A goffey little gadget i don't completely understand

I have a problem with my new toy.. How would you calulate torqe and Hp on a motor that gives you 20 ftlbs of push at 36 points per revolution.

My first guess is 720 ft lbs at 3600 rpm That can't be right! Can it?



Would you care to guess what makes it go.

A generation six smallblock Chevy V8?
I give up. But unless it's a tractor engine, sign me up!

I've been playing with magnets for years. had tryed to build one before. I found a guy in germany that made it work and there ia video at Amercan Anti Gravity. Pernendev manetic motors is producing these things over there for sell in generators . I did a search on magnetic motors then found the AAG site then click the mass production link and page down half way down the page and click on the video. After I saw his I new what was wrong and fixed mine.

But these hp numbers are scary no bigger than it is only 3 rotors in 3 rings 36 magnets per rotor and ring count up 720 Torqe lbs His verson is bigger at about 24 inches.
Mine is at about 16 inches across and presenly only 3 rotors or 5 inches deep . You forfet 2 rotors to get motion. and if you leave the stators close it just continues to rev up way over 10 k I stopped it their for fear it might fly all to peaces, but its Dam quiet.

If these numbers are correct and I think they are Just ponder what a 9 rotor unit could do in a bug, with 2160 ft lbs of tourqe. Heck If I devide them by 10 a 9 rotor is still 216 ft lbs which is still way over the stock 72 ft lbs of a stock 1600.

So break out you slide rule and help me out. This just can't be right

Check it out Cory and see if Im way off on the figures at $2450. for the magnet for 3 rotors Im concidring doubling up to 6 rotors for 1440 Ft lbs it would easly fit in my Vw

I've never really messed with magnetism, but I'd think there are a few direct concerns right off -- but feel free to bitch-slap me if I'm off the mark.
How many of the components in your motor will have fields of their own? You'll have a residual moment for each component that carries a field, and that will disrupt the field in your kinetic movement at each moment in your principal rotation.
The effect will be to dampen the overall rotation by each moment times however many others there are, which could wind up draining the anticipated 720, or 1,440 ft-lbs. depending, by orders of magnatude. Even if it's a dim fraction, 36 times 36 times one thousandth the pull (for each point) will add up to whole numbers.
You could well be sapping your torque as you calculated it. Every ferrous component that you charge will have an equal and opposite pull, depending on where it's aimed. If the field isn't eliptical, like in a generator where it's round, it won't get massive force by reversing the polarity, either. You could be right; it may well fall apart.

If you had three decks of thirty-six points each, all aimed inward at 10 degrees of separation and all insulated against each others' fields except on the business ends, you'd have a gasless rotary motor with 108 momentary points.
Lenz' law is another booby-trap. The coil is ideal for making lots of torque, so wrapping all 108 nodes up in copper wire and making a big circuit sounds good for that motive goal -- but "the electromagnetic force induced in an electric circuit always acts in such a direction that the current it drives around a closed circuit produces a magnetic field which opposes the change in magnetic flux," (Lenz).
The induced current will always flow in a direction which opposes any change of magnetic flux, but it does not oppose the magnetic flux itself. You'd have to use a three axis model, and maybe test it with nine contoured magnets first.
I bet the shaft turns to the left on its own, and might contain the force to move water -- like the impeller in a fishtank. If you add enough current to the nine-node model with a rheostat and it goes faster, maybe try adding a pulley and a weighted shaft. Multiply your findings until you have the approximate weight of a car, and you'll have it.
I'm going to do some real resaerch on this. Sounds like a ball.

Just out of curiosity, have you been visiting Esther or Barry lately? Maybe drinking the water at their houses?

Second, you'll need a lot of batteries. There was an experiment done a while back, probably in the UK or in Simi-SoCal somewhere, where a Spyder was packed full of batteries.

[EDIT -- found the car: http://www.renewables.com/ElectricSpyder.htm ]

The throttle would be the easy part. Stopping it would require polarity reversal and brakes, if I have it right. Reversing the polarity of a high-torque electric motor would be an experiment I'd like to watch; I have never seen that, outside of an Overhead Door garage door opener pulling on an apparatus-bay door at the firehouse. In that application, the motor has to be stopped before it can be reversed.
Now, though, I'm really curious. I'll do a search of the SciAm archives, and see what I can dig up. I also have a few issues at the house that deal with electromechanical 'future cars' from the mid-90s, and I'll dig those out to see what they said then.
Neat question. If you can make it work, more power to you. I might suggest sending it to Alan for go-kart testing, first. There has got to be a good engineering school somewhere near him in Pennsylvania, dont'cha think?

Geez, Cory, do you have a degree in physics? I've got 28 years as an engineer and a lot of yer highfalutin' math talk just sails right past me.

Seriously, the magnetic motor thing used to interest me quite a bit. I actually came up with an idea for one in college, but didn't know enough to really complete the design. I'd love to see what's going on in the field (pun intended :-).

Barry and Cory,
Have you seen this?
http://www.leftlanenews.com/2006/07/21/hybrid-mini-offers-640-hp-0-60-in-45-seconds/

Batteries??? it don't need batteries and its not pluged in to anything.

I knew Cory would Be the man Hooptie said it all.

That and the fact it starts on its own when you close ths rings stator are what blew me away a few weeks ago.

I do have concerns about the EM fields and emissions of that on every thing else TVs Cell phones and even my credit cards with magnetic strips what kind of harm this could have If any and is there any way to shield it.

I would hate to get stopped by a state tropper and find out I fried all his electronics with this thing So far the tv and cell apear unafected. And my computer still works But Im still concerned. I banded the rotors with stainless steel that I heated then set in place thats whats holding the magnets inplace .That and some fiberglass resen work. If need more power I can go up to 9 rotors thats all a vw has room for.

Im not even adding in the forces of the rings ,just one of the 3 rotors.
like I said you lose that much Im sure .

To stop or goven it,Just open the rings and it stops or slows on its own I have came up with a throttle control for it from bits and peaces but Due to the danger of a run away. I want to take the time to makee that heavy duty with some kind of a fail safe.



Hey Just Go do the search for Perendev and watch the video. I have copy on my conputer but its to big for my Web space and to big for here.
But I might have my water tested to make sure Im not dreaming. This is Wicked

Barry, My fantasy design from 30 years agon used the magnetic motor at constant speed to run a generator used to power a plain-jane electric drive-train. Wonder if that would solve any control issues. I'd love to see some pictures.

A friend at work started to push me back last summer to try and figure this out. We found the web site last August and started to build one with the intent for home electic power for a 20 k generator . But as the project proceeded it became clear that there is nothing more demanding than a car engine.

By doing one we will learn alot more alot quicker. Ac Propulsion in CA help build the T-0 and the New Tesla electic car, with 8 batteries

If we can do it ths way the car will alot ligher , have a lot less electronics and be more usable. with a unlimited range. and no need for a recharge .

Im not taking any pics until its in the car and it works. perfect. But you can do the search for magnetic motors click on the Amercan Anti-gravity website and click on the mass producion link and a video of one is there. yake note of the rotor spacing and how the magnets are staggered on the rotors Its so simple its silly.

Hey - what is this . . . . Golf cart tech??? What's wrong with 102 octane tech?
Besides this is the "engines" forum. I believe you're lookin' for the "motors" forum?

Welcome to the fuel free era.

Don't mine me if I don't have to pay at the pump. by the end of this year. but for now Im only useing my bug as a guenni pig. if this does what I think it can.

are you talking about the Searl generator?

No it my verson of the Mike Bradly Perendev Magnetic Motor and back in the fall I was as unsure as most sane folks would be but building and seeing is beleiving Videos can be faked But not theirs Mine works and Im sold .

Perendev is sellig generator units over seas and has been banded form North America by the powers that be. They offer 28 k generator with this motor, You have to have at least 2300 cc to run a unit that big, from what I understand.

With out seeing inside one I have no clue as to how many rotors they have installed in their motor / Engine replacements.

Im just trying to figure out what kinda horse power and torqe this thing has got so as to correctly size it for my VW bug and not under do or greatly over due it. IF the 2160 ft lbs of torqe is correct I will surely tear out the tranny in a heart beat. I need correct working figures

I have been told by my brother a diesl mecanic that kinda torqe is like a real big Cummings diesl.

Lane, no. My eduaction is all pretty much in structural engineering, fire science and emergency medicine.
Barry, as they say in the ghetto, that sh** is whacked!
I want to see the working prototype. Let me know when a good time would be, and I'll plan some vacation. It sounds like a turbine generator would be a better torque comparison; the field replaces steam.
Damn. They move ships with that stuff.

Well dang, Im alreay to imbarashed to post pics of it. I rigged it every witch way but lose. Its a fuGly mess

After seeing Hooptie Im to ashamed.

I want to atempt to re work it and for self asurance add at least 3 more rotors. If it is on the low side of the math that will give me at the very least 144 ft lbs of torqe with six rotors . Just add a 0 if its the high side at 1440 . I just will NEVER run it wide open. NEVER In theory it would contine to rev into infinity. or until it went Ka BLANG.

Sizewise It will finish out 16 inches long and 15 inches across with rings closed add 6 inche with them open .

I beleive the producion version simply rotates closed rings in a case in and out of time to govern the rpm. But as hard as it is to close the rings on mine.
I don't see how they could asemble it with all the force it has pushing it back out. If a end cap failed it would shoot it out like magnetic a rail gun.
As a pecaution form that I will over size the new shaft at the fly wheel end so I can bolt on the flywheel . Hopefully that will be enough, to keep it in the car. and not shoot out the back like a missle. As you can See Im tring to run every conceivable senerio .

Rememember Im using part of someone elses ideas here and he has got a patent, I looked it up at the PTO in Arlinton.

You can Build and use it But you can't sell it. Just Thank NAFTA that is what banded it fron the USA Brazil got smart an turned down CAFTA Lucky them.

Give Me six months to hand make some all aluminun rotors that cant shatter at 10,000 rpm or higher.
I want to figure out how to case it up like theirs is so it will be neat to look at. (IN the car)..

I wonder If Westach can make me a tacometer to fit in the 72 Speedo replacing the fuel gauge. That would be a hoot to hide it all in a bug

Here's a REALLY stupid idea.
First, have a seat.

Could you hook it up in an outboard, since it's so small, and see if it has enough torque to move a bass boat?
The gearbox couldn't be simpler, and the velocity would be based on revolutions per minute with no BHP computations -- and you should be able to pick up a dead outboard engine's lower half for about three cents!
You'd be out essentially nothing if it doesn't work!

When I started this little project i have to addmit i did not think it would work at all. but my friend donated the magnets and i had to see it through for his sake. The rotors are plywood . I'd be more at ease with metal rotors.

Im not going to monify the car very little. I may decide to sell it after I build the coupe . And swap the engines out

YES I Still want the Coupe

Finally A confirmation from Mike Bradley And Yes He is P.O.ed over NAFTA.

But my numbers are Not off and the low side is correct. He also thanked me for being a spokes person for his cause.

He told me also the torque will increase with rpms and warned me about rotor flex problems he had with the first 2 protypes. So i will have to go with aluminum.

Ok here the deal. as a spokes person for Pernedev, i will have a mission. To change our goverments mind.
I can think Of no better way to do that than to plan a coast to coast race with as much media attenchion as possible but for now stay under the radar. untill the car is ready i could even build it to fit my el camino . But we both know what makes a classey intrance. in the public eye.
So Im holding you to that vacation idea as my driver My eyes and nerves are almost shot. And i want to get there in one peace starting a the coast of NC and heading west.

So now you understand why I need the thing to be very tough and hard to break, and tamper proof. And fast enought to make real good time on the road.

Im Not Nathanel Jackson. But I like the Idea. of how he drove the first coast to coast trip In the Whinton Flyer In 1903 or so and drove his way into the history books. They could never deni this complishment.

Barry, your comment about the tach got me thinking. Back in the 60's when Chrysler had some of their gas turbine cars on the road in private hands, a Detroit newspaper guy took a test drive. With the vehicle at a dead stop, he was very vivid about his outright fear of dropping the gear lever from Neutral into Drive when the tach was reading 10,000 RPM (the idle speed of the gas turbine). Of course, the secret was all in the gearing, but I thought the public perception was pretty interesting.

I have seen that car. And have alway wanted to take it for a spin. It had a reduced drive pre transmision side.

I don't intend to ever tack it up. I intent to restrict it to 7,000. Over designing the rotors is for safty.
I intentend to put a T3 automatic in the bug and 144 lbs of torque is in the bigger 4 cly. range I haven't even calulated the Hp yeat.

Not buying fuel and having unlimited range will make me a very happy camper.
I just hope it doesn't fall on deaf ears when the time comes. and the Oil Lobby is restricted from their monoply. so my efforts won't be in vain.
I've started my blue prints and they will be avalible to any one that wants a copy just for postage. I figure the more that know how it works the harder it will be to stop the word from getting out. even if I get beat to the finish line, We as a country will WIN BIG.

Is it just me or is Barry sounding to sound like a mad scientist. I hope it all works...it sounds awesome! Just don't let it kill you.

I hope not . If I can build a D replica and not get hurt setting the cab by myself, I can do this.
If you have seen the video take note the outer ring magnets count 36 (dido) in the rotors, Are all set at 45 degrees. apposing poles face one another the outer ring magnet are horzonaly alined on all rings. the rotors are staggered in thirds useing the first rotor as the guide between the first rotors magnets. you lose the force of 2 rotors.

Picing the materials and construction techneques is goning to be a tricky thing. Do i make the new rotors from billet or have them cast in aluminum. Or do i make them from stainless steel halfs with the magnet mounts welded to the rims with a spool in the center for bolting the m together. Having a aluminum band that is installed like a old wagon wheel rim heated then slide it on to lock in the magnets as it scrinkes in tight. around the rotor. is critcal.

Will that hold or fail with stress. to many questions only one anwser tack it up over 10,K and hold it for ten minutes and use a remote control with tack , far far away, Crash helmet opional

I do wish i had a dyno. when I do stuff like this.

The rotors are 11.46 across 1/2 x 1/2 magnets 20 lbs force each. your fighting 720 ft lbs , With 36 of them on just one ring when you atempt to close it.
6 rings will be 1440 ft lbs even more if i combine the rotor and ring forces. But that drops some after rotation starts.
with a servo motor turning a 3 ton traller type jack converted in to a govener / throttle is going to be mean. and slow.That will need rethinking to improve it. A trunk pull down motor to pull the fail safe release. as a back up.

All this will have to be tested over and over an over. untill. I can't find any more weak points.

I will order the magnets this week and, it will be expencive like buying 2 years worth of gas. But still not like buying a T-4 . If this works very well I'll sell my T-4

We are talking more Horse power just shy of 2800 cc.s. thats a guess-a-ment.

Good luck, Herr Doktor.

Danke Herr Cory De Drake.

If I don't like it on a direct drive To a Vw Automatic tranny. I will then concider the 12 to 1 electric car type gear box. It's real small compared to any vw tranny.

If a ac electric motor can do it I don't see why this can't as well You don't even shift it . Just has a park lock.

I may have a reverse problem however.

You cant run this thing backwards. Maybe some kind of small reversing motor just to back up a little to get in parking spots.

I'd rather make it work as stock as possible. So for now It a wv tranny


Good Tag Herr Cory

BLH wrote;
I will order the magnets this week and, it will be expencive like buying 2 years worth of gas. But still not like buying a T-4 . If this works very well I'll sell my T-4
--------------------------------

no one's "gone there yet" so here goes ...
If this works, I'll sell MY T-4, make a- HOUSE SIZED mag motor connect to a genny and start my own power generation utility. Hmmm, early retirement in Maui sounds good!
DT

They sell Units NOW in Germany On lease consinments 12,000 Euro.s and a 5 year lease to own agreement but you can.t buy them.

I Know it works as a genrator But making it work in a car will be harder.

By the way The oil cartel blocked US sells , SO talk to your congress about the money under the table

We live in in a crazy time.

With all the talk on global warming and the danger of a world wide katstropy that is becomming more evedent. Remember the ice sheet that cracked at the north pole just after Christmas. That is Not suposed to ever,never,ever happen .

BUT It Has!

Now look at the wacky weather were getting. any questions Al Gore may be a bore. But he got it right. so he's of the hook .He Did try. the rest is up to Us we HAVE to stop burning fossel fuels and convert .

Even if this thing runs like a skaulded dog. We have Our work cut out for us. againt big money

Update . The aluminum is here and is being machined by my brother. He wants to build one as well.

The magnets are also on the their way. I do have a little concern of degrading in these Neodium Boron magnets . They claim ,they can withstand extreme field interaction with only a one per cent drop in 10 years.

If this is true Im good to go. and hope to have it together for testing in march.

Please keep us updated Barry. I'm interested in building one to power my house.

Oh yea !!
Im nine years from retirement.
If I can get free elecrticty,and even a small check back to put on the grocerys, have free heat and a fuel free car to putter around in I,ll be a very happy camper.

Im reluctant to put it in the Speedster D I like the flat 4 noise it makes when I go under a overpass or when Im on a long bridge. Even thou its plan stock the basaf style exhaust makes it Kackel.

If the climate gets much worse I will but I wont like it even if it is more powerful. These things are quiet all you here are the bearings and maybe a lose magnet rattle here and there. If I add a blowwer fan for the heat system maybe that will give me a Knight Ryder sound?

( Well It mignt help?) WHO knows? In a re worked modernized 356 coupe it might go over better.

I will urethane the magnets in the new motor. you dont want them to rattle or vibrate and crack. then band the rotors so they handle higer rpms, incase i get curious and brave.

I have all the parts now ecept for the bearings. We are still undisided on which ones to use but hope to have the answer this week from a specialist. Everything is machining up well. and I have a vw engine running stand ready to receive it.

Terry! I have seen the Mini C conversion.. Have you heard about the new MG hybrid That Sir Rickard Branson is going to sponcer.

I hope this car will catch their eye and maybe the MG might be a good canidate.

Well Im back to square-1.
I've been runing the first motor A lot lately ,And have been useing a old John deer mecanical tach to keep up with its operation I set it at 2500 or so and let It run for a week. and the the rpms are dropping of a little every day. at 4 days it had dropped about 450 .

Its now down to about 1000 . So the magnets will degrade. I have been taking with several suppliers this week and nothing beter is on the market these were top of the line magnets.
The good news is the magnet company will take back the unused magnets and only 6 rotors have been cut from the alumium stocks we have.

But the bad news is the project is scraped .

Im back to my old very complicated steam turbine project. On the brite side , I made some new friends and Now have some real enginnering asistance, with my older project. Right now pass or fails its in their hands
I presented it to them Friday,and they seem very inerested but careful. but agreed to crunch the numbers on it which is a very good sign.

I'll know more by the end of the week. and its a free service. offered by a retired engineer who offered his asistance. and he had heard of the 1972 Carter steam car as project in Popular Science. it was type 3 wagon propane heated steam car.
He liked my microwave bolier idea. I also showed him patents on the Black Micowave boiler. from some recent searches I had done. And he did sign a disclosue. He calmly said I don't want to get your hopes up but it looks promising.
So now I feel like Im stuck on a powder keg, staring at the fuse.