Two Black Speedsters Today

Isn’t Beverly Hills Car Club that scam site?

think so, its not in BH and they have the same inventory forever..

$68.5  plus buyers fee , shipping and tax..... ugh ~

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Beverly Hills Car Club seems to have an actual physical 'showroom' of some sort in LA.

But the showroom is in East LA, which is - how shall we say this - somewhat removed from Beverly Hills.

Meanwhile, it's Beverly Hills Motor Cars (of San Diego) that has gained notoriety here and elsewhere for its impressive, if imaginary, inventory.

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Gotcha.

@dlearl476 posted:

Isn’t Beverly Hills Car Club that scam site?

No. Beverly Hills Car Club is owned by Alex Manos and the guy has a HUGE inventory of nothing but vintage cars.

You're thinking of Beverly Hills Motorcars.

This is as confusing as “Vintage Speedsters” or “Vintage Motorcars”.

Peter Venuti lives in Beverly, MA and I’m sure there are hills over there.   Maybe he can start another “Beverly Hills” company just to mess with our heads.  

@Gordon Nichols Wouldn't the hills make it North Beverly?

I can't afford 270K, but I can afford 70K :-)

Sorry but these prices are insane... the VM speedster should be 35-40K TOPS... I would pay that much if it had less than 500 miles...

@CBAERGA- have you been to the VM website lately? Base price with no options is 44k.

@CBAERGA posted:

Sorry but these prices are insane... the VM speedster should be 35-40K TOPS... I would pay that much if it had less than 500 miles...

Maybe. The market is up and dictating the higher prices. It may drop some, but I don't imagine much. I think these higher prices are here to stay.

The new Road and Track arrived in my mailbox (I'm old skool, see). They're only publishing 6 or 8 times/yr now, but the issues are big and "thematic" now.

This month's theme is "analog", and the premise is that analog is the new luxury. It's an interesting premise, and one born out with the price of old cars

... so the next time your pride and joy bites your hand and leaves you hoofing it to the nearest town, take consolation in the fact that in the modern age, all of this is all a luxury that people are beginning to pay long money for. Watches that won't keep reliable time, classic homes that leak water and have mechanicals that work "sometimes", and cars that don't reliably start/idle/run/stop - all luxurious to modern man.

My dad would just roll his eyes if he could see it now.

I agree - everything digital has an expiration date, everything analog is timeless

I have thought about getting a licence plate for my IM6 that reads 'analog' (American spelling) or 'analogue' (Canadian spelling), but I could only imagine the comments from perverted, uneducated individuals. 

@Stan Galat posted:

The new Road and Track arrived in my mailbox (I'm old skool, see). They're only publishing 6 or 8 times/yr now, but the issues are big and "thematic" now.

This month's theme is "analog", and the premise is that analog is the new luxury. It's an interesting premise, and one born out with the price of old cars

... so the next time your pride and joy bites your hand and leaves you hoofing it to the nearest town, take consolation in the fact that in the modern age, all of this is all a luxury that people are beginning to pay long money for. Watches that won't keep reliable time, classic homes that leak water and have mechanicals that work "sometimes", and cars that don't reliably start/idle/run/stop - all luxurious to modern man.

My dad would just roll his eyes if he could see it now.

All true but give me cellphone so I can call AAA.

These prices may hang on for a while,  but I would never buy a VW based replica for over 70K.

You can buy a 315HP Flat 6 Boxster with Bitchen soundtrack for 53K (same color combo).  And still have money leftover for a nice used Miata.  I'm just saying.

https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/...16#listing=306994337

Very true Marty, the used market has lost it's compass bearing and since more people are looking it is analogue-ous to a price hike, (I liked that one Bob )  

Actually, I have been in contact with IM, up here, and they are back in full IC production with a reasonable wait period !  Having said this there might be a deluge of orders shortly. @Marty Grzynkowicz IM-6

Now is your time to order an IM-6 and it is Canuckian dollars at a 20% saving or more for the July 4th celebration, Happy July 4th to all of you south of the 49th and to all my long lost Cajun cousins.

Used 356 prices have officially gone wacky ..... that is all

Especially Speedsters. When Jack sold Dean Jeffries car at Amelia Island a couple of years ago, there were 5-6 Speedsters that sold right around $500K. Granted, that’s Amelia Island.

I’m still gobsmacked that Ed only got $50K for his Karman Coupe. I know they’re considered the red-headed step child, and Ed’s had a 912 engine and trans, but still.

FWIW, Karman Coupes are my favorite hardtop 356. There’s something so 50’s-60’s German design ethic in them that really pushes my buttons. I think they’re the progenitor of the VW Type III

@WNGD posted:

Used 356 prices have officially gone wacky ..... that is all

And it’s not just 356’s. 914’s and any air cooled 911 prices are off the scale, too. I sold my 78 SC for $17.5 in 2014. I could probably get $50K for it now.

I have a completely rebuilt, zero mile 1957 356 speedster engine. I bought it years ago with the plan of eventually putting it in a car down the road.  I never found a car to put it in, since the prices went crazy. The engines value has also climbed up into the clouds over the years, maybe I’ll let it go if the price is right.

@LeadPedal posted:

I have a completely rebuilt, zero mile 1957 356 speedster engine. I bought it years ago with the plan of eventually putting it in a car down the road.  I never found a car to put it in, since the prices went crazy. The engines value has also climbed up into the clouds over the years, maybe I’ll let it go if the price is right.

Sweet. What spec is it?

It’s an early 1957 pre A engine that originally had a roller bearing crank in it, but was replaced with one piece replacement crank during the rebuild.  It has dual single throat Zenith carbs and early shroud and linkage. Basically it looks exactly like this engine when assembled in a car.

https://www.speedsterowners.co...5#673489564560309575

My buddy just bought a non working 67 911 for 35K. It looks like a straight body, but it will be a long project.

@LeadPedal posted:

It’s an early 1957 pre A engine that originally had a roller bearing crank in it, but was replaced with one piece replacement crank during the rebuild.  It has dual single throat Zenith carbs and early shroud and linkage. Basically it looks exactly like this engine when assembled in a car.

In model year 1956, the 356 was replaced by the comprehensively enhanced 356 A. As from its market launch, this type was available with five four-cylinder engines:

- 356 A 1300 with 44 hp
- 356 A 1300 Super with 60 hp
- 356 1600 with 60 hp
- 356 A 1600 Super with 75 hp
- 356 A 1500 GS Carrera with 100 hp

https://www.porsche.com/usa/ac...ic/models/356/356-a/

I never heard of a pushrod motor with a roller crank from the Porsche factory. I was under the impression that only 4-cam Carrera engines could be had with rollers.

Educate me, please.

@DannyP posted:

I never heard of a pushrod motor with a roller crank from the Porsche factory. I was under the impression that only 4-cam Carrera engines could be had with rollers.

Educate me, please.

News to me also. But I’m still confused by a “57 Pre-A.”  Unless this was an earlier roller bearing crank motor that found its way into a 57 car.

“There is an excellent discussion of the history of the Hirth crankshaft in

@DannyP posted:

I never heard of a pushrod motor with a roller crank from the Porsche factory. I was under the impression that only 4-cam Carrera engines could be had with rollers.

Educate me, please.

This is all news to me as well- I know SPG made roller cranks for 356 as well as VW engines but I'd never heard of a factory pushrod engine roller crank equipped.  I  don't know a lot about the really early 25 and 36hp VW cased engines so I'm not surprised I hadn't heard of this, but roller bearing cranks in Super engines to '57- I've seen a number of pushrod engines apart and that one's a real surprise.

@ALB posted:

This is all news to me as well- I know SPG made roller cranks for 356 as well as VW engines but I'd never heard of a factory pushrod engine roller crank equipped.  I  don't know a lot about the really early 25 and 36hp VW cased engines so I'm not surprised I hadn't heard of this, but roller bearing cranks in Super engines to '57- I've seen a number of pushrod engines apart and that one's a real surprise.

Same here. If it hadn’t come from Ludvigsen I’d be skeptical.

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I remember reading something about this years ago in R&T.

They were speculating about why so many 356 drivers buzzed around at slow speeds on surface streets in lower gears at higher rpm's. They suggested that the practice was no longer necessary, but a carryover from earlier days when 356's (with pushrod engines) had roller bearing cranks that were easily damaged if lugged at low rpm's.

Just found this long response in a forum on the 356 Registry site by someone who seems to know whereof he speaks:

pzwinakis@act.com wrote:

Roller cranks made by Hirth were used on the early 356 engines. They
were last used in the Super through the '57 model year. They were last
used in Normals in the '54 models.

Also, they were used in BMW motorcycles through the '69 models, as well
as other sophisticated engines, mostly racing.

I have never heard a definitive opinion of why they were used. Perhaps
the drag was a little less, but the engines didn't seem to lose power
when the conversion was made to plain-bearing cranks. One of their
benefits is that they could survive on just a mist of oil - they did not
need a constant supply of oil under pressure to the rods. Perhaps,
also, insert bearings were not able to take the heat of air-cooled
engines in the "early days." Whatever the reason for their use, they
were very complicated, expensive and repairable only by the most
sophisticated and specialized means. Repair in the field was rare; most
had to be rebuilt at the factory.

There were two major problems which shortened the lives of the roller
cranks in Porsche 356 applications:

1. If the oil used was too thick, when cold the rollers would "skid"
rather than roll, wearing flats on themselves and damaging the rotating
races. Bugatti racing engines, along with some others, required a heavy
viscosity castor oil. Castor oil, an excellent lubricant, was nasty
stuff when it cooled, so it was drained from a racing engine while still
hot. Then before the engine was started cold, the oil was heated! That
prevented the roller skidding until the engine itself warmed up.

2. Roller bearing cranks do not take kindly to lugging. That is,
booting the engine heavily at lower revs. The loading thus created
would wear out a RB crank in a Porsche engine in perhaps 10,000 miles.

There is a prevalent belief that engines with RB cranks should not be
allowed to idle below some relatively high speed - perhaps 1,500 rpm or
something - because they will not be adequately oiled if the oil
pressure goes low as it does at idling. That notion is mistaken. In
fact, as stated above, the RB crank requires very little oil - only a
mist to survive. Perhaps that belief also relates somehow to the harm
done by lugging a RB crank. In fact, they may idle as leisurely as a
plain bearing crank. Just don't load them heavily at low revs.

It was a huge mistake for Porsche to sell 356s with RB cranks in the
U.S. In Europe, drivers understood that Porsche engines, particularly
the Supers, were meant to be driven hard with their revs up. In the
U.S., beginning with '55 when Porsche sales began to make a mark, most
drivers had not the slightest idea of how to properly drive a 356 with a
RB crank. Or how to properly drive a 356 at all.

Many Supers were purchased because they were only about $500 higher than the Normals, and offered 15 DIN hp more - close to 20 SAE hp. Then they would go out and drive them as they would a big U.S. engine, using them under 3,000 rpm
or so most of the time. The cranks would begin rattling in 10k miles or
so, and cost around $1,000 to replace. That soured a lot of early
customers on Porsche per se.

There are very few 356s which originally had roller cranks, still
running with roller cranks. Most have been replaced, many years ago,
with plain bearing cranks. Except for the 4-cam Spyder engines and the
Carreras until they went plain bearing some time in the early '60s.

However, I have heard of some installing a RB crank in engines like a
S90, perhaps as an experiment to see if even more power can be found.
Believe me, you don't want one unless you are running a Spyder or an
early Carrera.

Pat Tobin
Just rolling along, cranky as ever

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I remember reading/hearing that myself. So it piqued my interest.
Super 90 tach

356 A/B Normal tach

And the Spyder tach went to 8k, assuming the 356 Carrera 4-cam did as well.

This is the highest resolution pic I could find. Looks like it. Shaded from 4K to 7500 redline.

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Here's a frame grab from that video of the Carrera drive I posted a few weeks ago:

The tach goes to 8K, but the red starts around 6200 and goes to 7500.

In this car, the green sector is the range that's covered by your trust fund.

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Back in the day, racers flogging those 4-cams would shim the valve springs for more tension and less valve float. Then they'd go well into the red(and maybe above!), trust fund be damned!

Here is what a 356 roller crank looks like. Pre A is a term used for pre A parts as well as early 356 A engines that utilize Pre A designed fan shrouds, carb linkage and other  parts.

@Lead Pedal said- "Here is what a 356 roller crank looks like...

I haven't seen one in a long time, but at first glance very similar to an SPG.  I'm sure there are some differences...

@LeadPedal Thanks for the picture. So the rod bearings are roller bearings, but the crank bearings are plain bearings?

I guess this makes it easy to swap. Like was mentioned above, as long as rod caps use studs with nuts on the rod end, clearance isn't an issue for increased stroke.