A(nother) Bridge Too Far

Stan (and Ray), that is exactly it.

This car started working out for me when I began accepting it for what it is, rather than trying to make it into something it wasn't ever going to be.

Small, light, simple, mechanical, it's a 'momentum' car. And I'd never quite understood just what that means.

It means if you don't pay attention to where the torque curve ends, if you don't get the revs up before you get to the hill, if you don't shift down before you get to the corner, if you pick the wrong line through that corner, you ain't gonna have any momentum to speak of.

The car's a handful to keep tracking straight down a rough road at speed.

The motor heats up and cools down as it gets more or less work to do. It's one of your jobs, as driver-in-chief, to watch the temp gauge and not give the engine more work than it can handle.

You could spend a whole lot trying to fix all of that. You could make the power and suspension and creature comforts more like a modern car. But this ain't your father's Oldsmobile. Or your wife's Camry.

If you let go of your ideas of what a sports car is and try to learn what a sports car WAS, this car has a lot to teach. There was a knack to being quick in those old machines. It was a lot harder than it is now. It took some skills that have almost been forgotten.

But on the right road, on the right day, for reasons that are sometimes impossible to explain, this can be the best car there is - if you give it half a chance.

Sacto Mitch posted:

 

Here's a video of a small shop in southern California that installed electric drive in a new Vintage Speedster roller chassis.

Their only business is converting existing cars to electric drivetrains, and they made this video to promote that business. So, they're likely to gloss over many problems and fine-tuning issues. Still, they make it pretty clear that this is no process for the faint of heart.

There is A LOT of custom fabrication, electrical engineering, and software development involved if you want a result that works like you would expect a modern car to work.

One thing they mention only in passing, but which is a major issue with electric vehicles if you want to charge them in anything like a reasonable amount of time is heat management. Charging the batteries quickly generates large amounts of heat and can damage the batteries if charge rates are not managed correctly in software. There are also major heat issues in the normal operation of the car that must be dealt with in software.

Building one of these on your own looks like a much bigger task than what Stan is taking on in his new drivetrain.

 

 

There are new batteries entering the market.

The new batteries are cheaper, charge quicker and safe.

They are not lithium based, they are carbon based.

I will be waiting for these new batteries to enter the market on a commercial level.

@Stan Galat that winched-up bike rack track is the bomba and epitomizes your superior ingenuity and terminal psychosis. It is brilliant overkill and I am in awe.

As you say, most people would simply live with it.

There are some who would have mounted J hooks up the wall a little higher than they were comfortable with and just manually lifted their bikes to them after each ride (or on occasion as time passed).

There are folks, such as myself, who might have rigged up something cheep and clever and slightly dodgy using nylon straps with cam buckles. 

But then there's you. The elite. 

I bow my head with great respect.

Sacto Mitch posted:

 Stan (and Ray), that is exactly it.

This car started working out for me when I began accepting it for what it is, rather than trying to make it into something it wasn't ever going to be.

Small, light, simple, mechanical, it's a 'momentum' car. And I'd never quite understood just what that means.

It means if you don't pay attention to where the torque curve ends, if you don't get the revs up before you get to the hill, if you don't shift down before you get to the corner, if you pick the wrong line through that corner, you ain't gonna have any momentum to speak of.

The car's a handful to keep tracking straight down a rough road at speed.

The motor heats up and cools down as it gets more or less work to do. It's one of your jobs, as driver-in-chief, to watch the temp gauge and not give the engine more work than it can handle.

You could spend a whole lot trying to fix all of that. You could make the power and suspension and creature comforts more like a modern car. But this ain't your father's Oldsmobile. Or your wife's Camry.

If you let go of your ideas of what a sports car is and try to learn what a sports car WAS, this car has a lot to teach. There was a knack to being quick in those old machines. It was a lot harder than it is now. It took some skills that have almost been forgotten.

But on the right road, on the right day, for reasons that are sometimes impossible to explain, this can be the best car there is - if you give it half a chance.

That's really sage advise, Mitch... but unfortunately I just can't take it quite that far. It would be better if I could. The car (as it sat pre-campfire) was ticking all the boxes, including having the ability to travel long distances. We drove it to NC in the fall of '17.

It was very fast, comfortable (for both Jeanie and me), and interesting mechanically.

The problem for me is that I came to understand that it couldn't do everything consistently enough, and reliability (and sadly and boringly, comfort) have become more important than other most of the other attributes at this point (at least within the parameters that I've dictated for myself). There will have to be other cars that can tick other boxes-- cars meant to ride on a flatbed or in an enclosed trailer from the shop to the foothills. Cars strung more highly.

I know there's real wisdom in just letting the car be everything that it wants to be, but I really can't do that, and neither can very many people. I would respectfully submit that neither can you. There is a continuum everyone falls along, with the drum-braked single-port 1500 on one end and a car like Bob Carley's on the other.

There's a sweet-spot somewhere in-between, a piece of real-estate that may differ from man to man. Most everybody can find it with a 2110 and disc brakes. You needed the 5-speed to find it. I ended up taking something too far (again), mostly to prove to myself that it could be done. This (latest) setup is an attempt to step it back to what I hope will be the edge, but not over a line I'd rather not cross.

Sacto Mitch posted:

 

Stan (and Ray), that is exactly it.

This car started working out for me when I began accepting it for what it is, rather than trying to make it into something it wasn't ever going to be.

Small, light, simple, mechanical, it's a 'momentum' car. And I'd never quite understood just what that means.

It means if you don't pay attention to where the torque curve ends, if you don't get the revs up before you get to the hill, if you don't shift down before you get to the corner, if you pick the wrong line through that corner, you ain't gonna have any momentum to speak of.

The car's a handful to keep tracking straight down a rough road at speed.

The motor heats up and cools down as it gets more or less work to do. It's one of your jobs, as driver-in-chief, to watch the temp gauge and not give the engine more work than it can handle.

You could spend a whole lot trying to fix all of that. You could make the power and suspension and creature comforts more like a modern car. But this ain't your father's Oldsmobile. Or your wife's Camry.

If you let go of your ideas of what a sports car is and try to learn what a sports car WAS, this car has a lot to teach. There was a knack to being quick in those old machines. It was a lot harder than it is now. It took some skills that have almost been forgotten.

But on the right road, on the right day, for reasons that are sometimes impossible to explain, this can be the best car there is - if you give it half a chance.

 

Mitch,

   Perfectly put. So many people are trying to make these cars what they aren’t. Let them takes us back to what driving was like in the fifties. Mine takes me back every time I jump in and love it for what it is. Sparse, basic, under powered but so damn fun I can’t stay out of it. I feel you get it.

Tom(Gotno356)

To more clearly define my path, I would have to say that 1600N engine is not a fast car. I tried 1835cc and had a 2110cc for 5 years in my 2004 IM.  I liked it but it lacked in a lot of areas. 

I then tried to make a mental list of what would like, to be able to make it a car I could go on longer trips as a highway cruiser.  

I think this process is what Stan most clearly elucidated.  He advises that every envelope of features and power range and car types will require ultimately some form of acceptance if you want to stay in the hobby but you can mitigate your chances or at least be somewhat more satisfied if your expectations come with realistic goals based on your experiences and what others have accomplished with their cars.  Remembering that it is near impossible to try all permutations or even try some of these cars so your dreaming most times of this illusionary car. 

So I realized that seats were a real issue AC and more power and of course the 5 speed, dual rads, and a large trunk with spare and finally some sort of reasonable on going repair and support cost and please Henry no 6cyl P at this point anyway. 

I considered a Subie-6 maybe but that was not in the cards for IM. 

Experienced builder he was, he was more comfortable doing a turbo 4cyl or NA subie but my car became the first with a subie tranny dual rads, larger gas tank, and big trunk.  I got involved in the R&D and helped to source somethings that I wanted.  Retro-sound system and bluetooth telephone is a help to make it more enjoyable as well. 

So i got much more of a car.  Actually it is light years ahead with full 911 front end, sway bars etc etc. 

In conclusion, this is really a nice car to drive, still has some nuances of a hand built car still has some tech that is 50 y.o. and some 2009 tech but you can just drive it with minimal issues.  

BTW I even installed Cruise control myself after IM were gracious to send me a schematic for the ECU cruise system.

I think I got pretty close to the max that the hobby can give me with my wish list, without much more rear weigh and the switch launch of some turbo setups. 

The 5 speed allows me to row through the gears as as a full subie there is less mismatch between engine and tranny powertrain. 

All in all I still had to accept the nuances of a new skin, old tech, new tech setup but I do not have to live with the 911 click click click I am doing a 100mph automaticity. 

I think it is the automaticity that is boring me out of my tree with DD. 

Enough said. 

I am typing this by the pool  

@edsnova,

Regarding the bike rack: I had already tried the dodgy ropes and cams set-up. Mrs. Galat declared it unacceptable, and she was right. She cannot lift her bike past about 2 ft off the ground, which does precisely nothing to get them out of the way. The ropes-'n-pulleys looked like an accident waiting to happen (and as you know, if there's a way to maim myself or break things, I tend to find it).

Aside from living with it (which really isn't such a bad alternative), this was the only real way. 

My 30 y/o son saw it and remarked that it is a distillation of everything that is right and wrong with his father in one device.

"There are new batteries entering the market.   The new batteries are cheaper, charge quicker and safe.  They are not lithium based, they are carbon based.   I will be waiting for these new batteries to enter the market on a commercial level."

Question: Does Carbon burn?  

Last time I checked it burns at a higher temp than wood. Just saying. 

I was just happy to get heat in my car after fifteen years without it.......   

I hear you Gordon, real heat is a must if you live somewhat north.  Seat heaters are absolutely great too.  

Aren't you glad we skipped steam in a speedster your back seat would have had to be the coal storage area and just in front of the stick shift the burn pot door for you to throw in coal with your right hand while you steer with your left. 

Just kidding, burning coal would be awesome heat though

Wait, how did we get from different expectations for our cars to coal-fired cabin heat and bicycle hoists? You can't leave here for an hour without everything going pear-shaped.

Stan and Ray, what we've got here is three drivers, three different cars, and three very different budgets. Three examples of how these cars can be different tokes for different folks.

Maybe the reason I'm happy as a clam with my lesser Speedster is where I live. I'm close to the roads I like to drive on. I will drive on the freeway if forced to by circumstances, but usually don't have to for more than 20 or 30 miles. For me, the interstate is a means to an end.

If I needed to spend long hours at 80 mph just to reach the Valhalla exit, I'd probably have to completely rethink how my car is set up. And recalculate just how much I wanted to invest in it. Most reasonable people would probably be thinking about another type of car altogether. But who ever said we are reasonable people?

My car will do 70-75 mph on the freeway and not complain too much. I do hit 80-85 merging with traffic sometimes, and have even gotten to 90 in an unthinking moment. But the car is much happier at 60-65. There, it just hums along quietly, as happy with the day as I am.

So, the car has changed my perspective a bit. It's woken me up to the joys of puttering along the back roads, not obsessed with getting to the next corner as quickly as possible. I've found parts of this state I sort of knew were there, but probably wouldn't have otherwise discovered.

The more I drive this car, the more it teaches me.

Were you commenting on the road speed or the body speed or age when you said 70-75   

More to the point for around town and little highway any car will do I would think.  On version 2 or 3 you might choose a different car of course according to your budget. But in reality while budget comes into play we were not really talking about that factor much even if it has a bearing on it. I have seen a lot of high end cars in driveways where the owner is not really the owner.

If you nearing 85 mph, oh I meant age you might blow it all on one last chance to go where you have never gone. Don't they list cars here where the owner has departed for greener pastures...  You know but then you will have to change your drive to a Triumph.

You guys crack me up !  I have always thought I was a little weird and had a tendency  to obliquely go off doing things that interested me. When I saw what Stan did for storing his bicycles I was absolutely sure of why I like this forum so much and the unique individuals who are on here. I totally relate to everyone on here in some way or another. I almost feel like I joined a "secret society" in which I can comfortably share my wild assed ideas and projects.  Thanks Stan, for posting your bicycle lift.  Here's mine !  I don't have bicycles any more but the electric winch is still up there (and still operating) in the attic. It's attached to the garage roof rafters. The ceiling door is now used for better access to things on the opposite side of my fold-down stairs. ( I don't have to crawl over a bunch of stuff to get to things on that side. ).      Bruce

2 of you whackos with electric bike lifts in their garages- I love it! Our bikes are hung from the ceiling by hooks. Very mundane...

OK, maybe we are defined more by our bike lifts than by our cars.

Stan, what we've got here is two bikers, two different bike lifts, and two very different budgets.

I have only modest expectations for a bike lift.

I went with the store-bought rope-and-pulleys contraption. Six wood screws into the rafter and done. One bike at a time, but the slower pace lets me better appreciate parts of my garage I might have otherwise overlooked.

I guess if I had to hoist the bike more than eight feet in the air or do two at a time, I'd probably have to completely rethink how my bike lift is set up.

Maybe the reason I'm happy as a clam with my lesser bike lift is the agreement I have with my wife. She leans her bike against the garage shelving when returning from a ride and notifies me there's a bike that needs hoisting.

She doesn't have to deal with ropes or pulleys, and I get to experience how bikes were hoisted back in the early days of bicycle storage.

The more I hoist her bike manually, the more it teaches me.

You must of painted the ceiling so that you could spend more time looking up, an hoisting make you look up more often.

Hoisting one right about now.

Stan, thank you for going on this adventure so I don't have to. I admire the extent you are going to do this RIGHT. I can't even imagine how happy your customers are when you show up to fix one of their problems. 

Good luck and continue with pics!

Mike

IaM-Ray posted:

"There are new batteries entering the market.   The new batteries are cheaper, charge quicker and safe.  They are not lithium based, they are carbon based.   I will be waiting for these new batteries to enter the market on a commercial level."

Question: Does Carbon burn?  

Last time I checked it burns at a higher temp than wood. Just saying. 

If you don’t know anything about this technology it’s better if you simply do some research before adding your 2 bobs worth...!

Ouch! 

Highlander356 posted:

IaM-Ray posted:

"There are new batteries entering the market.   The new batteries are cheaper, charge quicker and safe.  They are not lithium based, they are carbon based.   I will be waiting for these new batteries to enter the market on a commercial level."

Question: Does Carbon burn?  

Last time I checked it burns at a higher temp than wood. Just saying. 

If you don’t know anything about this technology it’s better if you simply do some research before adding your 2 bobs worth...!

Baaaaaaaaa that made me laugh... My comment was in jest of course, but since you asked.

While it is a new technology it is not any denser so you get the same capacity but faster charging, as well it seems to be less prone to heating up so it may be less prone to fires but, It is not yet a solution.  So if that is your cup a tea go for it, or rather wait for it.  Does that ad up to 2 bobs.? :0) 

Bike lift?

We don’ need no steenkin bike lift!

I got my own bike pahkin space!   I use “Smaht Pahk!”   (Until I hear: “HEY!  Get that damn bike outa my way to the freezah!)   

Bike lift.   You’se guys got too much free time on your hands.  (Although, Jeanie sounds a lot like my wife.  You sure she’s not Irish?)

BTW, Stan.......   Very clever solution!

Forget both carbon batteries and the regular lithium kind. I saw a TV show about it and it seemed to me that dilithium was the future. 

Seriously, there appears to be some incremental progress on batteries that will show up in cars over the next 4-5 years. I recently read what seemed to be a credible article on a breakthrough electric motor that 'might' eliminate the need for a transmission and give 2x-4x improvement in torque. Limited market availability for scooters in the next year or so and who knows after that.

We still plug our main car - an old 2013 LEAF into our house's 240v charging station powered by the 40 solar panels on our roof. It's paid off long ago and we live on a small island, so it works for now. I don't see anything that would make me want to spend money in the near future.

In your case you don't have far to go and you can't get lost.

Most E-car cases are for in town commute not for long distances.  Did you see the video on the guy who crossed the USA with a Tesla?  It took forever and he waited forever for it to charge. 

Everybody thinks I'm a universal EV hater, but I'd love an electric work truck... as long as it had a 300 mi range (in the winter, with full heat running) and could recharge overnight. Trucks are money sinks and the bane of my business existence. We've got one in the shop now, where it's been for at least 30% of this winter.

If I lived on a small island with lots of sunlight, I'd think pretty hard about it as well. If I had a 45 mi commute that never varied, I'd probably do it.

We're just not there as a primary vehicle, and I doubt we ever will be. As a "fun" vehicle, an EV speedster wouldn't be my cup of tea.

But if Highlander wants to give it a whirl-- I say, "go for it"... as long as he knows going in that it isn't going to cheap or easy. 

I agree. Battery electric cars/trucks are not right for everyone's situation or tastes. 

Mike

I also believe that it might be fine as your second or third car or if your quarantined to the city so to speak going to work on your daily commute for short distances but for any serious distances or a large family it would be pretty impractical.   

My friend, Scott, has been around as long as me, and riding bicycle just as long, too.  He’s 6’ 5” with loooong legs and has been developing hardening of the arteries over the past four years (pro’bly longer, but that’s when he first noticed the symptoms).

 A week ago he took delivery of a Trek E-Bike road bike so he can continue to ride whilst not over-stressing his heart.  We both see that as a very good thing.  Gets him out of the house so his wife don’t kill him for being underfoot, and he might finally, finally beat me up a hill.  

I don’t know when electric cars will be the thing, but an ebike makes a lot of sense.   For Scott, that is, and I guess for us old bike riders that need a little help.  

Who was that guy on an island near Seattle or Vancouver who converted a speedster to electric?

For me, the battery range is the primary issue. Anything over 200 miles would be great (our LEAF gets around 100 miles).  The Speedster conversion approaches I've looked at get around 100 miles range, too. The low end torque is unparalleled, but there's just not a lot of room for batteries in our car, so for now, range is limited.

  @Michael Pickett  Been in your extended front yard for a week, over in Ko’olina.  I see why you live here.  The wx is WAAY better than SoCal!  Also shopped at Bailey’s Aloha Shirts.  Even more amazing than Leonard’s Bakery!  Gotta come back!

Back home tomorrow.  Really gonna miss this....... But oh that jet lag!

Gordon Nichols posted:

  @Michael Pickett  Been in your extended front yard for a week, over in Ko’olina.  I see why you live here.  The wx is WAAY better than SoCal!  Also shopped at Bailey’s Aloha Shirts.  Even more amazing than Leonard’s Bakery!  Gotta come back!

Back home tomorrow.  Really gonna miss this....... But oh that jet lag!

Glad you made it over here. We completed a trip back to NC last week and I'm nearly recovered. That just means you need to plan longer trips. 

Conceptually, I like the hybrid electric cars that use a small engine (a turbine maybe?) to self-charge when needed. 

If batteries can be made light and compact enough (they're basically there) without overheating (not quite yet) and cheaply enough to work in the market (??) you could turn over the whole fleet in about 10 years and save 80-90 percent of the of the current hydrocarbon emissions burned on the road while maintaining or extending present day automotive range and potentially reducing maintenance time and costs substantially. 

But, as Stan often points out, the energy has to come from somewhere. You'd still need to convert the power grid to like 95 percent wind/solar/nuke with just a few gas peakers (and maybe vast arrays of these batteries?) to manage load.

AFAIK it could be done right now—and should be, given what we know about how carbon emissions affect the climate—but it's not like I or anyone else could just snap our fingers and make it so. 

mppickett posted:

For me, the battery range is the primary issue. Anything over 200 miles would be great (our LEAF gets around 100 miles).  The Speedster conversion approaches I've looked at get around 100 miles range, too. The low end torque is unparalleled, but there's just not a lot of room for batteries in our car, so for now, range is limited.

check out this new technology 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5C7a2hVFHS8

edsnova posted:

Conceptually, I like the hybrid electric cars that use a small engine (a turbine maybe?) to self-charge when needed. 

If batteries can be made light and compact enough (they're basically there) without overheating (not quite yet) and cheaply enough to work in the market (??) you could turn over the whole fleet in about 10 years and save 80-90 percent of the of the current hydrocarbon emissions burned on the road while maintaining or extending present day automotive range and potentially reducing maintenance time and costs substantially. 

But, as Stan often points out, the energy has to come from somewhere. You'd still need to convert the power grid to like 95 percent wind/solar/nuke with just a few gas peakers (and maybe vast arrays of these batteries?) to manage load.

AFAIK it could be done right now—and should be, given what we know about how carbon emissions affect the climate—but it's not like I or anyone else could just snap our fingers and make it so. 

The electric Sports car technology has come a long way.

Check out this link:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5C7a2hVFHS8

edsnova posted:

Conceptually, I like the hybrid electric cars that use a small engine (a turbine maybe?) to self-charge when needed. 

If batteries can be made light and compact enough (they're basically there) without overheating (not quite yet) and cheaply enough to work in the market (??) you could turn over the whole fleet in about 10 years and save 80-90 percent of the of the current hydrocarbon emissions burned on the road while maintaining or extending present day automotive range and potentially reducing maintenance time and costs substantially. 

But, as Stan often points out, the energy has to come from somewhere. You'd still need to convert the power grid to like 95 percent wind/solar/nuke with just a few gas peakers (and maybe vast arrays of these batteries?) to manage load.

AFAIK it could be done right now—and should be, given what we know about how carbon emissions affect the climate—but it's not like I or anyone else could just snap our fingers and make it so. 

We agree nearly 100% here, @edsnova. The pure EV gets all the love (and credits), but it is the plug-in series hybrid that has the actual chance of working in the real world. If we removed the range limitation, electric starts to make a lot of sense for service and delivery trucks especially. 

The wind/solar/nuke grid will take more than a few gas peakers, but just accepting that it's going to take nuclear power to get to a grid that is less reliant on carbon is a huge step, and one that most people just refuse to believe. Nuclear scares the crap out of most people, but there's no other way to get where they say they want to go.

We all need to face the fact that oil is running out, by 2030 there will be no more oil.

Electric Vehicle are the future.

Tick...Tock...!

Highlander356 posted:

We all need to face the fact that oil is running out, by 2030 there will be no more oil.

I'd love to make a wager on that, Highlander. It'd be my only good investment so far this year.

I've been buying oil stocks for 5 years, because I know the world needs it and it seems super-cheap to me (you know, given that we are running out in 10 years, etc.). But oil is in a price free-fall (off 20% this AM, and trading at under $30/bbl), precisely because we have a glut of it in the market. Right now, Transocean (the largest offshore drilling company in the world) is trading at about 2% of it's value 6 years ago. Exxon/Mobil, BP, Royal Dutch Shell, Chevron, etc. are all in the toilet, down 30% +/- because people have a virus in China.

We have no idea what the future holds-- but in proven reserves, we have enough petroleum for the next 50 years (at a minimum), and more if we conserve it. If we continue to find ways to extract it (shale oil, etc.) there is no end in sight. Wagering that we still have PLENTY of oil in 2030 (or 2040, or 2050) seems like a sucker bet.

... but I'm wondering-- you keep posting about EVs like a zealous recent convert. Do you own one, even as your second or third vehicle? Are you making progress towards converting your speedster, or just dreaming? You have a car and an opinion (which you feel strongly enough about to post on multiple threads), have you taken the car to the Australian EV experts?

Let us know how the progress is coming. 

Highlander:

We have a TV show here in the states called "Mountain Men" wherein one of the featured characters powers his truck with a wood burning system. I suggest you consider that alternative as well. 

I realize that you have had some severe fires that burned a lot of your trees, but maybe this alternative would work for you, or build a small nuclear reactor in the frunk.

How about a steam engine.......pedal car......just coast downhill?

Highlander:

Do you recognize the difference between providing evidence and just saying "Tick Tock"?

Oh wait, the evidence came from an HVAC mechanic........never mind, we all know that mechanics are numb from the neck up.

Come on man, don't go down this path. We've had enough of this lately.

Highlander, go back under your rock, or at least go back to your own thread.

We get it, there are no good mechanics in Australia. We're going to run out of oil, and the sky is falling.

Now, do us a favor and just shut it.

This thread is about one man's journey with his IM. Hint, it's not about you.