What does it take to put a 911 motor in a Speedster? Are there special motor mounts? Any input would be appreciated.
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
What does it take to put a 911 motor in a Speedster? Are there special motor mounts? Any input would be appreciated.
Guts
Angela Lane put one in a Spyder. Impressive lady and car. I met the lady and saw the car up close and personal in CA. Impressed, did I say impressed. You betcha.
Henry at Intermeccanica has done a number of 911 powered speedsters. I don't know if anyone has had any success putting a 911 engine in a pan-based speedster. Spyder adaptations are sweet and have a lot more room for the engine but as was pointed out to me at Knotts, the passenger's interior of the car gets a bit smaller.
I would ad to Bill G's reply - money.
If GB was still posting he would say something about all that weight in the back, but Brian P likes the one he has.
That flat 6 sure sounds good.
ed
If GB was still posting he would say something about all that weight in the back, but Brian P likes the one he has.
That flat 6 sure sounds good.
ed
George would have been right about the weight as well..
911s are known as tail draggers, and the extra 150 pounds+ that they sport is acceptable hanging off the ass end of a 3200+ pound car..BUT when you hang that much extra weight off the tail of a Speedster its notable in the handling department.
Also keep in mind the cost of owning a 911 engine- a set of spark plug wires that cost 40 bucks for a TI or TIV engine run 200+ bucks for a 911! If the alternator goes bad you are talking 250-400+ bucks for a new unit or 129 bucks for a TI.. These are just a few of the costs that are associated. Getting passed by a four cylinder is also much harder to stomach when you have a six :-)
911s are known as tail draggers, and the extra 150 pounds+ that they sport is acceptable hanging off the ass end of a 3200+ pound car..BUT when you hang that much extra weight off the tail of a Speedster its notable in the handling department.
Also keep in mind the cost of owning a 911 engine- a set of spark plug wires that cost 40 bucks for a TI or TIV engine run 200+ bucks for a 911! If the alternator goes bad you are talking 250-400+ bucks for a new unit or 129 bucks for a TI.. These are just a few of the costs that are associated. Getting passed by a four cylinder is also much harder to stomach when you have a six :-)
But if I can get into a 911 motor for $1,500, wouldn't it be worth it? I mean, a built 4 cylinder is going to run me more than that... Unless I'm wrong, which is possible. Let me know.
as owner of 911s for 25 yrs I must concur with waht Jake says. FOrget the cost of the alternator. Try replacing one. Keep the band ages handy. Everything is four times as expensive and complicated. If you are not familiar with service on a 911 go to my web site www.porschetuneup.com. VeeDubs are soooooo much easier.
I'd have to echo all the above...even though my car has a 911 engine. If it was not there to begin with I don't think I'd put one in there now.
Its not just as simple as bolting it up ... there's much more if you want to do it right and address the handling issues and the need for increased airflow in the engine compartment and the cooling issues. I'm still changing mine from year to year.
And ditto on the cost. Anything Porsche is a lot more expensive. I rebuilt my 4 cylinder 912 about 12 years ago...about $5K in parts and machining alone. I did all the work.
$1,500 for a good 911? I got a 911S longblock last year and I think I paid about $3,000. If I didn't have a donor engine the ignition, fuel system, electrical, etc could have easily added another few grand to that.
But if its the challenge that you want then go for it! Some folks just like to do stuff to prove to themselves that they can and get enjoyment from that. Its your car.
Brian
Its not just as simple as bolting it up ... there's much more if you want to do it right and address the handling issues and the need for increased airflow in the engine compartment and the cooling issues. I'm still changing mine from year to year.
And ditto on the cost. Anything Porsche is a lot more expensive. I rebuilt my 4 cylinder 912 about 12 years ago...about $5K in parts and machining alone. I did all the work.
$1,500 for a good 911? I got a 911S longblock last year and I think I paid about $3,000. If I didn't have a donor engine the ignition, fuel system, electrical, etc could have easily added another few grand to that.
But if its the challenge that you want then go for it! Some folks just like to do stuff to prove to themselves that they can and get enjoyment from that. Its your car.
Brian
Do you want to see pictures, guys?
http://trinityhome.org/harakiri/speedsterpics2003.html
Frode, Norway
http://trinityhome.org/harakiri/speedsterpics2003.html
Frode, Norway
Frode, that's a nice mess of cars.
ed
ed
great pics/cars
Frode has the toys - Nice Cars and Pictures
I just wish I could say that it was my speedster. Actually it belongs to Tom Kerremans, Belgium.
Frode
Frode
frode,
having lived in scandanavia and missing it quite much, can you possibly post some pictures of some of the ladies in the cars too?
george
having lived in scandanavia and missing it quite much, can you possibly post some pictures of some of the ladies in the cars too?
george
I had a 2.7 Porsche motor in my 1970 VW single cab. I liked the truck, but I was happy to sell it. I kept on having nightmares about something going wrong with the motor ($$$). I would have been much happier with a 2110 T1 motor.
same here Ron, I used to drive a lotus (every day car). It was great when it was running
right but there was no such thing as a small(read cheap) problem
right but there was no such thing as a small(read cheap) problem
Adam,
Remember that you can do anything if you have money, determination and at least moderate intelligence. The question is, should you?
Henry @ IM has done 911 engined speedstahs. I have great appreciation for his workmanship and would look very hard at his conversion to see what he has done. Emulate as much as possible, improve where possible.
The 911 engine and transmission are something like 200-250 lbs heavier than the 4 cylinder drivetrain. I would be extremely hesitant to put a 911 engine to a VW transaxle unless it were purpose built (and there are several companies who build really stout trannys). The engine is probably 150 lbs heavier. All out the back. Need to compensate for that somehow. Porsche put pig iron in the nose of some of the 356 cars to compensate for the 4 cylinder!! In the 911 they had two differente wheelbases, the longer one (1969?)stayed and the short one was dropped like an bad smelling blind date. Also, some of the 911s put two batteries up front instead of the inelegant pig iron arrangement. Same idea. 911 went from ferrous metal trailing arms to aluminum which saved weight at the rear HUGELY. In short, a 911, one of my favorite cars in the world is often described as "Sound development triumphing over basically unsound engineering." That is in reference to the heavy rear-end nature of the car.. (continuing post)
Remember that you can do anything if you have money, determination and at least moderate intelligence. The question is, should you?
Henry @ IM has done 911 engined speedstahs. I have great appreciation for his workmanship and would look very hard at his conversion to see what he has done. Emulate as much as possible, improve where possible.
The 911 engine and transmission are something like 200-250 lbs heavier than the 4 cylinder drivetrain. I would be extremely hesitant to put a 911 engine to a VW transaxle unless it were purpose built (and there are several companies who build really stout trannys). The engine is probably 150 lbs heavier. All out the back. Need to compensate for that somehow. Porsche put pig iron in the nose of some of the 356 cars to compensate for the 4 cylinder!! In the 911 they had two differente wheelbases, the longer one (1969?)stayed and the short one was dropped like an bad smelling blind date. Also, some of the 911s put two batteries up front instead of the inelegant pig iron arrangement. Same idea. 911 went from ferrous metal trailing arms to aluminum which saved weight at the rear HUGELY. In short, a 911, one of my favorite cars in the world is often described as "Sound development triumphing over basically unsound engineering." That is in reference to the heavy rear-end nature of the car.. (continuing post)
Everything in life comes down to balance and your engine is no exception. You must balance the HP and handling with the $$ you have to spend and the chassis you have to work with. My spyder with its mid engine configuration, does not suffer for the addition of the weight as far as distribution goes. The additional weight was very evenly divided front/rear. Of course, every addition of weight slows a car down, hurts braking and undermines handling no matter what so bear that in mind.
The speedstah will benefit from the power, but will be hurt in the handling significantly. Please approach Henry @ IM and see what he has done to compensate. We've done some 911 engine into 912 car swaps and found it straight forward, but even on those bodies, there was a difference in handling. Remember, you want to have FUN!
A $1500 911 engine is not a bargain. It's a fright pig. This will be an early engine, magnesium case, carbureted. The very very early aluminum case engines are quite valuable so if this is one, buy it and resell it to finance your fun. The problem with the mag case is that when they over heat, they sag. Then the case maybe saves with alot of machining but is probably junk. On any magnesium case motor, it will cost $2000-$3000 more than any aluminum case motor to rebuild. If you are lucky. The estimate I had to rebuild my driving POS magnesium case motor (after full tear down) was $10,820 bucks. Needless to say, I ran screaming from that motor (which I had already spent $8000 on) and will NEVER have another one...(cont)
The speedstah will benefit from the power, but will be hurt in the handling significantly. Please approach Henry @ IM and see what he has done to compensate. We've done some 911 engine into 912 car swaps and found it straight forward, but even on those bodies, there was a difference in handling. Remember, you want to have FUN!
A $1500 911 engine is not a bargain. It's a fright pig. This will be an early engine, magnesium case, carbureted. The very very early aluminum case engines are quite valuable so if this is one, buy it and resell it to finance your fun. The problem with the mag case is that when they over heat, they sag. Then the case maybe saves with alot of machining but is probably junk. On any magnesium case motor, it will cost $2000-$3000 more than any aluminum case motor to rebuild. If you are lucky. The estimate I had to rebuild my driving POS magnesium case motor (after full tear down) was $10,820 bucks. Needless to say, I ran screaming from that motor (which I had already spent $8000 on) and will NEVER have another one...(cont)
The 2.7 liter engines are mag case but most are the much improved 7R case. They are the best of the bad cases and are usually the foundation for the RS and RSR clone cars. These can be built safely but usually at a premium. In stock form, the 2.7 is just 150-170 hp brand new. Frankly, Raby can build you a Type IV in that power range that runs great, lives a respectable lifespan (don't know how long, jack, please fill in), and has great customer service. It will require regular maintenance, get good at valve adjustments. If what I read on this site is correct, plan on adjusting valves every 3,000 miles. On a P-car motor, you adjust them on 30,000 mile intervals (source- Bently Service Manual). The adjustment will cost you more $$.
Everything on a P-car motor costs more money. But they run robustly for a long time. The engine currently in my spyder will be pulled out this fall for overhaul. This is the motor I drove to the James Dean thing. Its an 82 3.0 with 149,000 on the clock. Never opened up, not even a valve job. This motor, stock is 180 hp. Pelican Forum shows dyno results with PMO carbs and headers at a 20 hp improvement. My motor is a little soft, I'd say its 170-180 tops. But it did that for 149,000 miles! I love these motors.
Let's explore another avenue. Why not a subie motor? Leave it rear engined, put the radiator up front (weight compensation). Should handle well, go like STINK, cheap to build, cheap to buy, cheap to maintain, good gas mileage. Why not? Frankly, a well built turbo subie motor would eat my P-car engine for LUNCH, and it would do it for 100,000 miles. Right now, I hope someone is looking at a munched WRX STI and going Hmm.....
You can fit a 911 engine in your car. I love 911 engines and would put one in my speedstah (if I had a speedstah). But we all know I'm a bubble off plum... In short, review all your options, think hard and dont be afraid to do something that no one else has done. I've put Chevy 350's in Jaguars, a rotary in a Fiat X19 and now the P-car motor in a spyder. Have fun, build what you love and remember that eccentric people make the world more interesting place!! angela
Everything on a P-car motor costs more money. But they run robustly for a long time. The engine currently in my spyder will be pulled out this fall for overhaul. This is the motor I drove to the James Dean thing. Its an 82 3.0 with 149,000 on the clock. Never opened up, not even a valve job. This motor, stock is 180 hp. Pelican Forum shows dyno results with PMO carbs and headers at a 20 hp improvement. My motor is a little soft, I'd say its 170-180 tops. But it did that for 149,000 miles! I love these motors.
Let's explore another avenue. Why not a subie motor? Leave it rear engined, put the radiator up front (weight compensation). Should handle well, go like STINK, cheap to build, cheap to buy, cheap to maintain, good gas mileage. Why not? Frankly, a well built turbo subie motor would eat my P-car engine for LUNCH, and it would do it for 100,000 miles. Right now, I hope someone is looking at a munched WRX STI and going Hmm.....
You can fit a 911 engine in your car. I love 911 engines and would put one in my speedstah (if I had a speedstah). But we all know I'm a bubble off plum... In short, review all your options, think hard and dont be afraid to do something that no one else has done. I've put Chevy 350's in Jaguars, a rotary in a Fiat X19 and now the P-car motor in a spyder. Have fun, build what you love and remember that eccentric people make the world more interesting place!! angela
Intermeccanica does indeed make a 911 speedster. However, it isn't simply a matter of dropping a 2.7 L mill in the back of a pan-based car. The frame and body are purpose built for the application with a longer wheelbase, and stronger frame members. Henry builds the cars using owner supplied mechanicals, including suspension and drive-line parts.
Anything is possible, but not everything is advisable. A 911 spyder like Angela owns makes sense. A 911 speedster sacrifices quite a bit of "balance" for something less tangible. No possible economic argument can be made for having the conversion done.
Yes, a 911 engine will go 200K mi w/o a rebuild, if cared for properly. Angela drives those kind of miles. But, given the fact that almost nobody else drives a speedster more than 5K mi/ yr, I'd say that's probably more longevity than you are looking for. Factor in that you could buy 4 nice 150 h/p Type 1 engines (complete) for the cost of that 911, and unless you NEED a Porsche engine for other (intangible) reasons- I'd go with something else.
Anything is possible, but not everything is advisable. A 911 spyder like Angela owns makes sense. A 911 speedster sacrifices quite a bit of "balance" for something less tangible. No possible economic argument can be made for having the conversion done.
Yes, a 911 engine will go 200K mi w/o a rebuild, if cared for properly. Angela drives those kind of miles. But, given the fact that almost nobody else drives a speedster more than 5K mi/ yr, I'd say that's probably more longevity than you are looking for. Factor in that you could buy 4 nice 150 h/p Type 1 engines (complete) for the cost of that 911, and unless you NEED a Porsche engine for other (intangible) reasons- I'd go with something else.
Adam, unless you are up for Henry at IM building one of his beautiful 911 specials. I would consider a large displacement Type IV over a 911. It will not be cheap (about what that $1500 911 engine will cost after it throws a timing chain) and it will not sound as cool as a 911, but it will be better in every other respect for this application.
I drove Paul Harford's Massive Type IV equipped Vintage Speedster and it is Euro-Spec 930 fast, scary fast actually.
I drove Paul Harford's Massive Type IV equipped Vintage Speedster and it is Euro-Spec 930 fast, scary fast actually.
"Stupid-fast", actually.