That’s a bunch. Beck. 1750cc type 4. Makes me feel better about what I’m paying for my IM.
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Wow.
And I've seen prices dropping quite a bit and lots of RNM
an auction is all about just 2 people that refuse to be denied....and who wants it more.....sometimes obviously at INSANE "deep pockets" levels
I know many perceive the 356 motor to be an "upgrade" to the VW T1 (or TIV) but in my experience they are generally less power and more expensive parts. However it seems like the simple fact it is a "Porsche motor" is very appealing to some. I think the tie to Wilhoit helped this one along a great deal. Set a new high mark too, which is always cool.
@chines1 posted:I know many perceive the 356 motor to be an "upgrade" to the VW T1 (or TIV) but in my experience they are generally less power and more expensive parts. However it seems like the simple fact it is a "Porsche motor" is very appealing to some. I think the tie to Wilhoit helped this one along a great deal. Set a new high mark too, which is always cool.
I don't exactly consider a 356 (or 912) engine an "upgrade" either, and it certainly isn't the best bang for your buck. A 2 liter-ish Type 1 putting out anywhere from 1½ times to twice as much power as a 356 pushrod 1500/1600 (with the VW all in by 6,000 rpm, so it's still relatively easy to take care of and has GREAT street manners, as opposed to a 7,000+ rpm 356 engine) is still a good bit cheaper, and with 30 to 40 (or more) hp than even a "period correct" 1500 cc 4cam engine (with the 4cam engine being significantly more than 10 times the cost of the modified Type 1) doesn't really make sense to most of us- or most of the people who worship our cars from afar, for that matter.
Now why people put 356/912 engines in their Speedsters or Spyders, along with as many original 356 parts as they can find (or afford)- that's a whole 'nother discussion entirely...
That price is kind insane for a Gen 1 car even if God built it. But if you have the money and want it bad enough who am I to say. 😆
its correct that some really want the bragging rights to say its has Porsche engine and trans. I had one just like this a bunch of years ago, and the buyer paid at the time top of the market from me to have the same.
After getting my vintage and putting in the 2387 I would never go back to a Porsche motor or 1600, or 1915 power. Love the power and dont need or want the extra cost of Porsche parts or the three seconds of satisfaction of saying it to others.
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One thing this listing had in common with some others that have drawn surprisingly high bids was a good driving video.
I'm amazed how many otherwise nicely prepped and presented cars neglect this when they're offered for sale to potential bidders who usually won't be able to inspect the car in person, let alone drive it.
This video checks most of the boxes. It's done on nice roads that have little other traffic. He drives aggressively, running up and down through the gears a lot, with some pulls near the redline. And it has good sound, so you can hear the engine. This can be a challenge, especially in open cars, where wind noise kills the sound above very low speeds. You've got to use an external mike or otherwise protect the camera from the wind to pull it off. But it makes a huge difference.
The GoPro (or something similar) used here has a little trick that works to our advantage. The ultra-wide lens makes the car look like it's going faster than it is.
Too many of these videos are shot in heavy traffic on urban streets, and at very slow speeds, with none of the boring stops at traffic lights edited out. They're an afterthought that don't do the car justice and aren't helping the sale at all. Buyers think, "If he won't take it over 35 or get past third gear, what else is he hiding?"
If you're clueless about this stuff, it's probably worth it finding a friend who can help or even paying a pro, considering the potential returns on investment.
.
@Sacto Mitch you hit the nail on the head, and there are a handful of additional items I tell people about when they want to run on BAT, but a handful of key points in your listing can make a HUGE difference. I've, literally, seen the same spec car bring a $10-20k difference with a better auction format/listing.
agree that a good video not only for the basics is important but its also what most want to see for all the parts of the car, then a good drive video to set the tone of the car. Like a movie trailer.
Being in the Bay Area (home of Bat) I know many of the people who work or worked there including Randy who started it, along with lots of car YouTubers. It's pretty easy for me to find a good video person and editor if it's not the same.
Challenge that many have is finding a good video person and paying for it. Many are shocked when they hear $300 plus for good photos, and the price of a quality and dynamic video is over $500 in my location. Thats sometimes a hard pill to swallow for many just wanting to sell their cars. But I do agree, and have sold cars at higher prices with a good video selection.
$800-$1250 sounds pretty cheap if it pumps the “sell price” 25% or more. Sometimes (always?) you need to spend some money to make some money.
YMMV.
@ALB posted:I don't exactly consider a 356 (or 912) engine an "upgrade" either, and it certainly isn't the best bang for your buck. A 2 liter-ish Type 1 putting out anywhere from 1½ times to twice as much power as a 356 pushrod 1500/1600 (with the VW all in by 6,000 rpm, so it's still relatively easy to take care of and has GREAT street manners, as opposed to a 7,000+ rpm 356 engine) is still a good bit cheaper, and with 30 to 40 (or more) hp than even a "period correct" 1500 cc 4cam engine (with the 4cam engine being significantly more than 10 times the cost of the modified Type 1) doesn't really make sense to most of us- or most of the people who worship our cars from afar, for that matter.
Now why people put 356/912 engines in their Speedsters or Spyders, along with as many original 356 parts as they can find (or afford)- that's a whole 'nother discussion entirely...
It cost me $5K to ASSEMBLE my 912 motor in the early 90’s. About the same time a CB crate motor was ~$1500-$2K.
I don’t get it, either. And I’ve replied as much to a few VW neigh-sayers on BaT.
Interesting to hear the comments as the person who sold this car on BaT.
For Porsche guys like me, guys who build and collect these cars, there's something almost romantic about using as much Porsche in the build as possible. This car actually had a 1600S motor out of a 1956 Speedster so the romance is strong. Silly, I know but it is what it is.
Not leaving the family, btw. Planning my next 550 build and going even more Porsche.
@LiveFromNY posted:Planning my next 550 build and going even more Porsche.
I hope by that you mean "T4" -- but you do you, friend.
@Stan Galat posted:I hope by that you mean "T4" -- but you do you, friend.
Stan, everyone knows the "Porsche" type 4 is just a VW engine. 
@Stan Galat posted:I hope by that you mean "T4" -- but you do you, friend.
Faux-Cam
So, @LiveFromNY what is your first name? I see it says you are from Austin?
For everyone else, a faux-cam is a 356 motor dressed to look like a 4-cam.
http://www.willhoitautorestora...M%20Data%20Sheet.pdf
I don't know what your Spyder goals are, but 120 hp in a 1500 pound car isn't breathtaking performance. I know it's only a VW engine, but either a type1 or type4 will give you 150 to 200 hp.
I'm north of 180hp and pretty chuffed with the performance.
I know a bunch of guys go for authenticity, but I figure since everyone knows it is a replica why bother?
I'm JP.
Yes, a faux-cam. And a properly built 356 motor by a builder like Willhoit can easily produce 50% more hp over the stock build. I've got one of his twin-plug engines in another car producing probably 150hp and it's a kick in the seat to drive.
As for why I'd bother? For the same reason others climb mountains. Because they can. The idea of stuffing a Spyder full of Porsche just sounds like fun. But then, I'm more of a builder than a driver. Always have been.
@LiveFromNY posted:Faux-Cam
That's pretty cool.
It's not what most of us would do, but it's a big tent and we love to watch other people spend money. I'm excited to see what you have in mind here.
I've done a twin-plug T1 engine and think it's pretty cool. The devil, of course, is in the details. Mine suffered from spark scatter on a trip to the Tail of the Dragon and nearly burned to the ground. I'm thinking synchronizing two mechanical advance distributors to be in perfect time with each other as they mechanically advance would present a similar challenge.
But my twin-plug 2276 was engine number 3 or 4 (depending on how you count) to have resided in my car, so I'm not going to cast any stones. I really do love somebody willing to color outside the lines.
That you're willing to drop 55 large for an engine in a plastic clown car means there's a lot more that unites than separates us. This hobby is a long, long way from the 1600 dual-port hotrods in $5000 cars that were the order of the day 25 years ago.
Welcome to the madness.
If you’re going for authentic. Why not go for broke:
https://bringatrailer.com/list...ann-four-cam-engine/
I’m guessing the replicas they made for that run of aluminum Spyders would run half that?
Yep, a replica stuffed with Porsche stuff can be a lot of fun.
If done properly...
@Bob: IM S6 posted:Yep, a replica stuffed with Porsche stuff can be a lot of fun.
If done properly...
Say it with me: 718
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@LiveFromNY posted:I'm JP.
Yes, a faux-cam. And a properly built 356 motor by a builder like Willhoit can easily produce 50% more hp over the stock build. I've got one of his twin-plug engines in another car producing probably 150hp and it's a kick in the seat to drive.
As for why I'd bother? For the same reason others climb mountains. Because they can. The idea of stuffing a Spyder full of Porsche just sounds like fun. But then, I'm more of a builder than a driver. Always have been.
That's cool. As has been said a bajillion times: you do you.
I'm a fabricator/adjuster/driver kind of guy. I mod, drive, then tweak until I'm happy.
I'm happy
---with my type1 2165cc 10.2:1 EFI dry sump monster. I also have carbon fiber seat heaters, a gas heater, and a bluetooth receiver/amp/speaker package. All of these extras are hidden and you wouldn't notice them. Eventually I'll finish my folding top and custom plexi side curtains to make the car 3 season. As it is, it's a 2.5 season car.
The only "nod" to originals is the reproduction e-brake between the seats. And a vintage 1956 plate. And as you said, because I can.
The only "Porsche" content is my 911 fan, ring, and alternator.
@LiveFromNY I look forward to our conversation on Friday. You have some very interesting ideas for a cool build and I look forward cohering your others. I'm not sure if Isabell is on this page, I didn't see her handle, but we did a Spyder for her several years ago with a TON of changes leaning towards authenticity in body/interior down to a one off clamshell, original firewall, chassis brace changes to mimic the Spyder a bit more, custom fuel tank, to name a few.
In the interim I would suggest speaking with John (Willhoit) if you haven't already and get his honest take on the 4 cam shroud. I'm also tagging @arajani (Anand) who is a good client/friend of both mine and John's and one of the only people I know personally who has run Kuzu fan shrouds. He is also friends with a few guys who have run the Kuzu shroud on a Wilhoit built big motor. The reason I mention it is that, as far as I know, most of these guys have removed the Kuzu shroud from their builds. I am not 100% sure what the exact reasons were, but at the time of removal, overheating was certainly a speculation... I know that the last Spyder we did for Anand had the Kuzu shroud and it was removed for fitment reasons (raising of the motor height in the car prevented that shroud from being used, a non-issue in a Beck). However, we did have some other issues with such a high revving motor in that we destroyed a few generators at higher revs, they just wouldn't take the higher RPMs and stay in one piece, and Anand spoke directly with one of the manufacturers about some possible fixes for that issue.
Just some food for thought and some potential contacts for guys who have been down this road and may have some money and time saving advice to aid in your project.
@chines1: Thanks for tagging me here!
First, I’ll start with a humble disclaimer: I am a 356 enthusiast (read: not an expert!). I care for critically ill babies for a living and work in the healthcare technology space. This stuff, while fascinating to me, is not something I understand at a deep level. I have no formal training in air-cooled engine building or engineering!
I had a 4 cam shroud on my spyder. When I chose to use transmission mounts to raise the motor and transmission in my CMI car (so that it would sit like the real cars do), the shroud did not fit. So I removed it.
Here’s what I do know from talking to John Willhoit. He does not recommend this shroud. A few reasons why:
Fan blades: The dual fans in the 4 can shroud move a ton of air. The blades should be welded (some of the early fans made by Bob Garretson, an original factory trained Carrera mechanic) did not do well when revved hard.
Generators: The generators also do come apart (an alternator will not fit in an early fan shroud). There is a place called BNR in Southern California that has methods of keeping this from happen at high revvs; we installed such a generator in my car. They are inherently less reliable than an alternator and are still subject to failing. Removing one from a shroud is no picnic (just ask Carey!!).
Cooling issues: 4 cam heads have substantial finning and can be well-cooled by this shroud. The air has to be directly very carefully over the heads of a type 1 or a 356 616 motor. Pat Downs build the engine tin for my build and spent HOURS making it perfect. Many do not also consider the crank pulley which needs to be sized down a bit (I believe the real 4 cams were 1:1). There’s a lot of engineering considerations and testing that should be done before one considers this. Anecdote: I did talk to another gentleman who had a 4 cam shroud mated to a 356 motor. He drove his 356 up a hill and the motor burned up. He removed the shroud, plopped in a new 356 motor with the original shroud and went on his way. He never did much to investigate this failure.
My recommendation: stay away. Sure it looks cool, but I don’t think it is worth $15,000 and a burned up motor.
Anand
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If you're really looking for authenticity in a 550 replica engine, you might try contacting Rainer Cooney at his Spyder Factory up in New Hampshire. He was building completely authentic 4-cam engines with the added bonus of a crank-fire ignition to eliminate the notorious spark bounce of the original Fuhrmann engines. I don't know if he's still in business or not - He originally was building only three cars (and a slew of spare parts) and I don't know his current status.
@Gordon Nichols: I speak to Rainer every few months — he is a wonderful person who is very gracious with his incredible knowledge. He does have another younger man working with him on the spyder re-creations.
I agree with you — his stuff is the real deal! He is a perfectionist and has made his cars run really well. That is a whole different price point!
Oops. When I originally posted this I assumed it was a type 4. Guess not. I think I’ll keep my 2.65 L type 4 “Porsche” engine in my IM. A 356 engine is a little too Porsche for a clown car.
@Gordon Nichols posted:If you're really looking for authenticity in a 550 replica engine, you might try contacting Rainer Cooney at his Spyder Factory up in New Hampshire. He was building completely authentic 4-cam engines with the added bonus of a crank-fire ignition to eliminate the notorious spark bounce of the original Fuhrmann engines. I don't know if he's still in business or not - He originally was building only three cars (and a slew of spare parts) and I don't know his current status.
Very interesting, thanks for posting that.
@arajani posted:@Gordon Nichols: I speak to Rainer every few months — he is a wonderful person who is very gracious with his incredible knowledge. He does have another younger man working with him on the spyder re-creations.
I agree with you — his stuff is the real deal! He is a perfectionist and has made his cars run really well. That is a whole different price point!
The last time I was up in Barnstead, NH to visit Rainer he had one of his new-build 4-cam engines in his personal Speedster. I've seen a number of 4-cam engines over the years, and they are very cranky engines - They don't like to start, then they don't like to idle and once they kinda-sorta settle down to idle around 1,500rpm they don't like to get under way at anything under 3 grand. In fact, 4 grand is better as a bottom limit and they can rev up into the stratosphere.
His new build 4-cams are all crank-fire ignition, hidden so you wouldn't know, and he still uses the two distributors. The engine in his Speedster was fuel injected when I was there. He stood outside of the cockpit, turned the key and hit the button and it started right up and idled at 800rpm, sweet as you please. Punch it and the revs were instantaneous. All that is nice, but the sound of those Fuhrmann engines is glorious.
Is it worth what he's asking for a single turn-key engine? That I can't answer. He has proven that he can build an improved version of a wonderful engine, built entirely to original Porsche engineering drawings. I just don't know if the market will make it worthwhile for him beyond being a source of very expensive, spare, unobtanium parts.
Here's Rainer (red shirt) starting an original 550 at Paul Russell Restorations in Ipswich, MA a few years ago. I thought it sounded pretty sweet, but Rainer's conclusion was that the gas in the tank was too old to do the engine justice.
@arajani posted:@chines1: Thanks for tagging me here!
First, I’ll start with a humble disclaimer: I am a 356 enthusiast (read: not an expert!). I care for critically ill babies for a living and work in the healthcare technology space. This stuff, while fascinating to me, is not something I understand at a deep level. I have no formal training in air-cooled engine building or engineering!
I had a 4 cam shroud on my spyder. When I chose to use transmission mounts to raise the motor and transmission in my CMI car (so that it would sit like the real cars do), the shroud did not fit. So I removed it.
Here’s what I do know from talking to John Willhoit. He does not recommend this shroud. A few reasons why:
Fan blades: The dual fans in the 4 can shroud move a ton of air. The blades should be welded (some of the early fans made by Bob Garretson, an original factory trained Carrera mechanic) did not do well when revved hard.
Generators: The generators also do come apart (an alternator will not fit in an early fan shroud). There is a place called BNR in Southern California that has methods of keeping this from happen at high revvs; we installed such a generator in my car. They are inherently less reliable than an alternator and are still subject to failing. Removing one from a shroud is no picnic (just ask Carey!!).
Cooling issues: 4 cam heads have substantial finning and can be well-cooled by this shroud. The air has to be directly very carefully over the heads of a type 1 or a 356 616 motor. Pat Downs build the engine tin for my build and spent HOURS making it perfect. Many do not also consider the crank pulley which needs to be sized down a bit (I believe the real 4 cams were 1:1). There’s a lot of engineering considerations and testing that should be done before one considers this. Anecdote: I did talk to another gentleman who had a 4 cam shroud mated to a 356 motor. He drove his 356 up a hill and the motor burned up. He removed the shroud, plopped in a new 356 motor with the original shroud and went on his way. He never did much to investigate this failure.
My recommendation: stay away. Sure it looks cool, but I don’t think it is worth $15,000 and a burned up motor.
Anand
Was thinking about you @arajani when I first saw this post. I was wondering how your 550 has been.
Thanks @Kevin - Bay Area! The car is great - it is unquestionably my favorite car to drive!
Anand
Feel free to "burden" us with photos (or videos). I loved following your car's build in Indiana and at your home.
Cold start of my (former) car from earlier this year.
@dlearl476 posted:If you’re looking for a special motor to drop into a Spyder, there always a Chuck Beck designed POLO motor.
The original:
More than a Pat Downs motor, but much less than a Fuhrman repro.
I sold that motor to Rod Emory several years ago now, but as I understand it, he is now producing them for his builds, and I believe that Dean Polopous is still producing them as well.
@chines1 posted:I sold that motor to Rod Emory several years ago now, but as I understand it, he is now producing them for his builds, and I believe that Dean Polopous is still producing them as well.
That's been my understanding as well.