Has anyone any experience with LN Engineering's 95mm type 1 nicasil (Nickies) piston/cylinder sets? I have a Berg 86mm crank and the prospect of over 2400cc's (2438?) is very tempting...
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Has anyone any experience with LN Engineering's 95mm type 1 nicasil (Nickies) piston/cylinder sets? I have a Berg 86mm crank and the prospect of over 2400cc's (2438?) is very tempting...
I've been kicking around the idea for a long time. I'd be interested in your observations if/when you do it.
The appeal (besides the increased bore size) is that 95 mm is a Porsche 911 bore size, and as such, quality ring packs designed for nickasil cylinders are available. I think this alone makes it intriguing, as the rings available for 94 mm cylinders are not necessarily optimized for nickies. A chrome/chrome seal is not really a good idea.
The appeal (besides the increased bore size) is that 95 mm is a Porsche 911 bore size, and as such, quality ring packs designed for nickasil cylinders are available. I think this alone makes it intriguing, as the rings available for 94 mm cylinders are not necessarily optimized for nickies. A chrome/chrome seal is not really a good idea.
I can't speak to the 95's, I have 94 Nickies, but I found LN to be an excellent company to deal with, their support is first rate. I would find it hard to believe they would offer a product that was less than 100% in all respects...
All good points guys; I guess the questions I have specifically are
1-do their heat shedding capabilities live up to LN's claims (according to their website you could almost free up extra hp with a power pulley and not run into problems).
2- I'm guessing the extra mm of the 95's comes at the expense of cylinder wall thickness; does this affect their heat shedding capabilities?
Anybody think of anything else?
1-do their heat shedding capabilities live up to LN's claims (according to their website you could almost free up extra hp with a power pulley and not run into problems).
2- I'm guessing the extra mm of the 95's comes at the expense of cylinder wall thickness; does this affect their heat shedding capabilities?
Anybody think of anything else?
I have Chinese 94 nickasil cylinders, 9.8:1 compression, and a DTM with a power-pulley. My temps look great, but I can't run as lean, or as much advance as I'd like. Stay at about 9:1 an it'll be all Charles claims it is.
From an engineering standpoint the differences between a 94mm and a 95mm is of little to no consequence, at least in terms of heat soak and the like. I have run a power pully since day 1 on my 94 Nickies, the heads run very cool....that said, I did do ceramic coatings on the heads/valves/piston tops and the heads are ported Competition Eliminators. My only heat issues have been oil temps, and those are not really excessive, just require substantially more than stock cooling. I am 9:1 compression.....
Stan-What cam are you running? Are you using piston, valve face, combustion chamber or exhaust port coatings? Have you done the Bob Hoover case mods? Piston squirters? I remember you talking about your exhaust; what was the final design? In what conditions and outside temps does it start to get away on you? What's it doing, exactly?
Jim- Good to know. When does your oil get hot (around town or the highway or?) and how hot? How do you know the heads aren't getting hot as well? Do you have a CHT gauge?
Thanks guys in advance for letting me pick your brains; much appreciated! Al
Jim- Good to know. When does your oil get hot (around town or the highway or?) and how hot? How do you know the heads aren't getting hot as well? Do you have a CHT gauge?
Thanks guys in advance for letting me pick your brains; much appreciated! Al
Al, yes I have CHT installed. I have tried it on all cylinders but there is no measurable temperature differences between the 4. I am measuring the temps at the spark plug boss, not always the best location but accurate enough for my purposes I think. The DTM works very well regarding keeping cyl temps balanced.
I understand oil temps should go over 180 to remove moisture but should stay under 220 under most circumstances. In 100 degree plus Texas hot days oil temps just using DTM 914 oil cooler would quickly exceed 220 F. I immediately removed the 914 oil cooler and went to an external 96 plate cooler with electric fan. Under hard higher speed driving, (110-125 mph on a track for 15-45 minutes) oil temps even with the 96 plate cooler would gradually climb over the 220 mark. Some folks contend that the upper limit would be more like 240, but I don't like how the oil thins out at those temps (oil pressure drops noticably), so I prefer to be at 210 or so...
I added a dry sump and mounted 2 oil coolers up front, Carrera style, but bigger, coolers. I then had to add an oil thermostat as the temps never went over 160 or so. And with about 11 quarts of oil plus the 15 feet of tubing to carry the oil to the front of the car and back again, plus the externail oil filter....you get the picture...
Since then I have remounted the 914 DTM setup with a wet sump system, mostly because the dry sump solution was adding complecations I don't need for the moment...I have had the car out of service for sometime, so I need to return it to the road to see how the current arangement works....this engine with a dry sump was in my Spyder, I sold it and now have the same engine in my Speedster, hence the changes in cooling. The Spyder had a completely open engine bay, while the Speedster should ultimately have the closed engine bay to keep exhaust heat away from the engine cooling system...I hope...
I understand oil temps should go over 180 to remove moisture but should stay under 220 under most circumstances. In 100 degree plus Texas hot days oil temps just using DTM 914 oil cooler would quickly exceed 220 F. I immediately removed the 914 oil cooler and went to an external 96 plate cooler with electric fan. Under hard higher speed driving, (110-125 mph on a track for 15-45 minutes) oil temps even with the 96 plate cooler would gradually climb over the 220 mark. Some folks contend that the upper limit would be more like 240, but I don't like how the oil thins out at those temps (oil pressure drops noticably), so I prefer to be at 210 or so...
I added a dry sump and mounted 2 oil coolers up front, Carrera style, but bigger, coolers. I then had to add an oil thermostat as the temps never went over 160 or so. And with about 11 quarts of oil plus the 15 feet of tubing to carry the oil to the front of the car and back again, plus the externail oil filter....you get the picture...
Since then I have remounted the 914 DTM setup with a wet sump system, mostly because the dry sump solution was adding complecations I don't need for the moment...I have had the car out of service for sometime, so I need to return it to the road to see how the current arangement works....this engine with a dry sump was in my Spyder, I sold it and now have the same engine in my Speedster, hence the changes in cooling. The Spyder had a completely open engine bay, while the Speedster should ultimately have the closed engine bay to keep exhaust heat away from the engine cooling system...I hope...
Jim- Thanks for the good info; you've documented events well. Besides the Nickies, what's in the rest of the motor?
Jim:
I'm almost afraid to ask, but what complications was the dry-sump adding? I'm looking to solve some starvation issues with my set-up (which is a Bugpack 2 stage similar to the Auto-craft set-up you had). a 3.5 quart sump was completely unworkable for me. It's very, very hard to get a speedster lowered enough to be cool, without eliminating all ground clearance.
911s are dry sumped, and always have been. I'm progressing in that direction because it seems logical. It's also a freak-load of fabrication in my car.
I'm almost afraid to ask, but what complications was the dry-sump adding? I'm looking to solve some starvation issues with my set-up (which is a Bugpack 2 stage similar to the Auto-craft set-up you had). a 3.5 quart sump was completely unworkable for me. It's very, very hard to get a speedster lowered enough to be cool, without eliminating all ground clearance.
911s are dry sumped, and always have been. I'm progressing in that direction because it seems logical. It's also a freak-load of fabrication in my car.
Allen:
I'm going the other way from Jim-- I'm in the middle of ADDING a dry-sump system with all of the inherent complications. This change has required a new exhaust, and several other really involved bits 'o fabrication. I'll put up pictures, etc. when I'm done.
I haven't done a good job of documenting what I do to the car, but I'm trying to do better this time around the horn.
To answer your questions, I do have the coatings in the cylinder head on on my piston tops. I do not have the Hoover mods, or the piston squirters, although I would strongly recommend both. Next tear-down, I'll be doing both, along with adding a breather connection to the front of the case in the deck by #3.
I'm running an FK45 cam, and 48 Dellortos. I've been using a 1-3/4" sidewinder with the 2332-- but with the dry-sump conversion, I had a custom 1-5/8" A1 "low-down" merge-type header built this winter for the shorter primaries (they are about 34", compared to the sidewinders 44"). Packaging is a problem with this set-up, especially if you don't want the exhaust sticking out the back (I don't). For both headers, I built custom exhausts out of mandrel bends and mufflers from Summit Racing. I have an electrically operated muffler cut-out valve so I can run through mufflers the majority of the time, or an open exhaust if I'm feeling rowdy. The new exhaust is at the ceramic coater's waiting (the story of my life).
I'm using 911 motor mounts on both the transaxle and the rear of the engine. I made my "mustache" bar for the rear in heavy steel, and I'm re-making it in AL out of box-section tubing. I'm 75% done there.
I monitor all 4 cylinder temps with sensors under the plugs. I'm not dead-even like Jim, but CHT is always under control. I use the Type 4 cooler in the shroud, and an EMPI 96 plate cooler with fan and Mocal bypass thermostat. Oil temps stay under control here in the Midwest (hot/humid summers, but not Texas-hot). I'm using welded VW castings for the heads (extra finning as compared to bigger heads) and a DTM.
It's summer, and I'm still on jack-stands, but I'm making some amazing headway. If I was starting with a totally clean slate, I'd do a Type 4 with 100 mm + bores, and run a Tangerine Racing tri-Y and exhaust. Rich D. had the right idea. I'd dry-sump it, and never look back.
As it is, I'm deeply into what I've got. FWIW, Jeff Denham in so-cal is doing modified Type 1 AL bubble cases that he's modified for 4" bores. I'm sure LN would do some custom 101.6 cylinders if you asked. Add some JPM (from Sweden) MS230 heads (for some insane amount of money) and you could have a legit near 3L Type 1. It'd only cost about $20K (insert eye-rolling crazy-man emoticon here). I'm holding the line at what I've got.
Good luck. This is the deep end of the pool, and good information is hard to come by down here.
I'm going the other way from Jim-- I'm in the middle of ADDING a dry-sump system with all of the inherent complications. This change has required a new exhaust, and several other really involved bits 'o fabrication. I'll put up pictures, etc. when I'm done.
I haven't done a good job of documenting what I do to the car, but I'm trying to do better this time around the horn.
To answer your questions, I do have the coatings in the cylinder head on on my piston tops. I do not have the Hoover mods, or the piston squirters, although I would strongly recommend both. Next tear-down, I'll be doing both, along with adding a breather connection to the front of the case in the deck by #3.
I'm running an FK45 cam, and 48 Dellortos. I've been using a 1-3/4" sidewinder with the 2332-- but with the dry-sump conversion, I had a custom 1-5/8" A1 "low-down" merge-type header built this winter for the shorter primaries (they are about 34", compared to the sidewinders 44"). Packaging is a problem with this set-up, especially if you don't want the exhaust sticking out the back (I don't). For both headers, I built custom exhausts out of mandrel bends and mufflers from Summit Racing. I have an electrically operated muffler cut-out valve so I can run through mufflers the majority of the time, or an open exhaust if I'm feeling rowdy. The new exhaust is at the ceramic coater's waiting (the story of my life).
I'm using 911 motor mounts on both the transaxle and the rear of the engine. I made my "mustache" bar for the rear in heavy steel, and I'm re-making it in AL out of box-section tubing. I'm 75% done there.
I monitor all 4 cylinder temps with sensors under the plugs. I'm not dead-even like Jim, but CHT is always under control. I use the Type 4 cooler in the shroud, and an EMPI 96 plate cooler with fan and Mocal bypass thermostat. Oil temps stay under control here in the Midwest (hot/humid summers, but not Texas-hot). I'm using welded VW castings for the heads (extra finning as compared to bigger heads) and a DTM.
It's summer, and I'm still on jack-stands, but I'm making some amazing headway. If I was starting with a totally clean slate, I'd do a Type 4 with 100 mm + bores, and run a Tangerine Racing tri-Y and exhaust. Rich D. had the right idea. I'd dry-sump it, and never look back.
As it is, I'm deeply into what I've got. FWIW, Jeff Denham in so-cal is doing modified Type 1 AL bubble cases that he's modified for 4" bores. I'm sure LN would do some custom 101.6 cylinders if you asked. Add some JPM (from Sweden) MS230 heads (for some insane amount of money) and you could have a legit near 3L Type 1. It'd only cost about $20K (insert eye-rolling crazy-man emoticon here). I'm holding the line at what I've got.
Good luck. This is the deep end of the pool, and good information is hard to come by down here.
Stan and Al, I will try to cover both your questions, Stan already knows a lot on my engine...but here goes :
custom 2332 cc high performance engine, a lot of very high tech stuff like LN Nickasil 94mm cylinders, JE ceramic/graphite coated pistons, Polydyne coated bearings, Shubeck ceramic lifters, CE heads I ported out even further, Autocraft dry sump, Accusump pre-oiler, CB Perf hi deck case, 5.7
custom 2332 cc high performance engine, a lot of very high tech stuff like LN Nickasil 94mm cylinders, JE ceramic/graphite coated pistons, Polydyne coated bearings, Shubeck ceramic lifters, CE heads I ported out even further, Autocraft dry sump, Accusump pre-oiler, CB Perf hi deck case, 5.7
I have an Accusump as well. It's staying.
I also have a couple of 12 AN tubes running from the driver's side valve-covers to the sump. If the dry-sump works like I think it will, I'll move that set-up over to the '64 panel van I've got.
Too much= just enough.
I also have a couple of 12 AN tubes running from the driver's side valve-covers to the sump. If the dry-sump works like I think it will, I'll move that set-up over to the '64 panel van I've got.
Too much= just enough.
The engine combination is the key. I used the very first set of Nickies for a Type 1 &4 and have used more than anyone in the world as we virtually developed the products along with LN Engineering. All of my personal cars except one use Nickies.
When you assemble the engine ONLY listen to the directives of the LN Engineering team- DO NOT treat these components like generic VW components to include the ring gaps and cylinder head torques. Doing so is a way to almost guarantee a failure. Do NOT allow a 35 year VW/ Porsche veteran to assemble the engine his own way using these components.
Its all in the combo and a 2.5 liter T1 requires an effective combination and adequate cylinder heads, without them the engine won't do anything very well except burn gas.
I have a 2.6 liter Type 1 engine ready to assemble, it uses 96.9mm Nickies (uses 97mm OEM Porsche rings) and an 88mm crank along with a TF1 case. Its all new parts and the very last Type 1 engine left on my property, I don't even want to assemble it all and it is for sale. Just needs heads and its all new, been saving parts for it for over a decade. Anyone interested email me jake@rabyenginedevelopment.com
When you assemble the engine ONLY listen to the directives of the LN Engineering team- DO NOT treat these components like generic VW components to include the ring gaps and cylinder head torques. Doing so is a way to almost guarantee a failure. Do NOT allow a 35 year VW/ Porsche veteran to assemble the engine his own way using these components.
Its all in the combo and a 2.5 liter T1 requires an effective combination and adequate cylinder heads, without them the engine won't do anything very well except burn gas.
I have a 2.6 liter Type 1 engine ready to assemble, it uses 96.9mm Nickies (uses 97mm OEM Porsche rings) and an 88mm crank along with a TF1 case. Its all new parts and the very last Type 1 engine left on my property, I don't even want to assemble it all and it is for sale. Just needs heads and its all new, been saving parts for it for over a decade. Anyone interested email me jake@rabyenginedevelopment.com
How it the porosity of the TF1 case? It looked like the castings had issues on the Avery website.
No porosity issues on this one.
Sorry this has taken so long but thanks to both of you. We're talking about very similar motors here, so your observations are very valuable. The motor's an 86mm stroke (contemplating Nickies, so hence all the questions), Berg 42x37 heads and 48IDF's. I've had these parts for a number of years, and although I have an FK8 and FK10, I think the FK45 is the right way to go with this. Stan- do you like the powerband this cam creates, how many miles do you have on the motor and have you noticed accelerated guide wear? Did you sleeve the lifter bores in the case? I've been wondering what rear height I can get away with using a Berg 3 1/2 quart sump, and whether dry sumping is in my future as well. I have plans for an Accusump; where did you guys mount them and what size (1qt? 2?) did each of you use?
Stan- Did you step the header? I'm very interested in hearing how it runs with the shorter primaries, how it fits (how much of the collector hangs out the back) and how you mounted your muffler. The electric muffler cut off valve sounds interesting; we'll definitely have to see pics of that! And seeing how your mustache bar turns out will be worthwhile too.
You are right, if I didn't already own a lot of the parts, a big type 4 would be the way to go. I have thought of selling the new case I have and getting Jeff to prep a case for 101.6mm Nickies but (even after selling the heads I have) coming up with the money for heads that will work isn't in the cards.
Jim- I know what you mean regarding cost; I don't want to think about what it would be to buy what I have at today's prices. When I bought this stuff I never tallied it up (didn't want the boss stumbling on it). And while the Subie idea may be more cost effective, it's not for me. I've been messing with bugs and these motors since 1974 and having a watercooled powerplant in the back wouldn't be right. I do hear what you're saying though... By the way, what do you have for a cam in your beast?
Again, my apologies for all the questions, but as Stan said, its' nice to talk to guys that are playing in this end of the pool... Al
Stan- Did you step the header? I'm very interested in hearing how it runs with the shorter primaries, how it fits (how much of the collector hangs out the back) and how you mounted your muffler. The electric muffler cut off valve sounds interesting; we'll definitely have to see pics of that! And seeing how your mustache bar turns out will be worthwhile too.
You are right, if I didn't already own a lot of the parts, a big type 4 would be the way to go. I have thought of selling the new case I have and getting Jeff to prep a case for 101.6mm Nickies but (even after selling the heads I have) coming up with the money for heads that will work isn't in the cards.
Jim- I know what you mean regarding cost; I don't want to think about what it would be to buy what I have at today's prices. When I bought this stuff I never tallied it up (didn't want the boss stumbling on it). And while the Subie idea may be more cost effective, it's not for me. I've been messing with bugs and these motors since 1974 and having a watercooled powerplant in the back wouldn't be right. I do hear what you're saying though... By the way, what do you have for a cam in your beast?
Again, my apologies for all the questions, but as Stan said, its' nice to talk to guys that are playing in this end of the pool... Al
Allen:
To answer the questions in the order you asked them:
I like the powerband of the FK45. It's got tons of torque at low RPMs, but pulls hard past 6000 RPM. I did sleeve the lifter bores.
I have the two quart Accusump. I mounted it on the tray directly under the deck-lid latch, perpendicular to the crank. It's tucked up and out of the way there. I have the 20 psi solenoid kit, wired on a dash switch powered off the key. Starting sequence is to turn on the ignition, wait for the fuel pump to fill the bowls of the carbs, flip on the Accusump, watch oil pressure come up, crank over the engine.
I did not go with stepped primaries. I got a shorter collector than Tiger normally uses, and held the choke-point at 1-7/8" I/D. I used a 2" short-radius 90 deg bend right at the flange to keep everything under the car, and maintain some velocity at the collection point (I'm hoping this set-up will pretty accurately replicate a long collector, then immediately blew up to 2-1/2 with a long transition.
I'll put up some pictures and a description when I'm done.
As for a 4" bore type 1- I hear you about the heads. I'd love to do this, but I just can't justify the cost of the heads.
To answer the questions in the order you asked them:
I like the powerband of the FK45. It's got tons of torque at low RPMs, but pulls hard past 6000 RPM. I did sleeve the lifter bores.
I have the two quart Accusump. I mounted it on the tray directly under the deck-lid latch, perpendicular to the crank. It's tucked up and out of the way there. I have the 20 psi solenoid kit, wired on a dash switch powered off the key. Starting sequence is to turn on the ignition, wait for the fuel pump to fill the bowls of the carbs, flip on the Accusump, watch oil pressure come up, crank over the engine.
I did not go with stepped primaries. I got a shorter collector than Tiger normally uses, and held the choke-point at 1-7/8" I/D. I used a 2" short-radius 90 deg bend right at the flange to keep everything under the car, and maintain some velocity at the collection point (I'm hoping this set-up will pretty accurately replicate a long collector, then immediately blew up to 2-1/2 with a long transition.
I'll put up some pictures and a description when I'm done.
As for a 4" bore type 1- I hear you about the heads. I'd love to do this, but I just can't justify the cost of the heads.
Allan, I am running a Web-cam 86A. It seems to work pretty well. My plan was to develop a fair amount of torque in lower RPM ranges. It works well so far.....I am runing Webber 48's right at the moment. I really do want to EFI, I have it sitting here but have not even put the car on the road, and it sits with the body in primer and the wiring is about 75% done. Also, need to put residual pressure valves on both sides of the dual master cylinder, as well as finish sealing the gas tank and silly stuff like that. Not a lot of work to run it as a rat rod.....I need to get on it, but other priorities seem to keep getting in the way....need to pull a very difficult to remove AC tube, have the hose replaced and put it back in the 928, now is no time to not have AC in Houston....plus I am painting the house, as well as making a bunch of 550 parking brake kits...and the dog ate my homework too.....
by the way, a place to compare some raw cam data http://www.actionimport.com/Tech_Files/cam_information.htm
by the way, a place to compare some raw cam data http://www.actionimport.com/Tech_Files/cam_information.htm