I went from cast adapters to machined Billet ones.  Never X-Rayed the cast ones but never had any obvious cracks or distortions either (and I looked at them with a pretty sophisticated microscope at work).  

Still, there was always that lingering doubt, so I 'bit the billet' and had a set machined from 6061.  Much better fit, Studs are all perfectly straight and there was less than .002" run-out in any direction.  Bought them around 2007 -  So far, so good.

What you have for choices in tires will depend (in part) on what you choose for rims. What size tires and rims are on the car now? How much room is between the rear tires and fenders at the moment? Do you presently have discs or beetle drums on the back (going from drums to discs usually adds 5/8" or so to each side of the track)? What rims are you looking at/thinking about or do you already have them? 

I will be converting to 5 bolt Porsche rotors and hubs from 4 bolt VW rotors and hubs. It appears the amount of room in the wheel wells will be about the same. That would mean Porsche 5 bolt 15/5.5 is about what I can fit. My investigation has led me so far to Pirelli P6000 185/70 15. Your thoughts on that tire or others that might fit, perform better, or less $. I plan to continue to go with baby moons but would like to find some better quality one. Anyone used the Sierra Madre "concourse" moons?

As Al mentioned, fender clearance on a regular bodied speedster is must be taken into consideration when thinking about new tires.

When I purchased my new Fuchs replicas (15x6, with a 37mm offset) I bought one very used 195/60-15 tire and had it mounted to one of my new wheels.  I then put the new wheel/tire on the front, checked for clearance and did the same for the back.

The tire cleared in the front and just barely cleared in the rear.

I thought I was good to go and ordered four new 195/60-15 tires.

I was wrong.

What I didn't realize is many pan based speedsters are not perfectly centered on their pans.  Mine was slightly offset to the driver's side, giving that side a bit more rear fender clearance.

As luck would have it, I put it on the side with more fender clearance and when I put a wheel/tire on the other side it rubbed.

Crap!

I ended up having to trade in my extremely low mileage tires for 185/65-15s, which just cleared the problem fender.

I Suspect you plan on going with replica Fuchs wheels, since original Fuchs prices have hit the stratosphere.

They come in 5.5" and 6.0" widths, with varying offsets.  Try to find a wheel with as much offset as possible.  Any wheel over 40mm offset (5" or more of backspacing) would be a good choice.

Cip1 (just as an example) has a 15x5.5" Fuchs replica wheel with a 45mm offset.

This wheel, with a 185/65 tire is a good choice and may fit your car.

Good handling tires in the 185/65-15 size are becoming scarce.  One tire that I've recently come across that would be a good choice for our cars is the Sumitomo HTR A/S PO1 (H or V speed rating)

Consumer Reports tested this all seasons tire and gave it a 'very good' for handling and braking and a 'poor' for snow traction).

If I had to replace my IM's tires this one would be on my short list.

*edit:  You posted while I was typing and I didn't read your comment until I posted mine, so disregard my comments on the Fuchs replicas.

Argh, I thought you were going to 5x130mm '64 up Porsche wheels.  Baby moons?  Those hubcaps are for the older "wide 5" VW and 356 wheels - 5x205mm!  I really wouldn't say there are more wheels available in that pattern.  Far more OEM and aftermarket for the newer 5x130mm pattern. 

Are these the baby moon caps?

http://www.sierramadrecollecti...aby-Moon-p16291.html

I think it will take more than just a rotor change to make that change - calipers and mounting brackets are different too. Maybe its back to adapters? 

I am going with the early 911/912 wheels. I was thinking about the nipple caps as an option as well. I am staying with chrome 10 slot wheels. 

How wide are they?

The P6000 185/70 is I'm sure a very nice tire, but at almost $200/tire, you're baby's getting a very expensive set of shoes! It also scores only 180 for a wear rating, so they won't last long at all, if that's a concern. I would also worry if a tire that tall on the front is going to clear the headlight bucket, depending on how low your car is. On the other hand, both Sumitomo and Yokohama make 185/65's (24.4 vs25.4) that are classed as all season high performance tires 

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/...ter=17&zip-code=

that are way cheaper (Sumitomo, $55, Yokohama, $72/tire, so either will be well over $100 less/tire) and will probably perform as well as the Pirelli.

Depends on what you want. Al

PS- What's on the car now?

I would make sure to source out the guage that allows you to measure just how much room you have. (it was on this site sometime ago) You need to remember the caliper size too might affect the size of wheel you can put on your car, I was looking at some Porsche disk brakes calipers at one point, and some of them needed 17 inch wheels to clear the caliper. It's a challenge and I find there is lots of research to do at times to get it right the first time around. 

The Pirelli P6000 is design for Porsche as a classic performace summer only tire, and that is why it is both soft and expensive. 

http://www.amazon.com/Percy-01...ulator/dp/B002L1GFQE

I'm confused. Are we going from 4 x 130 to 5 x 130 or 5 x 205?

Early 911/12 wheels are 5 x 130. You can get drums and rotors all day long, new, without adapters. I wouldn't use adapters on a narrow car, it increases the track too much.

However, on a widebody car, I understand the adapters as many install spacers to get the right stance and fender fill.