550 spyder transmission and engine issue

I would love to have a 914 5spd in my Spyder too!

As far as "doable" I'm sure it is with enough money. Most Spyders have a swing axle rear end and the 914 5spd is like the VW IRS. Meaning, there are two axle boots per axle not just one as the swing axle has. I'm not sure if the extra length of the 914 5spd will be a problem though.

There are a couple of Spyders here that have the VW IRS 4 spd tranny. It takes more fabrication, but it makes for a nicer handling rear end. The limiting factor then, is the VW front beam that most of our cars come with. There is the Mendeola front suspension though. If your building your car from scratch, that might be an option. There is a member that is putting one of these in his build as we type.

Most of the brain trust is at Carlisle at the moment, but when they get back, they'll for sure chime in.

Good day Carlos G,thank you very much for you very helpful answer, ...now i know, it can be done by my mechanic friend,maybe we need to change the arms depending on the length demand or do some modification,we are planning to buy an old beetle with rear IRS axle  and install it on the rear of 550 spyder instead of the standard swing axle,IS IT POSSIBLE?

Yes car is built from scratch but we installed the front suspension from 66 beetle,and thATS the reason why i go for the IRS axle side because of the transmission that  im going to install is the 914 tranny which is IRS.

Carlos, can i use the 914 tranny into my  912 engine?what are the modification to be made?

thank you

bai

Good day Carlos G,thank you very much for you very helpful answer, ...now i know, it can be done by my mechanic friend,maybe we need to change the arms depending on the length demand or do some modification,we are planning to buy an old beetle with rear IRS axle  and install it on the rear of 550 spyder instead of the standard swing axle,IS IT POSSIBLE?

Yes car is built from scratch but we installed the front suspension from 66 beetle,and thATS the reason why i go for the IRS axle side because of the transmission that  im going to install is the 914 tranny which is IRS.

Carlos, can i use the 914 tranny into my  912 engine?what are the modification to be made?

thank you

bai

This  VW IRS suspension installation may be difficult to impossible as a direct swap. If your Spyder is mid-engine and the VW IRS is rear-engine, it well may not work. I'm in the process of having an IRS Mid-engine Spyder frame built right now by VMC in Hawaiian Gardens California. This will be Gregs first production of one. You may want to contact him...........Bruce

aircooled posted:

This  VW IRS suspension installation may be difficult to impossible as a direct swap. If your Spyder is mid-engine and the VW IRS is rear-engine, it well may not work. I'm in the process of having an IRS Mid-engine Spyder frame built right now by VMC in Hawaiian Gardens California. This will be Gregs first production of one. You may want to contact him...........Bruce

I have a couple of pictures of an IRS spyder that Vintage did in 2004.  They used what looks to be the same trailing arm as their swingaxle and added an upper and lower link to locate the suspension side to side.

Any pictures of the new design yet?

I'm not sure if your 912 will mate with the 914 tranny. I do know that the way a 914 tranny mounts to the actual car is completely different than how a VW tranny is mounted.

I don't think you can use the rear IRS VW control arms with a mid engine car like the Spyder. The engine is in the way. I also don't think the VW IRS axles are interchangeable with the 914 IRS axles. If I'm understanding you correctly. They might have to be adjusted length wise, though. I'm not sure if the 914 is the same width as a 550.

I think there was a Spyder builder that used to use the suspension arms from a 914, but he no longer builds cars. I think was the name Ryan. I at least saw picture of one.

Here is a picture of a VW IRS tranny in a 550 using 4 parallel arms. You could do something similar.

There is another suspension called a De Dion, but if you going to go to all the trouble, you might as well go with the parallel arms.

Where are you located?

Carlos G posted:

I'm not sure if your 912 will mate with the 914 tranny. I do know that the way a 914 tranny mounts to the actual car is completely different than how a VW tranny is mounted.

I don't think you can use the rear IRS VW control arms with a mid engine car like the Spyder. The engine is in the way. I also don't think the VW IRS axles are interchangeable with the 914 IRS axles. If I'm understanding you correctly. They might have to be adjusted length wise, though. I'm not sure if the 914 is the same width as a 550.

I think there was a Spyder builder that used to use the suspension arms from a 914, but he no longer builds cars. I think was the name Ryan. I at least saw picture of one.

Here is a picture of a VW IRS tranny in a 550 using 4 parallel arms. You could do something similar.

There is another suspension called a De Dion, but if you going to go to all the trouble, you might as well go with the parallel arms.

Where are you located?

That’s the type of suspension I was talking about.  I don’t see 4 parallel arms, only 2, with a longitudinal arm, same a the swingaxle.  

I would like to see a double H arm style suspension.

I don't know if I have the terminology correct.

I'm not good that way.

I can see it, but I can't write it.

All I know, is I want it.

Wouldn't it be a more direct fit to put in a type 4 instead of the 912 engine?  If it were me, I would sell the 912 engine and buy a type 4.  I am assuming you are talking about a replica 550 spyder, and if so, there is little to no reason to use a Porsche engine.  Why not go with an engine that fits to the transaxle?

Thank you guys for all the heads up,now we will back to the table again and plan another options,

thank you for all the helps

bairedge

posting here the engines and trannys , 

912 engine,901 tranny,the complete 914 engine and the chassis of 550 s[yder

and our 914 engine that needs some work

T-4 all the way if it where me, good luck!

Am I missing something here?  I was always under the impression  that a 912 and 914 engine were BOTH “Type 4” engines.  The 912 had a stand-up fan shroud (like we’re accustomed to) while the 412 boxy station wagon car (with the same engine) had a “pancake” shroud to get everything under the floor of the car, like a Type 3 but a 2-litre engine.

Gordon Nichols posted:

Am I missing something here?  I was always under the impression  that a 912 and 914 engine were BOTH “Type 4” engines.  The 912 had a stand-up fan shroud (like we’re accustomed to) while the 412 boxy station wagon car (with the same engine) had a “pancake” shroud to get everything under the floor of the car, like a Type 3 but a 2-litre engine.

Only the 1976 912E had the Type 4. The first Type 4 was brought to market in 1968 when buses became "bay windows". 914s had Type 4s, early 912s did not.

The early 912 had a derivative of the 356C engine.

Gordon Nichols posted:

Am I missing something here?  I was always under the impression  that a 912 and 914 engine were BOTH “Type 4” engines.  The 912 had a stand-up fan shroud (like we’re accustomed to) while the 412 boxy station wagon car (with the same engine) had a “pancake” shroud to get everything under the floor of the car, like a Type 3 but a 2-litre engine.

The 912 was built from 1965 to 1969, and then a one year revival, 1976.  The '65 to '69s had a 1.6 356 engine.  The Type 4 was not produced until 1968 and started as 1679ccs.  The 1976 912 brought back not only the 912 for one year, but also the Type 4 engine which had stopped being produced in Germany in 1974.

And more importantly for Bairedge, the transaxles in a 912 and Type 4 are different. A stock early 912 non-Type 4 engine puts out more horsepower, 102, than a stock Type 4, but it isn't hard to modify a Type 4 to put out greater than 102 horsepower.

IIRC, the 912 had a doghouse fan shroud, except for the 1976.  The photo of the 912 engine that Bairedge is using is an early 912, non-Type 4, which has a doghouse fan shroud.  If I needed an adapter for a 912 engine to a 914 5 speed transaxle, I would contact Kennedy Engineering in Palmdale as a last resort, only because I would sell the 912 engine to someone who has to pay for originality and then build/buy a hot Type 4.

Bay window buses did not get a type 4 engine until 1972.  1968-1970 used single port 1600 engines, then changed to dual port 1600 for 1971.  Buses did get the new bus IRS transmission in 1968, which are much stronger than a type 1 transmission.

The type 4 did arrive in 1968 in the model 411 though.

LI-Rick posted:

Bay window buses did not get a type 4 engine until 1972.  1968-1970 used single port 1600 engines, then changed to dual port 1600 for 1971.  Buses did get the new bus IRS transmission in 1968, which are much stronger than a type 1 transmission.

 

The type 4 did arrive in 1968 in the model 411 though.

You're right, of course. My bad.

Asking for info on this site is like drinking from a firehose.

This'll give me something to look at/talk about at the VW shows this Summer.

Thanks, Guys!  gn

Early type1 had a 180mm flywheel, later had a 200.

I may be wrong, but I think the type 4 has a 228mm flywheel(to fit the 901 or 915), necessitating a bigger bellhousing. But then again, I've seen lots of type 4 into type 1 transmissions. So I'm pretty sure they bolt up, just make sure you get the right flywheel, clutch, and throwout bearing.

To bolt a 914 T4 to a T1 trans you do need the smaller T4 bus flywheel (or a custom/machined one).  I believe the 914 is a forged 215 mm flywheel and the T4 bus is a 200 mm crappy cast one. There is something weird about the 914 flywheel teeth mating to a T1 starter too.  Plus you have to press in a T1 bearing in the T4 flywheel.

WOLFGANG posted:

To bolt a 914 T4 to a T1 trans you do need the smaller T4 bus flywheel (or a custom/machined one).  I believe the 914 is a forged 215 mm flywheel and the T4 bus is a 200 mm crappy cast one. There is something weird about the 914 flywheel teeth mating to a T1 starter too.  Plus you have to press in a T1 bearing in the T4 flywheel.

good day Wolfgang,what im trying to say here is that My plan was to mate the T4 transmission came from 914 engine,to my 912 engine ,if they are ok to be paired and easy to do the job,thank you for your advice,input

bairedge