44 IDF teardown??

Symptoms: car has developed an exhaust pipe popping at light throttle, and an increasingly annoying stumble/hesitation to go along with. Mostly, under hard thottle (main jets working), engine seems to go pretty well. Starts fine, idles fine. At Carlisle two things happened: (1) Sat AM discovered a hydro lock on the right side that was cleared when right rear (#3?) plug was removed and the engine turned over some. Presumed to be due to rain water getting in. Used the patented Gordon Nichols car cover product for rest of the week end, and no trouble of that sort again. (2) Sunday AM: R&R right front idle air jet (near top of carb) and found tiny black spec in there, which was blown out easily. Car seemed to run better, for a while, but symptoms reappeared during trip home to DC area. Some little driving since has come to worsening conditions. JPS says likely something in the carb, suggests replacing fuel filter (2.5 K mi. total on car) and cleaning the jets. Others have suggested the same. I figure yank the carb and do a total job, vs. breaking back and fingers trying to do insitu. Question: would the ECBT (or any other smart folks) back this plan? What else could it be? Should I be thinking something else here? And if I have the carb top off, how do I check the float level? What is the "spec" for that? Would I need a rebuild kit of some sort to get things back together properly? If so, where obtained?

Other symptoms: pulling the plug wire on the right front cyl (#1?)when idling has no effect on idle speed, while pulling the others does. Screwing in the low speed mixture jet on that throat has no effect either. Spraying carb cleaner at the manifold flange had no effect.

I'd go ahead and pull 'em. If you're just R&R-ing the idle jets, you can leave the carbs in, but I think you'll want to clean out your floats as well. When the water got in there, any loose flotsam in the air filters got down in the float chambers. If you are careful not to touch the idle mixture or speed screws, you should be able to put it all back together without needing to adjust them. While you're at it, go ahead and change the filters, or at least the one in the engine compartment, as well.

Kelly-without-the-"e":

The symptoms point to a clogged idle jet on that cylinder. VERY common on that carburetor, so you have LOTS of company. If I remember correctly, Mr. Drake is using Dells so his lightning-fast jet cleaning process may be only partially useful, but Weber jets are reasonably easy to get at to clean without pulling the carb from the manifold (i.e; leave in place without loss of knuckle flesh). If you pull'em and clean'em and it still persists, THEN pull the carb(s) for a rebuild and change the bottom manifold gasket at the same time (It's easier to remove carb and manifold together than to pull just the carb). Trouble is you won't know the shape of the manifold gasket til you get the thing out }>(

If all you do is clean the jets, then you won't need a rebuild kit, but I usually have one or two kits kicking around just for the heck of it, so buying a few kits would be good insurance.

When you have the jets out, also remove the air mixture screws: First, notice their orientation of the screw slot, then turn them in until they gently bottom out (DON'T force them!) while counting how many turns it takes (it should be about 1-1/2 if I remember from Carlisle). The remove them while carefully watching for any O-rings or tiny washers on the inside end and, with the jets still out, blow about 20 lbs. of compressed air in through the mixture screw hole (it'll blow out through the jet holes - watch for blowing gas cloud). If you don't have a compressor, then use an aerosol can of Carb Cleaner with the little spray tube attached (I like Gumout, but most are pretty good). Do all four mixture screw holes, disassemble the jet assemblies (if necessary) and blow them out then reassemble everything, returning the mixture screws to their proper orientation (gently bottom then back out).

I would debate changing the filter. Certainly wouldn't hurt, especially if there is only one (I'm running two - one before the fuel pump up front and another before the carbs out back) but you have little mileage on it and the water wouldn't have made it in through the filter unless it was in the tank to start with. For THAT I would throw in a full can/bottle of dri-gas in 8 gallons of gas and run the tank out. If there's water in there, or in the float bowls, that'll remove it.

I can't help on float level settings. I seem to have misplaced my Weber manual between houses and can't find it. You should buy Bob Tomlinson's Weber Super Performance manual from CB just so you'll have a competent reference handy in the future. Best $20 you'll spend.

gn

Your clearance between the carbs and the side of your engine compartment is so tight that I still think removal is the way to go. Of course, that same lack of space will make access to the front mounting bolts a pain.

Blackie just went thru the same malady. It's been 2 years since I did my carbs. #3 on mine was popping and at one point when I pulled that wire there was no change in engine speed. Fact of the matter is, Kelly , you need a good blowjob....ah..er...I mean your carbs do. More of just a good cleaning than a "rebuild". Works wonders. I pulled my carb, removed the top, and carefully poured out the gas. Pulled the mixture screws as per Gordo's instructions(watch for the small springs in there) and jets, and had at it with the carb cleaner and air hose. You can use computer canned air if you have no compressor. Spray any small orifice you find down in the jet bosses, up thru he mixture screw holes and follow up with the air. You should get the book and check/set the floats.(easy) New carbs are known to have mis-set floats right out of the box.
Don't know about Webers, but my Dells have small filters in the carb fuel inlets. I clean them too. In my car it's easier to pull just the carbs. Ohhh what a difference this makes! The only catch for you may be that the hex-bar linkage pull may need adjusted and carbs should be synched with the snail gauge after doing this. Wish you were closer lest we could do this at my place.
Oh yeah, you can get any parts/gaskets at Peek Performance(.com) over in Seabrook MD.

~WB

Just an observation, but my idle jets get dirty even with a very large and effective filter. I have gone on the record saying that Webers make their own dirt.

However, a recent tear down of a couple of 48's show the accelerator diaphragm was falling apart in both carbs. I am thinking the new fuels using alcohol in part attacks the rubber and it falls apart. Either that or just plain crappy materials in the first place.

You might want to check the diaphrams.......

Hmmm, diaphragms rotting in ethanol -?- A hidden dirt machine included in the carb, making dirt out of nothing -- interesting concept. Had not thought of that one. Only a year old and 3K mi., but maybe could be. I'll get to Peek's and get a couple of kits, including pump diaphragms. I wonder if there would be a choice of material for replacement diaphragms? Seems some sort of silicone might be an improvement over neoprene or other rubber-ish thing.

Folks: txs for the pointers. Very much looking forward to smooth running again. I think I'll pull the carb (already done that once before on the other side when original carb turned up cracked). WIll also get the book.

Wasn't that the symptom of the "virus" in the original "Andromeda Strain" (the GOOD one, with Dustin Hoffman). The "Space Bugs" ate rubber for breakfast..

Dustin Hoffman wasn't in the original Andromeda Strain Movie (1970-1971)

It featured David Wayne, James Olson, Kate Reid,Mark Jenkins

Whoa!

MAJOR "Early Onset Alzheimer's" moment there......

Had the film right for the rubber-eating bugs, but had the wrong title AND the wrong actor (Larry had it right)....

Boy! Crossed "Andromeda Strain" with "Outbreak"!!

That's what you get when someone slips you one of them "Margarita" things instead of Scotch... }>(

Damn Jose Cuervo, anyway....

come to think of it....I wonder if those bugs ate any rubber, after all......

Screw it! Back to the Scotch!

I wonder how those damn diaphragms would react to the scotch?? Maybe if over 12 years old, would be OK. Meanwhile,

went to Peek's and got the goods -- 44 IDF rebuild kits, times two, plus a snail, which all advise is the ONLY way to go. My old Unisyn seemed ok, but I suppose this will be better. Any last minute pointers before I tear into this bad boy? Can't wait to see what's inside, and if the old adage about what happens to battle plans the moment the first shot is fired still applies to engine mechanicing too. I'm betting it does.

Carb manual come yet?

Yeah, good point.

I wouldn't even THINK of opening one of those up without Tomlinson's tomb on "how to do it right" (or at least something decent off of the web).

If you've already got it or can borrow one for the weekend, then have at it. If you don't, then ORDER ONE and don't crack the top without it!!

I think the diaphragms will be OK with Scotch. Might smell a little musty thereafter....kinda like "Turf"

;>)

(and whoever first thought up the idea of burning "Turf" for fuel musta been pretty desperate).

Book can be seen listed from Google and Amazon, among others no doubt, for prices ranging between $15.00 to $59.95 -!-

CB lists it for $10.95; my order is on the way. Might get started on the tear-down w/out if does not arrive in time. Will wait to get ed-you-cated before reass'y. Meanwhile, has anybody found/designed/built some nice little aluminum umbrella top-hats that could fit over the air filters and so keep the water out? This seems so easy to do, I may try it myself.

Carey has some fiberglass ones. You have to mod them a bit to clear the linkage (which I have yet to do), but installation should be relatively easy. I'm trying to thing of some interesting way to paint mine, rather than leaving them flat black.

How about big block letters that say $5.159/gal -- just as a gentle reminder of where we are headed. Flames does not sound like quite the right thing either, at least not for Eddy. Does the Porsche crest come as a decal?

I was wondering about that myself. I could spray them a color close to what I have on the body, put on some Porsche crests, and clear coat over them. Hmmm...

Kelly:

Five words:

"Aluminum bread pans"

"Walmart Housewares"

gn

Kelly.....Check your air cleaner element sealing surfaces....I had a problem when my car first arrived caused by a piece of rubber from the moulding of the seal had not been completely removed and had shed itself into the carb when the element was installed....Filter should be good, but changing it is cheap insurance....

Kelly, just did this myself before Carlisle. I got a lot of water in the float bowls. Anyway, only had one clogged jet(Thursday night at Carlisle) since I cleaned them, must have missed a speck. The water and gas and alcohol form a white sludge that sometimes floats but mostly sticks in the bottom of the bowl. Then little pieces break off and clog your idle jets. The only thing that fixed mine was to pull the carb tops and clean it all out, pull the accel jets, main jets, idle jets and holders, and mixture screws. Do like Gordon says and turn them all in, and write it down. Make sure every piece goes back where it came, and all should be ok. It still bothers me that #1 read low on the synchrometer. Loosen up the idle bypass locknuts while you have the carbs out. Blow it all out w/compressed air, 20 psi is fine. Stay away from carb cleaner, it is very caustic and can damage accelerator pump diaphragms. Pay special attention to the float bowls, they must be clean as a whistle. Webers are pretty simple, once you get in there and have a look. The Tomlinson/CB book is very good, but I cannot find where it says the float height.I remember I did find it somewhere, but the spec would have had the float bottoming out on the float bowl floor. I think I set them so they wouldn't bottom, and there was about 10mm between the top of the float and the carb top when the float valve was closed. There are online articles about doing this if you can't wait for the book. Or call me, I'll walk you through it(Cory's got my numbers). You don't need a rebuild kit to clean them, the old gaskets will probably be fine.

You are correct Danno.
http://www.piercemanifolds.com/Float_Level_1.htm
I use an Allen wrench or the shank of a drill bit calipered to the right size to set my floats.

~WB

Bill Wrote: "I use an Allen wrench or the shank of a drill bit calipered to the right size to set my floats."

Sounds like someone who used to work on Rochester/Autolites!!

Yup, Danno.....10mm sounds about right. I think there might be a spec for the float drop when the cover is held right-side-up, too, but I can't remember that one.

Finally found the time to take my car out for a test run yesterday, and she's running great....again! The last time I replaced the intake lower gaskets I didn't have two of the correct ones, so I used a different one in a pinch, thinking "it might work out OK". No dice....took one of Chris' friends for a ride and when I blasted past 6 grand it sucked the gasket in and distorted it. Order another two-year+ supply from CB, glued them in with spray-on prematex and used my new, short, 11mm sockets I found at Carlisle to tighten them and Presto!! Good to go.

Now I can do some New England cruise nites!! One of the local groups is making a run to Bennington, Vermont in July for the annual Hemmings Motor News Cruise Night, so I think I'll tag along...

You guys, as usual, are awesome. I was just sweating the float setting business, so needed the spec. The web link is right there -- thanks. Been around the old Solexes a few times, and I can't count the number of lawnmowers, etc. The theory is all the same, but the exact specs are what you need. Txs again. Still not finding time to get into this, but this week, for sure I'm gonna start. W/ all this talk about the sh-- that gets in these bad boys, it is a wonder they work at all. Can't wait to see what I find. I'll take pictures. Will use air where sensitive parts, and carb cleaner on the bare brass/Al. I do have the rebuild kits, so have spare parts if I botch something. Going in, I'm thinking R&R w/ clean in between, not so much an actual "rebuild". Ah, the best laid plans of mice and men . . .

OK, guys.....we're goin' in!

"yes, SIR!"

Got'cha 10m wrenches?

Check!

Got'cha Carb Cleaner?

Check!

Got'cha compressed air?

Check!

Got'cha specs to put'em back the way we found'em?

Check!

Got'cha Latex gloves to keep ;em clean?

HEY, WAIT A MINUTE!!

WE DON' NEED NO STEENKIN LAYTEX GLOVES!!

THEY JUS' GET CAUGHT IN THE GAS INLETS!!

Oh.....yeah.....

No Latex gloves, then.....

CHECK!!>

Roger, wilco, Col. Nichols, we got 'em in our sights, and nothing can go wrong . . . go wrong . . . go wro .

Update:

FINALLY, I put enough hours together to look into the carb business. Even having the advantage of a covered garage, good drop light, the right tools, and a 'frdge properly supplied, getting to the idle air jet on this carb in-situ is a bear. I decided not to pull the carb outright as the first cut, but rather go for a air jet and mixture screw removal, cleaning and replacement. Try the simple stuff first, I thought. Prior to doing this I poured in some dry gas, as recommended and drove around some. So, I get the rear air jet out and it has a real dirt clod in there, for sure. At Carlisle when this jet was removed and inspected it was hard to see the little spec that was in there. This time: no problemo, as the main channel in the jet looked clogged up shut. Blew this out, doused w/ carb cleaner, removed the mixture screw and blew canned air through the circuit both ways, and replaced all parts. Car runs very much better now, but I gotta say it is still not there yet. Popping out the back and definite stumble at low accelerations is gone now, but there is still a pronounced miss in the engine at a wide range of revs. I figure the other jet is very likely clogged too, and so this PM will attempt R&R of that rascal. Being at the front near the firewall, this one is the harder of the two to reach. May end up yanking the carb yet.
Tomlison book also mentions the water, gas, aluminum, brass, etc. combo working over time in the float chamber. I really should pop the lid and have a look. On the other hand, if blowing out the jets gets me running OK, then maybe all is fine in there -?-

PS: wrt the two 11 mm nuts that hold the manifold to the engine, what sort of wrench works to get those to move? Seems there is no room for a socket, and even less room for an open-end to swing. There must be a trick to this one. Anybody know it? I was able to verify that the nuts are tight. Whoa there Vince, take it easy . . .

I have a set of Craftsman metric wrenches that look like your typical open-at-one-end, closed-at-the-other wrenches, but the closed end includes a ratchet mechanism. They're pretty short and work well for me, but, as I recall, you have very little space around the carbs in your engine compartment. They MIGHT work for you.

Click on this link: http://www.spyderclub.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=8411

Once it's open to a post, you'll see the word "download" on the right lower side of your screen. Click the work download and an exploded view of a Weber 44 IDF will appear.

Gordon got a very thin wall 11mm socket from Sears, I think 1/4" drive and built in u-joint, I think it is called a flex socket or flex head socket. That and a long 1/4 extension ought to do it, Kelly. If you have had water, and we know you have, just cleaning the idle circuit is a temporary fix, as there is 100% probability of more CRAP in the float bowl. Suck it up and get it out of there, it really isn't that hard to do. In your car, I'd just pull the carb and'or manifold, you won't be able to clean it properly in the car. Do both sides, take pictures if needed. Once you get it done, you'll know that it wasn't that bad.

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00992152000P?vName=Tools

You guys are awesome. Thanks for the tips. I decided to lift the carb top, w/ carb in place on engine. Seemed like it would be easy, and it was. Saw some slight bit of debris in there on the bottom, soaked out the gas w/ paper towel and ran the shop vac in the float chamber and sucked out last bit of gas and everything else. Saw no water, but the dry gas should have eaten that, right? Also, w/ top off, the forward idle air jet is MUCH more handy, and came out easily. Used the air blown in both sides of the circuit, and so will put it all back and see what happens. That second air jet may have had some stuff in there, it was hard to tell. I have another "trick" question: what is the trick to drive the pin out of the float pivot? I was going to replace the top gasket, although it looks in good shape, and see that the float has to come off first. That pin is in there damn tight. Have decided to just put it back and tighten the screws and see what happens. I guess you use a tiny drift and beat it out -?- It ought to slide out easily seems to me, and be kept from coming apart when assembled by close fit in the carb body. That's the way I would have done it.

More later.

PS: Sears webpage has some serious trouble -- can't get squat on that one. Guess they're sleeping . . .

Kelly,
Please be careful sucking the last little bit of gas out of the float bowl with a vacuum cleaner. It doesn't take much fuel vapor and a small spark from the electric Vac motor to create a sound you don't want to hear.

BTW, be careful lifting the tops of the carbs off. The gasket between the top and the base is easy to tear and you need to buy a full carb rebuild kit to get a replacement. Also, my float pin was easy to push out with the flat of a screw driver and then pull out with fingers.

Good luck.

Kelly, you already have a replacement gasket set, don't you? That pin should just slide right out, and indeed should be held in by the bowl. Maybe it is stuck with some varnished fuel. Mine slid right out, adjusted the float level, reinstalled with the same gaskets. The jet you are talking about is the idle jet, and I believe it meters mixed air and fuel, which is why crap in the float bowl or crap on top of the carb(outside) can plug a jet. CLEAN fuel and air are essential for Webers, then they are pretty trouble-free. Try Larry Jowdy's trick of a light coat of grease on the air filter bases(the rubber part) to keep dirt off the carb tops.

I think Larry was suggesting coating the full base of the air cleaner - the metal part.

Maybe he can clarify.

Got nearly all of the gas out using a paper towel. Had a thought about the gas vapor and the vacuum, but considered it very small risk. Just really using the vacuum to lift out the dirt particles and the remaining "wet" of the gas. Seems to have worked OK as I am here to tell about it. As mentioned, I punted on removing the float and so the gasket, which by the way I did manage to tear in one place. I applied some magic silicone grease to the gasket at the tear, and was VERY careful replacing it. I'll be on th look out for gas weeping in this location, and will do the job proper if there is trouble. There is realy no pressure to drive the gas through this seal, and so I am hopeful this will work OK. The pivot pin is in there damn tight, and the whole thing is so new (~ 1 year) that excess varnish does not seem likely -- but maybe. I did the quick idle jet blow-out on the carb on the driver's side. Having now been trained well enough, I was able to R&R the two idle air jets w/ only the air filter removed in about 15 mins, or less. Could not tell if they were clogged, or just had a little fuel in there blocking the view through. Anyway, I gave them the business and then put them back in. Did not uncover the float bowl on this carb to inspect and clean. I do not have a full report on how the motor works after all of this, except to say this AM I fired it up and ran it in place a minute or so, and it seems to work just fine. Seemed smoother right from the get go. I have to run off to Ohio this PM and so drove the real car today to leave at the AP. Will go for a Speedy spin upon return, and will give a full report afterwards.

PS: I did renew the fuel filter too. Could not see any particles of anything in the old one, but you never know . . .

Kelly.....you should be very alarmed about the gas vapour going into a vaccum cleaner......The electric motor will usually be an AC, or AC/DC unit incorporating an armature and brushes....With any age, there is an almost constant spark source being generated...Nuff Said...

I can just hear Kelly's neighbors:

"Ned! Did that Kelly guy over across the street get a new grill?

I just saw him out in front of his garage with some new-lookin' grill thing and it had BIG flames comin' out of it!

He was dancin' around tryin to fan it with some sorta book or sumthin.....I think it said "Weber Super Performance" or sumthin...."

OK, OK, I get it: I'll wait til the gas has dried out before I try the shop vac again.

SO I put it all back together, and tried it out tonight. Guess what? It works like a champ. Engine running smooth, repsonsive, no popping, chuffing, etc. I will admit I had some grave doubts that such a "simple" cleaning would make such a difference, but there it is -- just like you guys said. Just in time for the family trek to the beach house, and Speedster cruisin', CA style. I'll be walking (driving, actually) on egg shells hoping this fix lasts.

BTW: said Beach House, located in Bethany BEach, DE is available to Speedster Owners to rent at a very attractive discount, if you might be so inclined. It is about 1.5 blocks from the water, 3 BR, fully furnished, and very nice. More info to anyone interested.

Meanwhile, I am hoping this thread will be closed, and the info here will be of use to others. Txs guys.