I'm looking for information regarding the use of 94mm pistons/cylinders with Type 1 engines. Opinions about reliablilty, over heating, longevity, etc. will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
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I'm looking for information regarding the use of 94mm pistons/cylinders with Type 1 engines. Opinions about reliablilty, over heating, longevity, etc. will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Thanks
94 mm with a stock 69mm crank is a very reliable motor, you can use just the stock case mounted oil cooler without overheating concerns. If you have it in the budget, spend a few bucks on a balanced crank, Engel 110 cam, decent heads and exhaust..you'll be happy with the overall reliable performance. ~Alan
Thanks Alan,
How about if I bump the stroke up to 78mm or 82mm?
How about if I bump the stroke up to 78mm or 82mm?
RS-info here for reference:
http://www.aircooled.net/gnrlsite/resource/articles/t1hpeng.htm
http://www.aircooled.net/gnrlsite/resource/articles/t1hpeng.htm
Here comes my 2 cents Russell!
I had a "long stroke" (82x90.5) 2110 in a '60 VW convert. It made way too much torque! I gladly sent it back to Germany. The "beast" was not really that fun to drive. And a bit scary, I might add.
Now I have a 76 x 94 CB Performance 2110 (2109) in my speedy and I love to drive it. I now have 26K trouble free miles on the motor and expect many more. Of coarse it requires an external oil cooler so I can cruise I 5 at 70 miles per hour all Summer long.
Good Luck on your project Valley Guy!
Ernie
I had a "long stroke" (82x90.5) 2110 in a '60 VW convert. It made way too much torque! I gladly sent it back to Germany. The "beast" was not really that fun to drive. And a bit scary, I might add.
Now I have a 76 x 94 CB Performance 2110 (2109) in my speedy and I love to drive it. I now have 26K trouble free miles on the motor and expect many more. Of coarse it requires an external oil cooler so I can cruise I 5 at 70 miles per hour all Summer long.
Good Luck on your project Valley Guy!
Ernie
Agreed, a 76mm crank is the best of all worlds. Terrific performance and you have a wonderful choice of dedicated stroker rods, pistons, barrels, shims, connecting rods, push rods and such with readily available charts/math/info on shim sizing, deck height and push rod length. Easy Peasy.
I'm foolishly in the midst of a 74mm stroker, which requires a mix of stroker and non-stroker specific parts with too many options in between. Longer pushrods or stock push rods elephant foot adjusters and rocker shims for an example of just one.
Which parts to chose for the best/strongest engines making me nuts ! !
Luck,
TC
I'm foolishly in the midst of a 74mm stroker, which requires a mix of stroker and non-stroker specific parts with too many options in between. Longer pushrods or stock push rods elephant foot adjusters and rocker shims for an example of just one.
Which parts to chose for the best/strongest engines making me nuts ! !
Luck,
TC
I have a 74 x 94 2054 that I am very happy with.
Tom,
Which way did you go for the valve train components? Longer push rods or elephant foot adjusters? Any rocker shims used?
I'm undecided.
Also, if you remember, what size shims did you use to bring the deck height back into spec. I'm planning on .090 but am open to suggestions.
Could use some help if you can provided it.
Thanks !
TC
Which way did you go for the valve train components? Longer push rods or elephant foot adjusters? Any rocker shims used?
I'm undecided.
Also, if you remember, what size shims did you use to bring the deck height back into spec. I'm planning on .090 but am open to suggestions.
Could use some help if you can provided it.
Thanks !
TC
TC. I'm clueless. CB Performance built mine for a turnkey Beck.
TC - you still need to modify the length of the pushrods if you run elephant-feet adjusters. You can shim some of them if it's a basic build, but i chose to do chromo pushrods
"1.1 Ratio Rocker Arms w/ swivel feet adjusters"...... That's what's in my CB motor. I don't know if that is the same as "elephant foot" or not, but valve adjustment couldn't be easier for me.
http://www.cbperformance.com/turnkeys.asp
http://www.cbperformance.com/turnkeys.asp
TC: John at aircooled.net has a really awesome CR calculator on his site. Or are you more concerned with piston to head clearance?
Anyway, I used his calculator to take my CR from 10.1:1 to 9.8:1. Works great!
To answer the original question: I have a 78 X 94 2165cc type 1 with over 23000 miles on it. Really good power and torque. 94s are so much better than 92s cause they have nice thick cylinder walls. Next best step down is 90.5s. Machining is machining so go for the 94s to get displacement.
Anyway, I used his calculator to take my CR from 10.1:1 to 9.8:1. Works great!
To answer the original question: I have a 78 X 94 2165cc type 1 with over 23000 miles on it. Really good power and torque. 94s are so much better than 92s cause they have nice thick cylinder walls. Next best step down is 90.5s. Machining is machining so go for the 94s to get displacement.
I was thinking of running cut to length chromoly push rods, mainly because I also have HD valve springs in the heads, but john (at Air-Cooled) was the one who said that the longer push rods wouldn't be needed with the elephant foot adjusters. He even suggested that I could get away with the stock VW push rods, they would be borderline but I could use 'em if I kept a close eye on them for flexing..
Link here:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=495456
The more info/contradictory info I get on running with a small 74mm stroker, the more I just want to trash it and buy a new 76mm kit instead.
Too much mixing and matching of stock and stroker compenents with a 74mm and too many contradictory suggestions . . .
You know?
Link here:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=495456
The more info/contradictory info I get on running with a small 74mm stroker, the more I just want to trash it and buy a new 76mm kit instead.
Too much mixing and matching of stock and stroker compenents with a 74mm and too many contradictory suggestions . . .
You know?
i don't have experience with that stroke crank, but what about a full dry assembly?
Anyone running thick walled 92s in a 94 bore? I've heard they run cooler than 94s, with only a small drop in displacement.
Ron
Ron
I've never heard of a "thick wall" 92.... You can only bore a standard case so far before the studs fall out....
Leon, your comment addresses one of my main concerns: I wonder if boring the case for 94mm cylinders is going jsut a bit "too far" regarding the case studs?
Modern Cases (since 1994 I believe) have all come with steel case saver iserts cast into them.... I ran a CB Perf. 1915 for over 30,000mi without pitty and had no problems with them, the studs, or the heads...... Troubles were from exhaust leaks, carbs and shift linkage...
So many people on this site run 1915, 2275, and 2337 cc engines without issues, that its almost a moot point....
So many people on this site run 1915, 2275, and 2337 cc engines without issues, that its almost a moot point....
"I've never heard of a "thick wall" 92.... You can only bore a standard case so far before the studs fall out.... "
The thick wall 92mm barrels are just that, thicker than the much maligned standard 92mm barrels which can cause over heating.
The case and heads are cut for 94mm barrels and a thick wall 92mm barrel is used which accept 92mm pistons but has a thicker wall and fits the 94mm bore.
The thick wall 92mm barrels are just that, thicker than the much maligned standard 92mm barrels which can cause over heating.
The case and heads are cut for 94mm barrels and a thick wall 92mm barrel is used which accept 92mm pistons but has a thicker wall and fits the 94mm bore.
Thick walled 92s fit in a 94 bore.
http://www.drdracingheads.com/xcart/AA-type-1-92mm-B-stroke-thick-walled-piston-and-cylinder-kit..html
http://www.drdracingheads.com/xcart/AA-type-1-92mm-B-stroke-thick-walled-piston-and-cylinder-kit..html
You got me TC......Oh well, live and learn.
What did I win . . . ?
"You can only bore a standard case so far before the studs fall out...."
Honestly, Leon, up until not too long ago I was in the same camp as you, never heard of thick walled cylinders and, after looking at how close the cut was to the head studs on a 94mm case, I was sure that the studs would pull out under any amount of torque at all.
A local older guy who has made his bones on VWs from WAY back and has become a friend and tutor of sorts pointed to the little metal inserts in the case and the 8mm head studs that went with them. Explaining that these inserts (case savers or whatever they're currently called) were installed at the factory to allow the use of thinner studs that stretched rather than pulled when being torqued multiple times.
The metal inserts and thinner studs are the whole reason that the cases can be cut almost to the very point that the studs would fall out.
I was only re-phrasing what I'd just learned, but it DID make me seem pretty smart, huh?
Not so much like a smarty pants, really. Just like a guy who knows his stuff and likes to help out others with the tech that he knows.
That's the level of, "I TOLD you so" that I'm shooting for these days.
Did I hit it or come on too strong ?
"You can only bore a standard case so far before the studs fall out...."
Honestly, Leon, up until not too long ago I was in the same camp as you, never heard of thick walled cylinders and, after looking at how close the cut was to the head studs on a 94mm case, I was sure that the studs would pull out under any amount of torque at all.
A local older guy who has made his bones on VWs from WAY back and has become a friend and tutor of sorts pointed to the little metal inserts in the case and the 8mm head studs that went with them. Explaining that these inserts (case savers or whatever they're currently called) were installed at the factory to allow the use of thinner studs that stretched rather than pulled when being torqued multiple times.
The metal inserts and thinner studs are the whole reason that the cases can be cut almost to the very point that the studs would fall out.
I was only re-phrasing what I'd just learned, but it DID make me seem pretty smart, huh?
Not so much like a smarty pants, really. Just like a guy who knows his stuff and likes to help out others with the tech that he knows.
That's the level of, "I TOLD you so" that I'm shooting for these days.
Did I hit it or come on too strong ?
Not in the least..... It just seems I get left in the dust, technically, more and more often....Duuuuhhh!
Hey Leon, just goes to show that you have a real life for yourself. It's perfectly fine to be out of touch with the tech for an engine built for over fifty years. Could be worse, consider all of the new tech for the Flathead Ford. And THEN to find out that they were being made and improved by Chrysler right up until the 70's.
http://www.btc-bci.com/~billben/french.htm
Just how much antique engine info are we required to keep up on. I'm having enough trouble keeping ahead of my current Mustang. Had to go on-line for over an hour just to locate the drain plugs to get all of the melted snow/rain water/leaves/crap out from the heater bulkhead.
The car smelled like my old man's farts from the day that I got it from him, turned out to be the wall of "gray water" behind the dash . . .
http://www.btc-bci.com/~billben/french.htm
Just how much antique engine info are we required to keep up on. I'm having enough trouble keeping ahead of my current Mustang. Had to go on-line for over an hour just to locate the drain plugs to get all of the melted snow/rain water/leaves/crap out from the heater bulkhead.
The car smelled like my old man's farts from the day that I got it from him, turned out to be the wall of "gray water" behind the dash . . .
I was stationed in France.... I was always amazed Simca used the V-8 60.... They got fairly good gas milage, considering..... ( gas was $2.00 / gal. in the early 60s.) The Gendarmes rode Terrot motor cycles.... These were either Enfield 500cc singles or BMWs built in France under license.... And then there was Dr Porsches revenge, the Renault 4 cv......
Yeah, but 4-CV's were really hard to kill.
Didn't they morph in to the Renault Dauphine here on America?
Now THAT was an easy car to kill...But usually they died simply from things falling off.....
Didn't they morph in to the Renault Dauphine here on America?
Now THAT was an easy car to kill...But usually they died simply from things falling off.....
Gordon... Yep... The 4cv was the father of the Dauphine (?)..... It was said that the 4cv killed more Frenchmen than died in the war....
I had a Renault 4CV when I was 17. A neighbour gave it to me. I broke my left arm in it while poorly maneuvering a 180 in front of the garage before bleeding the brakes. I gave it to another kid and his Mother gave me his weekly allownce...$3.75. The rad filler was actually outside, up top center of the rear hood. Gas jockeys were constantly trying to put gas in it. Here's a picture of one..not mine. The suicide doors on the front were cool.
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Do these things use 94mm cylinders??
A stroked motor with a 74mm crankshaft, stock rods and "A" pistons is only 1/4" wider (or less) than a stock 1600. A relatively easy build (a little case clearancing)and the power gains in the low end and midrange are great. There's a reason 356's came with a 74mm stroke; it moved the car around that much nicer.
Longevity with the longer stroke cranks isn't a problem, as long as good parts are used it's a matched combo and it isn't too wild (just a note- something that revs to 7000 or 7500 on a regular basis isn't going to last forever!!!). The 94mm piston/cylinder sets have proven themselves, they'll last almost as long as the 90.5's or thickwall 92's in any given combo.
TC- Don't worry about that 74mm crank; it will be a great motor? What's the rest of the combo?
Longevity with the longer stroke cranks isn't a problem, as long as good parts are used it's a matched combo and it isn't too wild (just a note- something that revs to 7000 or 7500 on a regular basis isn't going to last forever!!!). The 94mm piston/cylinder sets have proven themselves, they'll last almost as long as the 90.5's or thickwall 92's in any given combo.
TC- Don't worry about that 74mm crank; it will be a great motor? What's the rest of the combo?
Thanks Allen,
Of course, this is Russell's thread, but the parts going into this motor may help him decide on his own I'd imagine.
This one isn't going be anything special, it'll be going into the little Fiat 600, so it really doesn't have to be.
Full flowed dual-relief case
94mm A pistons
Rebuilt stock VW rods
Counter weighted 74mm eight dowel crank
Racer spacer, straight cut gears
Engel 120 cam and cut lifters
stock VW push rods (could be chromoly is needed)
Stock VW rockers on solid shaft
Single HD valve springs, titanium retainers, lash caps, and holders
Mag44 big valve heads with stage one porting, cut for 94mm and un-shrouded
Melling oil pump
Brothers billet pump cover and oil filter manifold
SPALL oil cooler and fan
Mini sump
Berg oil filler tower
Jaycee aluminum pulleys
Single side-draft 44DCOE Weber, EMPI manifold and end castings
Mallory ignition and distributor
1.5 inch merged header with off road exhaust pipe and ABARTH dual outlet muffler
That's all of the stuff in the box destined for this motor. I also have an "optional" box with an Engle 110 cam, Kadrons, 1.25 rockers, 1.4 rockers, etc. just in case.
TC
Of course, this is Russell's thread, but the parts going into this motor may help him decide on his own I'd imagine.
This one isn't going be anything special, it'll be going into the little Fiat 600, so it really doesn't have to be.
Full flowed dual-relief case
94mm A pistons
Rebuilt stock VW rods
Counter weighted 74mm eight dowel crank
Racer spacer, straight cut gears
Engel 120 cam and cut lifters
stock VW push rods (could be chromoly is needed)
Stock VW rockers on solid shaft
Single HD valve springs, titanium retainers, lash caps, and holders
Mag44 big valve heads with stage one porting, cut for 94mm and un-shrouded
Melling oil pump
Brothers billet pump cover and oil filter manifold
SPALL oil cooler and fan
Mini sump
Berg oil filler tower
Jaycee aluminum pulleys
Single side-draft 44DCOE Weber, EMPI manifold and end castings
Mallory ignition and distributor
1.5 inch merged header with off road exhaust pipe and ABARTH dual outlet muffler
That's all of the stuff in the box destined for this motor. I also have an "optional" box with an Engle 110 cam, Kadrons, 1.25 rockers, 1.4 rockers, etc. just in case.
TC