77 Puma GTE Project.

More info on what you're having done!

@WNGD posted:

More info on what you're having done!

Yeah- what are you going to change?

@ALB posted:

Yeah- what are you going to change?

"More".

I recently purchased the Puma From and gentleman in NJ. He hadn't had the car long himself, less than a year. The engine specs given : 2110 with CB 044 ultramag 44/37.5 heads 8.5:1 CR. Berg 297B cam. 48 IDA Webers port matched intakes. described to run healthy with no issues. I intended to fly up from Indiana to NJ to inspect the car. That wasn't feasible with the virus going on. The guy selling the car is a bona fide car nut like many of us and I took the chance to buy the car without inspecting it. after receiving the car my initial drives revealed an engine that didn't feel like it had 40 HP when it should be putting out in the 140-150 range. I pulled the plugs and checked the compression. 12 &4 had 80-90 PSI and 3 had 60 PSI which is not good at all. I squirted some motor oil into 3 and checked compression again and no rise so I suspect a valve issue. I relayed the info back to the seller who thought the engine was tip top, he refunded me $1000.00 to compensate which was very fair and ethical. Thanks Dennis your a straight shooter. 

 I pulled the engine Friday afternoon and am going to take it to my Engine builder as as stated. I will have him rebuild the engine and get rid of the stage 3 pressure plate for a stage 1. I will have the engine full flowed and possibly have the case cut to handle 94 P&C's to bring the engine out to 2276. I will have the CR set to something higher than 8'5:1. I have a feeling it may have bee mistakenly set up to something lower than 8.5. I did pull the carbs and manifolds to check out the heads and the ports. They are indeed CB 044 ultra mag cnc oval port heads so that is a good sign that the engine is built with some nice parts. 

 What gets me is, someone built this engine to breath big and installed  1.375" dia headers with a patched together restrictive muffler that is choking the engine off. I have ordered an A1 exhaust system to go on the engine after the rebuild. It should be a 150-160  hp engine easy when finished. Once back from the builder I will run this engine the rest of the year. I have a plan to have Cary convert the car to Subaru power this winter and place the now sorted out type 1 screamer up for sale.

Not sure for other changes yet. I need to go thru everything. I am not sure why the real has coil overs and it still isn't stiff. I would think the torsion bars would be enough. The trans is 4.12 R&P and heavily strengthened with HD side plate and gusseted. This with the stage 3 pressure plate makes me think someone was setting it up for drag racing. If I go Suby the trans will be upgraded to a Rancho pro Suby  build. 

Hi @Jimmy V.- Interesting engine combo- heads and carbs that should make power to 6500 or higher, coupled with an exhaust that won't go much past 4500 rpm.  Berg doesn't list a 297B cam (at least I can't find it in any of the print catalogues, price lists or their website), but they do list a GB 297E, which is listed as a Genuine Engle W110. The GB 297 is the same specs (W110) ground on a slightly smaller base circle to clear the Berg crankshaft counterweights. Even the cam isn't particularly well matched to the heads/carbs- but I think you know all this, so bear with me.   

Yeah, at the very least it will need more compression, more duration/valve lift and a bigger exhaust to make the most of the displacement.  Bigger pistons and cylinders are always a plus as well. Do you have a cam/rocker combo in mind? What size primaries for the A1?  This header chart is a good guide to match tubing size to rpm peak and displacement. Again, I think you have a grip on this but someone else may find it useful-                                                                                                                                    

This has the potential for more than 150 or 160 hp...

As you said, the stage 3 pressure plate and gusseted case do suggest drag racing aspirations. Did the former owner say anything about it having close 3rd and 4th gears?  That would make sense if he was goin' racin'... Al                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

Nice Looking Ride!! Jimmy

Thanks Arden,

 Ok I just spent the afternoon with the engine builder. After I left I kicked myself for not taking pictures. He had a super nice 356 engine he just finished on the engine stand and a cool Manx Dune buggy on the rack. I also saw a few 911 engines and some hot type 1 engines in different stages of completion.  After looking at my engine he recommended getting rid of the 48 IDA's and building the engine to run 44 or 48 IDF carbs. He said the IDA carbs are designed for racing and don't have much if any mid range transition circuits. They are made to be all the way open or all the way closed. I listed my set of 48 IDA's on Samba with manifolds and air cleaners for $700.00. The carbs came off the running engine and appear to be in good working order. I am going with 48 IDF's. He thinks like me and recommended going with a set of thick walled 94 P&C's to bring the engine disp. from 2100 to 2276. He is going to full flow the case, and in short build a 180HP dependable screamer. Downside is he is backed up and said it may be 6-8 weeks before the engine is finished. That's fine. I will clean up the engine compartment and get the shifter lined out. It shifts but feels mushy if you know what I mean. I like the tight crisp shifts of the vintage Speed shifters. More to come as time goes by.

The 48 IDA carbs sold in less than an hour. I have the funds in my Paypal account and the carbs will ship out tomorrow. 

Next time your in Ohio hit me up.maybe we can do lunch or have a beer or two

Jimmy are you going to do the oil passage drilling hoover mod on that engine?

Sounds like a good plan Jimmy.

@Jimmy V. posted:

He thinks like me and recommended going with a set of thick walled 94 P&C's to bring the engine disp. from 2100 to 2276. 

Thick wall 94s take a ton of work, and are the cat's meow. Well done, sir-- well done!

Jimmy,

The Hoover modification has been discussed previously and increases the amount of oil or puts oil where it wasn’t before to further improve lubrications. @ALB knows more than anyone but here’s a link to a previous discussion. 

https://www.speedsterowners.co...ling-and-lubrication

Looks amazing, Jimmy. It should be a blast when you get it on the road. Regarding Hoover Mods, there's a relatively new article in the knowledge base with lots of pictures. Hoover and Cooling Mods

Whatever you do to this car, we're going to need lots of pictures. This being such a cool and unique car, we want to see everything.

Whenever my engine sheats the bed, the new one or rebuild will include those hoover mods.

@Robert M posted:

Jimmy,

The Hoover modification has been discussed previously and increases the amount of oil or puts oil where it wasn’t before to further improve lubrications. @ALB knows more than anyone but here’s a link to a previous discussion. 

https://www.speedsterowners.co...ling-and-lubrication

If you remember he is into drilling holes

I have not heard of this modification. To do something like this I would need to have access to research and tests showing that this actually worked and didnt cause oiling issues in other critical areas. My guy would be doing it if it was worth the effort, I will ask him if he has heard of this. Does Pat Downs offer and recommend the modification? Sometimes it is just as simple as Don't fix it if it ain't broken. Steer me to the results of how this has improved others engines. I am open minded.

If you read up on this change if I remember right it was done by a pilot who was building airplanes and realized that oil starvation could occur remember these engines were made and had 36 hp initially
also in the type 4 Engine this modification is done at the factory or maybe I should say this is standard procedure on that engine 

@Jimmy V. posted:

I have not heard of this modification. To do something like this I would need to have access to research and tests showing that this actually worked and didnt cause oiling issues in other critical areas. My guy would be doing it if it was worth the effort, I will ask him if he has heard of this. Does Pat Downs offer and recommend the modification? Sometimes it is just as simple as Don't fix it if it ain't broken. Steer me to the results of how this has improved others engines. I am open minded.

READ THIS

THEN READ THIS

I will tell you right now, Jimmy, that some engine builders won't open their eyes enough to consider these modifications, as the engine does run without them, most people don't realize their value and it costs even more money to do in an already competitive market. The typical response- "we've been building engines for 30 years and don't see the point" (Competition Engineering of Arizona when a member asked them about Bob Hoover's mods in 2017?). They'd written the idea off before experimenting or even seriously looking at the concept; the fact that people who have actually incorporated the mods in a build see the benefits AND VW took the time to incorporate these ideas in their type 4 engines means nothing to them.

Gotta go make dinner.  Al

@ALB,

It's not that "some" builders don't want to do it-- it's 99% of engine builders who don't want to do it.

The reasoning goes: nobody is going to drive their car 100,000 mi, so why do something with a chance of ruining a $1200 case when it won't make any difference until 15 year from now.

I found a machinist who agrees with the idea. He's in an extreme minority.

I still have a feeling there is more to the other side of this story. It sounds way over my ability to do the mod myself and appears to have many opportunities for even a pro to make a little mistake that would and could cause more trouble than the intended benefit. Your mileage may vary.

Put it this way: If I'm going to split the case, I'll do the Hoover mods. I haven't split my case yet. They aren't that hard though, Mike Pickett did his all by himself, and quite successfully I might add.

The mods were track tested in the '60s by just about all the road-racer guys running VW engines (think Formula V but I think several other classes as well). It doesn't do much for hillclimb and drag race cars, which these days is most of the racing market. And as Stan says, most of the non-racing hobbyists don't put near enough miles on their engines to make it work as an engine builder's insurance measure.

But it's clearly a best practice.  

Update to the Puma Project. The 2110 engine is out being rebuilt and enlarged to 2276 with a set of thick walled 94mm Mahle forged P&C's with total seal rings. The builder Bill Westerfeld found the engine to have 3 of the cam lobes worn badly and hardly opening the affected valves. I assume this may have happened from not running oil with ZDDP added not sure but I have seen my fare share of flattened cams. He has all the parts ordered and in his shop and he started work on the engine last week. He ordered most if not all the parts from CB Performance. New CB 44 Webers, Engle 120 cam. full flowing the block, valve job on the CB 044 Ultra mag heads. Balance all moving parts. The 82mm counter weighted crank and Porsche 356 rods will be re-used. The crank has been dynamically balanced with the flywheel. The Compression Ratio is being set at 9.5. The engine is scheduled to be finished this week. Bill will break the cam in and adjust the carbs. The A-1 1 5/8" merged sidewinder exhaust has arrived at his shop as well. 

 While the engine has been out I have been doing some work on the car. The accelerator pedal (roller ball) was almost impossible to get my foot on because of there being no room between the chassis center hump and the brake pedal, I have wide feet as well. I hated the red plastic roller ball accelerator pedal as well. I wound up removing the pedal cluster which was easy enough to get out. I have a nice aluminum accelerator pedal that is designed to work with the roller ball that was taken off my Speedster during the Subaru conversion. The conversion utilizes the Impreza drive by wire pedal. I installed the pedal and did some reshaping of the brake pedal and the clutch pedal to make more room for my foot to access the gas pedal. I then spent 4 hours trying to install the pedal cluster back in the car. I was learning the hard way that you can't let the clutch pedal fall forward while you are trying to get the cluster in it's hole because the clutch cable will fall off the hook and you will need to start all over. I did have a new clutch cable and accelerator cable which I installed since I was already in there. The pedal cluster is a bitch to get back in if you haven't done it before. I couldn't get the front bolt to start in the threaded hole in the side of the hump. I gave up around midnight Saturday and after some rest got the thing back in Sunday morning and am very happy with the results. I will post some pictures later today. I will remove and replace the firewall material in the engine bay this week. Once I have the engine back I will install it and run it in the Puma to break it in and have some fun. The engine should scream.

  The 2056 Type IV engine I bought form Chris Sutton should arrive tomorrow. I plan on having it rebuild as well and I will swap it into the Puma to see How it feels. I may keep one of the engines if I like it and sell the other, it not I will sell them both and have Carey convert the Puma to Suby power.  More to come soon.

Looking good!

I've got a question, @Jimmy V. You refer to "Mahle thick-wall 94s" in your post above and a couple other times.

I've been looking all over, and I can't find any information on Mahle thick-wall 94 cylinders. AA makes a thick-wall 94, which requires a BUNCH of machining to even be usable (no stud holes, long cylinders, etc.) and JPM (Johannes Persson Motorsports) in Sweden makes what are probably the premier 94s, which are made with the best iron available, and the thickest walls possible. For a long time, the Mahle cylinders have been the way to go with 94s, but they're thinner than Mahle 91.5s, and way thinner than AA thick-wall 92s.

The AA thick-wall 94s don't really bring anything to the table once the stud reliefs are cut in, and the JPMs are halfway to LN Nickies in price and require a very good machinist to make them work.

The longblock Vintage Volks is building for me has AA thick-wall 92s, as (at the time) they were the thickest VW cylinders available in any size. If Mahle makes a thick-wall 94, I'd love to have some information on them, as I was just about to pull the trigger on the JPM 94s for Project X.

PS. The 2276 Type 1 that is being built has 1.25 ratio rockers running with the Engle 120 cam. The heads should breath great and the cam should let them really bring the power from 2000 RPM,s on. The engine builder said this isn't an engine you can lug (not that it's healthy to lug any Type 1 engine) along in 3rd or 4th gear at 1500rpm and mash the gas. He said if you do this the engine will fall flat on it's face. That is fine with me. I understand how to drive a type 1 and know how to keep the rpm's in the power band. The engine won't be for grandma to putt around in. I noticed a video of a Spyder build being driven recently posted that I was cringing a little as he was up shifting really fast and lugging the engine. It's not good to do that to these engines. Alas, they no not what they do sometimes. IMHO of course.

The Engle 120 with 1.25s is an excellent street cam. You'll be surprised how tractable it really is.

Thanks Stan, I appreciate the encouraging input.

I was gonna ask the same question as Stan about the Mahle 94s.....

Last summer I rebuilt the top end of my 2165(78 x 94) Raby type1. New Mahle forged pistons and cylinders went on(after pistons were balanced), and the heads were sent out for guides and valve job. 

I used "B" pistons, they are for any increased stroke up to 82mm(I think). They worked great for my 10.1:1 engine for about 35k, I ran them for another 5k miles with ever-increasing blow-by.

@Jimmy V. posted:

 I noticed a video of a Spyder build being driven recently posted that I was cringing a little as he was up shifting really fast and lugging the engine. It's not good to do that to these engines. Alas, they no not what they do sometimes. IMHO of course.

Guilty as charged, but with an explanation: I was trying to make the engine run hot on purpose to see if it would (apparently it won't), and see if it'll fall on its face at low RPM (no to that either). Also I don't like my brakes enough yet to go ripping around the neighborhood.

Stand by for the next video.

I checked in on my Engine Builder, building me a 2276 out of the 2110 engine I dropped off. He is currently working on the heads. The Heads are older CB 044  Ultra Mag CNC ported heads. He found that some time in the past a nut or small bolt or screw found it's way into the no. 3 cylinder. At the time they a PO pulled the head and smoothed the rough edges but missed a slightly bent intake valve and a crushed top land on the piston causing the ring to be locked up. This is the real reason behind the low compression on no. 3 cylinder. My guy ordered a new SS valve from CB and is reworking the bowls of each head to match CC them and get the proper compression ratio without using cylinder shims. This guy has been building air cooled engines since the 70's and really knows what works.  He is super detail oriented. Some of the pics show the head and old piston along with the heads being opened up to fit the 94mm cylinders. I am getting excited to run this engine in the Puma long enough to break it in and get it fine tuned, it will then be listed for sale. 

@Jimmy V. posted:

I still have a feeling there is more to the other side of this story. It sounds way over my ability to do the mod myself and appears to have many opportunities for even a pro to make a little mistake that would and could cause more trouble than the intended benefit. Your mileage may vary.

 A friend and  I have done it to a junk case with a 3/16" drill and it's not that hard- the important thing is to pay attention.   There is a thread in the Engines Transmissions Performance forum on the Samba named  "Bob Hoover Mods" (I don't know how to give you the link on this laptop I'm on) that further discusses the subject.  Alstrup's summary of the modifications' benefits on page 5 is worth the time to find it even if you read nothing else.  I'd copy them to here, but again I don't know how to do it on the laptop and my IT kid isn't out of bed yet.

I've said it before but here it is again- this machine work is just an update of the oiling system to make it work better, most of which VW incorporated into the Type 4 engine.  Every Type 1 engine on the street will benefit from these modifications.  There is no down side.  As has been said before, most engine builders won't do them because it adds cost to the build and the engine will run well enough without them, but when you have a higher revving engine than stock (where the mods do the most good), when you see how little effort they take (compared to a 5,000- $10,000 or more engine build) and you understand the benefits gained, why would you not do them?   Al

Bob Hoover Mods

Bob's Blog

@dlearl476 posted:

Bob Hoover Mods

Thank you for posting the link.

My IT guy is up so here is Alstrup's bit (found on page 5)-

Stock oil system (dual relief) is quite OK. Have moved people around for millions of miles, with the occasional rebuild.
Adding an oil filter typically increases bearing, and engine life, for 2 reasons. 1, cleaner oil. 2, more oil in the system which means less risk of starvation.

Hoover began to see some fatigue in engines with relatively high sustained load. As per the article linked to previously he/they began to experiment how this could be addressed to improve engine life with high sustained load. And THAT´s where we are here.
In drag racing you go the opposite way with wanting to make the oil come back to the sump as fast as possible. In regular street driving, especially in busses of which there are many today that still covers a lot of miles, you can improve parts and engine life by doing the Hoover mods. You can also make the engine handle higher loads because you create an evenness in cylinder head temperatures and temperatures in the engine in general. Yes, you may experience increased oil temps under load, but that is an easy fix with a thermostatically controlled oil external cooler. At the same time it is also PROOF that the mods work. How else would the oil suddenly absorb more heat (?)
Every single engine I build gets the internal oil mods. All high power and higher power bus engines I build gets the full Hoover mods, AND a thermostatic controlled external oil cooler
Apart from the cooling thing the rod mods also help to make sure that the cylinder walls are wet at all times, which helps in preventing scuffing in extreme situations.
The people that claims "not needed and not necessary" are correct as such, because the engine will run without it. Question is, how much better would it do (have done) with the mods. (?)
Ever wondered why the lifter bores on 1&3 intakes are often the most worn of the lot ?
Ever wondered why valve spring fatigue almost always begin on cylinder 1 ?
Ever wondered why cam & lifter failure hardly ever happens on an engine with Hoover mods?
Ever wondered why stock cylinder heads are less prone to crack on an engine with Hoover mods?
Ever wondered why "we" often go a full digit higher in CR than most recommends, and have no problems with doing it?
Sure it works. Its called evolution. Think of it this way. The type 1 case was developed in the late 50´s. Take a look around. We have learned a thing or two. We have been to the moon, set a rover on Mars and sent Voyager 1 & 2 to the outer limits of our solar system, developed cures for many lethal diseases, found out that our industrial revolution/evolution has not exactly been nice to our planet since then.

 J Edgar would be proud of you Al.    Well I think the discussion is done, Ho-over and out.

The freshly built 2276 lives! Here is a low quality short clip of the cam break in run. I pick the engine up Monday and I am dropping off the Raby Type 4 I bought from Chris Sutton on this site. I am thinking of having the type 4 enlarged to something over 2.5L . With cranks available to 88mm and the P&C's up to 105mm diameter Type 4 engines of over 3.0L can be built. HMM.. just a thought. Let's see what my engine builder says. 

 I have new plug wires and pulleys to install on this engine. I will have it in the Puma and driving soon. 

I picked up the freshly built 2110 now 2276 engine yesterday. I have new MST pulleys to and new plug wires to install, I will be sending the nasty looking pulleys out to be re-anodized and will use them on a future engine. I will get the engine installed into the Puma this weekend. 

My engine builder told me he was going to use an Engle 120 cam on the build. I was looking over the build sheet a few minutes ago and saw that he actually used an Engle FK43 cam instead. I called to ask about it because the FK 43 is built to be used with 1.4 ratio rockers and I thought I had 1.25 rockers. The builder told me that he found that I had 1.4 rockers and that is why he changed the cam choice. I am good with that because the FK 43 should be a great cam with the compression, displacement and heads I have. By the way the engine is built to 9.5:1 CR, which in my experience is very good. More to come on the performance once I get the engine installed into the Puma. Vroom, Vroom!