57 Speedster on Bat - What's the final price gonna be?

I’m gonna go with RNM. The BaT weenies are gonna freak over the color change.

They'll bid it up to about 340.

@dlearl476 I agree.  Because of color and purists, I'm gonna go 339k and that's only to undercut @edsnova in the old Price is Right style.
-=theron

When these things brought a price I was ALMOST willing to pay, I followed their value reasonably closely. At this point, I really don't care. It's not even a hobby of mine to watch.

People giving $500K for old 4-cylinder pushrod air-cooled cars is speculation and WAY out of sync with any actual value equation. If you like the shape (and I very much do), then just buy a replica and get the shape and lots of other gooey goodness.

In my strong and unsolicited opinion, Speedsters were just not that important in the automotive pantheon. 550 Spyders maybe, 911s for sure, but Speedsters no.

Remember Rich MacKoul's original '55 Speedster?

Rich is now in a Cognitive Support Center with quickly advancing Alzheimer's, so his family sold his Speedster to an enthusiast in New Jersey for $340K.  It probably needs to be freshened up, but it is a complete, running, numbers-matching car (it went with a lot of spare parts and even has a set of custom luggage ).  I heard that the new owner was very happy to get it and the cash helps keep Rich comfortable in his support.

@Stan Galat posted:

In my strong and unsolicited opinion, Speedsters were just not that important in the automotive pantheon. 550 Spyders maybe, 911s for sure, but Speedsters no.

That is a bold statement.

Gordon:

Just dug out your chili recipes!

Going to make one today.

@edsnova posted:

That is a bold statement.

The truth sometimes hurts. It’s still the truth.

In the automotive pantheon maybe, but in the performance and Porsche pantheon not so much. Speedsters were, if not the first, one of the first, “Racers for the road,” to borrow Bultaco’s Metralla ad copy catch phrase.

4 guys that really want it- this may take a while...

@Panhandle Bob posted:

Gordon:

Just dug out your chili recipes!

Going to make one today.

That means that "Fall" has made it to the Florida Panhandle!!   😉

Make the one that uses Irish Whisky!

Gordon:

I made the other one because I'm pressed for time, but I will go ahead and drink the whiskey in the other recipe, straight.

Thanks again for posting those recipes. They are our "go-to's" whenever we want chili!

$198k plus the premium.

I'll take two SE's and two VM's, please!

@Panhandle Bob posted:

$198k plus the premium.

I'll take two SE's and two VM's, please!

That, my friends, is what a $150K paint job looks like.

All those “sales” on the $0-$2500 line are for oddball items like luggage, go-karts, and parts  

For $198K, you could get the complete Porsche collection, a GTS, a Spyder, and a Speedster.

@edsnova posted:

That is a bold statement.

Stan: What are your top 5 cars in the "Automotive Pantheon"?

Good question, Bob.  Inquiring minds want to know.

I usually agree with most of what Stan says, but in this case (re: 356 importance) I either disagree completely or I don't understand properly what "pantheon" means... ;-)  

Nonetheless, I was figuring 200-250k this one, and it got close...  I think it did so because it COULD be driven and enjoyed at a "reasonable" price compared to what is in the market, BUT it would take the purchase price (or more), and a few years,  to make it a concours car back to Kardex colors.  This would be required to make it the "collector" that so many original Speedster owners are seeking as their investment piece.

Just my $0.02

Sporty car pantheon imho:

big bore: Ferrari 340, Jaguar xk 120; 120 C, Mercedes 300; D type; Allard

small bore: MG T; OSCA MT4; Porsche 356; 550

each division further subdivided into “accessible” and “unobtainium.”

Middle class fans of the big cars could conceivably buy a 120. Four cylinder stalwarts could afford an MG or maybe even a 356.

@Panhandle Bob posted:

Stan: What are your top 5 cars in the "Automotive Pantheon"?

I've been pondering that question since I posted it, and the more I consider it, the dumber it is.

There are plenty of lists based on various criteria, and, without those qualifiers it seems to my feeble mind that it is impossible to come up with an answer.

It bodes a bunch of questions.

Does the first "horseless carriage" deserve a spot, in spite of it's crude construction?

Considering how automobiles have been used in various parts of the world, how does that play? Someone in Africa may have an entirely different take then a New Yorker, a Parisian or a Vietnamese rice farmer.

It's problematic.

That's why nobody, particularly automotive magazine writers, can agree.

Perhaps individual lists specifically focused on design/aesthetics or utility or  propulsion systems, impact in racing etc. can bail us out.

I should have kept my fingers off the keyboard to start with.

@Stan Galat posted:

In my strong and unsolicited opinion, Speedsters were just not that important in the automotive pantheon. 550 Spyders maybe, 911s for sure, but Speedsters no.

@Panhandle Bob posted:

Stan: What are your top 5 cars in the "Automotive Pantheon"?

The operative word is "important". Important cars changed the world. In the cotext of what I'm trying to say, important cars are not the same thing as the most beautiful cars, or the most valuable sports cars. They're the cars that bent the world in a different direction than it was going. Here are 20 I think are more "important" than the 356 (there are more):

1. 1908 Ford Model T (mass production miracle)
2. 1921 Miller (Offenhauser) Indy Car (winningest race engines of all time)
3. 1921 Duesenberg Model A (first mass produced hydraulic brakes)
4. 1938 VW Type 1 (Power to 21.5 million people. Fundamentally unchanged from 1938 until 2003)
5. 1940 Oldsmobile (first mass produced automatic transmission)
6. 1941 Willys Jeep (the formula is still going strong)
7. 1955 Chevrolet Bel Air (the first SBC, and the world changed forever)
8. 1955 Citroën DS (first mass produced disc brakes, etc.)
9. 1957 Lotus Elite (1100 lb road car. 1100 lbs!)
10. 1963 (Split Window) Chevrolet Corvette Stingray (crazy styling 20 years ahead of its time, 327 Fuel Injection)
11. 1964 Porsche 901 (attainable German excellence, the high-tech watermark of the air-cooled platform)
12. 1967 GM 1967 Eldorado/Toronado/Rivierea (first mass-produced FWD)
13. 1968 VW Type 3 D-Jetronic EFI (first mass produced EFI that was not abandoned)
14. 1980 Alfa Romeo Spider 2000 (first mass produced VVT)
15. 1987 Porsche 959 (An engineering miracle, for sale to anybody with a big checkbook. Variable front-to-rear all-wheel-drive system, water-cooled heads, sequential turbocharging, and a computer-controlled damping system. Aluminum, Kevlar, and Nomex shell. The final expression and leafy twig at the absolute end of the air-cooled branch of the automotive tree)
16. 1987 Ferrari F40 (first 200 mph road car)
17. 1996 GM EV1 (first mass produced electric car for the road)
18. 1997 Toyota Prius (first mass produced hybrid)
19. 2005 Porsche Carrera GT (last truly analog supercar)
20. 2015 McLaren P1 GTR (roadgoing hybrid 1000 metric HP supercar)

The 356 was really just a hot-rodded VW beetle in the main -- nothing revolutionary, very evolutionary. As a hot-rodder, I like that a lot, the idea of taking something very pedestrian and making it into something very capable appeals to me on a fundamental level. That, and the very attractive shape is what makes this a forever car for me.

I just understand that nothing really ever came of it. It broke no new ground and it dominated nothing -- racing, sales, etc. It was the proto-Porsche, but the 911 was far, far more important to the company.

As much as I love it (and the marketplace values it) -- the 356 Speedster is a footnote in the automotive firmament, when that firmament is taken in its entirety.

FWIW, I knew it was a provocative statement that would draw a lot of contrary opinions... and I love that about this site. I appreciate everybody's perspective.

Without the input of people here, I'd have never really appreciated the Jaguar C-type for what it was. I think that car was more "important" as well.

I'd still rather have what I've got.

Upon further consideration: the '63 split-window 'vette can't make the cut. I don't think styling really changes the world. Fuel injection maybe, but it wasn't the first (although it popularized it).

Ditto the Carrera GT. It was the last of something (which makes it importantish), but it wasn't the first of anything, and it didn't bend the world. It was the Dodge Demon 170 of Germany. I love all 3 of these cars, BTW.

I let my personal bias sway 10% of the list.

What about the 64 Mustang that started the pony car rage?

Not my jam, but the '64-1/2 'stang certainly changed the world more than the 356 Speedster (also more than the '63 'vette, more than the Carrera GT, and more than a Demon 170).

The thing is, all of those cars are solid 9-pluses... whereas the original pony-car was a shaky 4, but there you have it.

The Austin Mini was a game changer and it set the mechanical layout for every econo-hatch and hot-hatch that came after. They were also a ball to drive. I learned to drive on one.

While the speedster didn't move the needle for the whole automotive world it was important in Porsche's pantheon. Listening to Max Hoffmann and finding out that the America market could drive their success was a pretty significant discovery for them.

Good point, Michael. In my haste to put together a list (which I knew would be incomplete), I overlooked the Issigonis Mini. It definitely belongs in any list of "important' cars.

@JMM (Michael) posted:

The Austin Mini was a game changer and it set the mechanical layout for every econo-hatch and hot-hatch that came after. They were also a ball to drive. I learned to drive on one.

While the speedster didn't move the needle for the whole automotive world it was important in Porsche's pantheon. Listening to Max Hoffmann and finding out that the America market could drive their success was a pretty significant discovery for them.

My first car was it’s younger brother, the Austin America. I’d love to find a nice running one.