5 speed trans

how hard is it to convert a four speed swingaxle, to a five speed. is it easier to change the hole thing to irs, or try to change just the box, and have new axle shafts made and convert. am trying to find out the easyiest way to get 5 speeds.

I'm going the route of a Berg 5 speed. I'm running an IRS transaxle. Berg can go either way.
I believe with a Porsche 901/902, you have to run IRS.
There's little modification when installing a Berg.

Has anyone come up with a better price that 6k?

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=683051

Just an observation but over the last 5 years or so I have seen pehaps as many as 20 Berg 5 speeds for sale on the Samba or eBay, maybe even more,l one was only $1100 NOS, others have been as low as $1500 in that last year or two. Most of them are advertised as new or "unused new or old stock". The question one might need to ask is "if they are so darned good (and expensive) why are so many not used by the people who bought them?" I don't know the answer by the way, just wondering, and I would want to know the answer before I sprung for even a decent percentage of $6k for one.

Jim,
I would question those prices.
The Berg kit cost over $1,500 and then there's the modification cost.
You need the main shaft lengthened and if you don't have a super diff, you'll need to purchase one as well.
Dave, mine isn't going to cost that much. Email me and I'll put you in touch with my guy. Depending on what you have already, he can put together a tranny for substantially less. Not as cheap as what Jim is quoting, but you'll get a quality transaxle.
On the down side: My Rancho Performance tranny was not a great candidate for a donor. The case was cheap and the internals were of poor and questionable quality.
If isn't stated enough, when you are planning a new build, do your research and supply your own engine and transaxle to the builder. That is, unless the builder keeps you in the loop and part of the conversation between the drivetrain builder(s) and the car manufacturer.
Once I'm finished with my rebuild I will post my experience here.

Terry,

I appreciated the comments and offer to share info, will take you up on that early next year.
I have an IRS stock 69' mated to a 73' 1776. depending on my SB100 outcome on Jan 2, 09 I will know which way to go on upgrading.

BTW Thanks mucho for the headlight screen email.

Cheers
Dave

I understand what it costs to build a Berg new. I have an ERCO catalog in front of me. What I am referring to are all the Bergs that someone has built, then they don't use them for one reason or another, or they run them a couple of times and take them out. My opinion is between the 5 speed shift pattern, and keeping everything aligned and working, it may not worth the hassle to some people. I know one party who broke several mainshafts in a 5 speed conversion by one of Bergs competitors. I have not heard of the same problem with Bergs kit.....

The Rancho built Berg 5 speed for sale on TheSamba right now is perhaps a fairly reasonable price at $6k, given the price of the piece parts that make it up....they quoted me over $3k last week for a 4 speed Rhino cased swing axle with a Super diff and hard side plates, and custom 1/2 gears and welded 3/4th etc.....plus $350 core charge....

I would shop theSamba for a few weeks and see what shows up....Berg 5 speed wise that is....

I thought I wanted a Berg 5 speed sometime back so I have been following these for a bit. I have finally concluded it really makes more sense for me to modify the car in question for a Suby 5 speed and 2.5 engine and forget the Berg

Are you sure you can flip the ring and pinion in a subie? I've never looked at one up close personally, but I have it in pretty good authority that you can't flip them. If you can, let me know which ones as I would also be interested in this for a future speedster build.

By $6K for a 5 speed Berg? Good lord... We spec'd out a Mendeola for a turbo 911 spyder build at just under 6K with the understanding we would be stuffing 450 horsepower through it and we could pick gear ratios throughout...

angela

Angela,

I am looking at using the Suby as a mid engine config, so the transmission does not need anything flipped and I understand they cannot be readily flipped. That, and I picked up a new 2 wheel drive Suby tranny new a couple of years for something else, so I don't have to do the conversion of the 4 wheel version either. Some of the sand folks suggest this transmission will handle 250 hp or so. And you are right about $6K for a Berg not being a good idea...that was at least part of the point I originally intended on my comment. I do have the new prices on the key parts and they pretty much come near to the $6k level, just for parts...and I have also looked at Mendola and $6k does not go very far with them...not far at all. I picked the ratios I wanted, the case etc, and I was over $12k with them....

Jim that sounds very interesting . I thinking of doing a 550 spider fastback. but still want the vw engine. The Subaru 5 speed Or even their Automatic 4 speed tran's would work well in a mid engine car.
Will they adapt to he vw engine with a Kennedy kit or go straight on?

A fully automatic bus tranny may work but I don't know the max hp it will take. ~Alan

To your question:
- how hard is it to convert a four speed swingaxle, to a five speed. is it easier to change the hole thing to irs, or try to change just the box, and have new axle shafts made and convert. am trying to find out the easyiest way to get 5 speeds.

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Just to let you know, the highest first and second gear mainset for a 091 trans w/a 4.57 RP you might find is 2.64 x 1.93. The Rancho/GB 5 speed 091 trans that you see advertised has gears from 3.33,2.08,1.50,1.14 and .77 using a 4.57 RP. This say's Custom with a lot of $$$$$ signs.

Just for comparison using a 25" dia. tire, a stock type1 4.12 RP trans with a 3.78 x 2.06 mainshaft will do 14 and 26mph at 3000rpm.
The 091 w/a 3.33 x 2.08 using a 4.57 RP will do 15 and 23mph at 3000rpm.
Not to rain on your parade, but I often took off in Second (2.06). So when I had Rancho build my box, I used a 3.11 x 1.86 mainshaft using a 3.88 RP, this put me at 18 and 31mph. My intent was to use a 3.44 but as of Sept. 08 US Gear say's two years to another batch run so I bought the 3.88, all the while keeping my eyes pealed as to when these arrive..., I'll buy one and set it aside.

Anyway, if you want a type1 drag box, change third and fourth out for a lower set. For a 091, put 31" tall tires under your fenders..., NOT.
If your wanting a type1 box to cruise with, gear it from forth down to first (RoadRace Style). Another words, leaving fourth stock and changing out 3, 2 and 1 for higher gear sets. This is pricy..., 700 for a 1st and 2nd mainset.

Until a manufacture steps up with a kit that includes a 2.64 x 1.60 mainshaft for a 091 trans, a type1 4 speed well spank it in gearing / speed for road race.
For Off-Road, an 091 with big tires 30-35's, is in it's element and hard to beat. IMO

Here's a couple of gear site links.

http://www.et-studios.com/motorsports/gears/gears.html

http://www.longenterprises.com/high_performance_parts.htm

See Ya. David

Over 12K? Dang Jim! For 12K it better massage my feet between shifts! I just looked on their site and you could definately get to 12K in a hurry.

That old 915 I have sitting in the shed is starting to look mighty fine... Even if I drop 2K on an overhaul it's still looking sweet!

angela

Angela, with Steve's permission I will be happy to massage your feet....opps, wrong forum....retract.....and yes, the old 911/914 tranny's are looking better and better. I am building a Speedster right now which is what got me into looking at transmissions again...or maybe better put, still.

A Suby transmission to VW would require an adapter. If I use the Suby transmission I have, it will be with a 2.5 Suby on it, but that is still in the future...

And to David's point I am running a 3.44 R/P with a 2.58 first
1.86 second, 1.26 third, and 0.93 fourth in my Spyder. 65 MPH is 2815 RPM. While I like the transmission with 200 hp +/-, it is a bit too much. I think a 3.88 R&P would have been a better choice. At 7000 rpm in 4th I have a theoretical top speed of 164 mph. And I am here to report that over 125 mph the front end gets really light in my car.... I ran it up to very close to 140 once, not going to do that again, I was no longer steering it....so, having a top end of more than 40 mph over where it is safe to drive seems silly now that I have done it....

Alan ! The bus transmisson is longer and And the gearing is just way wrong for this.

Some early buses used the 003 Audi like I have used in both my cars..They have different ring gears 3.67, different valve bodies ,and goveners. The internals will exchange from both versons of the 003 from one to the other.

But the bigger bus automatic is all to it's self.I was hoping to swap out a 341 ring gear into one of mine but its different.

I'd say the berg 5 speed is his best option for his car. But I still would like to learn more about the suby automatic's ,,and to see what that offers.. as a candidate for my coupe project.. remmeber guy's I got bad knees..

I just turned 1000 miles on the Turbowassermeccanica with a 915 5 speed transmission and I think it is a sweet transmission. 162HP at the wheels gives me effortless high speed cruising in 5th gear, great acceleration in 4rd to 100MPH (6000 RPM), crazy fast 3rd gear performance and fast off the line in 1st and second. Actually, 1st just seems to get me rolling, all the work is in 2nd and third in the 1/8th mile smile. Keep that 915 Angela and put it to good use.

Tomm

We overhauled the one that's in Butters. They are really not hard that hard to take apart and put back together. Mostly parts that you have to buy that make up the cost.

Let's see. Regarding the 915 in the shed. $2,000 for someone else to do a pretty thorough overhaul, $1,500 for a Quaiffe, $3,500 total. Not bad. Not bad at all!

angela

Then there is also a kit available that converts a Porsche 901 to a swing axle configuration. Is it still available? I remember one Spyder had one installed.

I believe the kit is still available from ERCO. There was an article in Hot VW a couple of years ago on how to install one. Not a simple process, and not real cheap either, but is another option. I had given some consideration to using the Suby transmission I have with the ERCO swing axle kit, but have done nothing in that direction other than think about it....too many other projects underway....