A(nother) Bridge Too Far

I guess I have accepted the limits of my Speedster as well. By that I mean I haven't pushed it there by any means, but based on input from a lot of you, I can see what I think is the limit of the cars potential.

My wife says that I'm one guy when behind the wheel of our other cars, and a different guy when I hop in the Speedster. Driving the Speedster is always a transformative experience.

One is the mundane experience of getting from here to there and back. The other is an exhilarating adventure, even if it's just to go get milk.

One is predictable and without challenges or issues. The other is unpredictable and anything might happen.

I take the Speedster whenever I can.

Highlander356 posted:

edsnova posted:

Conceptually, I like the hybrid electric cars that use a small engine (a turbine maybe?) to self-charge when needed. 

If batteries can be made light and compact enough (they're basically there) without overheating (not quite yet) and cheaply enough to work in the market (??) you could turn over the whole fleet in about 10 years and save 80-90 percent of the of the current hydrocarbon emissions burned on the road while maintaining or extending present day automotive range and potentially reducing maintenance time and costs substantially. 

But, as Stan often points out, the energy has to come from somewhere. You'd still need to convert the power grid to like 95 percent wind/solar/nuke with just a few gas peakers (and maybe vast arrays of these batteries?) to manage load.

AFAIK it could be done right now—and should be, given what we know about how carbon emissions affect the climate—but it's not like I or anyone else could just snap our fingers and make it so. 

The electric Sports car technology has come a long way.

Check out this link:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5C7a2hVFHS8

 

That was six years ago. Looked/looks promising but the technology still isn't here. There are options available but they are expensive. More expensive than it's worth if you ask me. But if you want to continue waiting go ahead. Me? Well, I'm going to drive my Speedster today and the next day and the next day and so on and so on. You can sit and watch your Speedster go nowhere or you can do what everyone suggested and find an air-cooled mechanic at one of the dozens of air-cooled clubs in Australia so you can drive it. Or you can wait until battery technology improves enough to build yourself an electric Speedster. 

Is your first name George?  Are you also from Green land is the question? 

Back to our regularly scheduled program:

I was cleaning out the shop cabinets this weekend, and found an IRS super-diff I forgot I had. I called Anthony this AM, but a new one is only about 2x what the shipping would be on this one, so I'll just keep it. We've reached critical mass in the garage. I have lost track of what I have in the stash, which is pretty pathetic. I'm thinking a sale is in order.

Anyhow, here's what the gearing will be. I wish the spacing was inverted (with the narrower spreads in the upper gears, but this is as good as I can get with what is available.

Anthony is hoping to get this back to me within the next couple of weeks.

Thank Ferdinand that you switched the channel. So how much difference will there be between your new diff and your old one?

Hey Stan, that bike rack could be duplicated for ceiling storage or spare parts bin.  

mppickett posted:

Thank Ferdinand that you switched the channel. So how much difference will there be between your new diff and your old one?

The new one is just a super-diff, which is pretty common on hi-po Type 1 transaxle builds. It also is a step back from the edge.

The ZF is rare like hen's teeth. VW had them built for about 20 minutes in the early 70s (for use in the "Thing" in non-USA markets, unless I'm mistaken). I waited for more than a 18 months to find one, and snapped this one up on TheSamba as soon as it became available a few years back. I think I had to give $1500 or some such thing. Mine is worn out (as per Anthony). Stock, they came with metal discs and clutches, but there is a guy (Paul Guard) who has a rebuild kit available for them using friction discs and some other special whatnot. The mystery is if what I have will be rebuildable, as not all are.

If it is, the plan is to use the shards of the true cross ZF LSD in a future 5-speed for Project X, but that's a story for a different day.

IaM-Ray posted:

Hey Stan, that bike rack could be duplicated for ceiling storage or spare parts bin.  

The possibilities are pretty close to endless, but if I build another, it'll be to lift the tandem bike. It's home now is in my shop, and is not very accessible.

@Stan Galat wrote- "...Stock, they came with metal discs and clutches, but there is a guy (Paul Guard) who has a rebuild kit available for them using friction discs and some other special whatnot. The mystery is if what I have will be rebuildable, as not all are..."

If the housing has worn from tabs on the plates (the only place they really wear), I have heard Paul doesn't feel they are worth putting the effort into, and says 1 day he will machine some new housings. Bruce (here in Burnaby- who I think sold it to you?) has reconditioned diff housings by welding/re-machining and can rebuild it for you with the Guard ceramic friction plates and proper belleville washers (he keeps them in stock). He will rebuild it for you.

Or- if you want to believe Mr. Guard when he tells you it is junk- instead of throwing it the scrap pile you can send it to me. I'll pay the shipping and a 6 pack (what the heck, make it a 12 pack!) of your choice.

Your Kanucklehead buddy Yoda

PS-  ZF limited slip differentials were a factory option in Beetles and Super Beetles, various commercial vehicles, Karmann Ghias, Type 3's and Things starting in the mid '60's. There are both swingaxle and irs versions, as well as various later bus models. The thing- it seems they were never available in any cars destined for the U.S. or Canadian markets, hence Stan's comment that they are "as rare as hen's teeth".

I have no idea how accurate this code list is-

https://www.limebug.com/how-to-guides/view/32

@ALB,

Is this Bruce Tweedle? IF so, I've been trying to message him through TheSamba, but he hasn't stopped in for weeks.

If you have some alternate contact information, PLEASE PM me.

@Stan Galat- listen to Paul- it's junk- send it to me- I'll buy you beer

Stan....From the 90% of us that do not understand 90% of what you wrote all I can say is "we are not worthy." Thankfully the DNA pool creates folks such as yourself and other technically intelligent people so that the mechanically inept can enjoy these cars as well. I can only imagine that the VW engineers from the 30's would say if they witnessed what they wroth upon the 21st Century. Of course we could probably still find one of those English engineers that rebuilt the factory after WWII and infected the cars with Lucas DNA oil leaks. 

@stangalat you're buying special "beehive" valve springs and all kinds of rigormorole and what-have-you building a bigish engine with Panchitos yadda yadda.  Why are you showing shift points below 6000?

Ed, don't mess with El Presidente Por Vida. One of his minions will take you out LOL!

edsnova posted:

@stangalat you're buying special "beehive" valve springs and all kinds of rigormorole and what-have-you building a bigish engine with Panchitos yadda yadda.  Why are you showing shift points below 6000?

Good question @edsnova. Habit, mostly.

I'm interested in where the shift-points are in normal travel. I could've (and probably should have) put in 4000 as the shift-point because that's where I like to shift when I'm being a good boy. I used to plug in redline, but @ALB broke me of the habit in one of the 50 or so PMs we've sent back and forth over the years regarding the perfect 5-speed.

FWIW: Al Blanchette is the residing "king of gears" _{(all hail the king)}, at least as I see it. We joke about the holes and the quizzes of new members, but he's been enormously helpful as a resource-- both for knowing where to get stuff and for knowing what is available for gear-stacks. I wish I'd have known him 15 years ago. @Anthony has been equally patient as I've cycled through about 6 different gear combinations. He's an amazing asset to this hobby, and I wish I lived close enough to avail myself of his services without incurring many hundreds of dollars in UPS charges.

Anyhow, this motor should pull to 7000+ RPM, but Panchitos aren't big heads by any metric. They're inexpensive, with 40 mm intakes and 62 mm of port volume. The magic is in the flow and the port velocity-- the "as cast" numbers are crazy: 167 cfm at .500 lift and 300 fps. The net/net is that these heads will work on a hot street motor of pretty much any common displacement.

I've spent way, way, way more money on heads in the past, and they were way, way, way bigger to get those flow numbers (and couldn't hope to get those port velocity numbers). It's the port velocity that should make them drivable, and pleasant as a GT (snappy pull from everywhere in the RPM register) as long as the cam is not too much, and I'm trusting Mr. Downs on that. The CB cam series is super-interesting, with all of them ground on 107* centers rather than the usual 108*. I've never run one before, mostly because the catalog (for cams) is such a mess that it's really hard to find what you are looking for (even the numbers don't correspond to anything). But I'm excited to try this one.

The beehives yada, yada, yada are all me-- my personal desire to complicate something built to be inherently simple. I just love the idea, and being in love with theoretical ideas is what gets me up in the morning.

I'm only happy when it rains.

Stan, I'm really looking forward to seeing this come together. 

I recently sent young Brian to Autocraft in MA to get his heads flycut rather than all the way out to CB(shipping$$$ and time). He'll end up with a motor more similar to Anand when he's done. For those that don't know, Mike at Autocraft is a class act. They do a ton of VW drag motor work, and are the source for the only currently manufactured serious dry sump pump. CB makes one as well, but Stan and I are of the opinion that the CB pump has gears that are too small. Autocraft makes a 1.5 stage, 2 or 3 or 4 stage. I have a 2 stage, it sticks out a few inches and does what I need. It's also complicated enough.

I'm only happy when it rains, too.

Stan Galat posted:

edsnova posted:

@stangalat you're buying special "beehive" valve springs and all kinds of rigormorole and what-have-you building a bigish engine with Panchitos yadda yadda.  Why are you showing shift points below 6000?

Good question @edsnova. Habit, mostly.

I'm interested in where the shift-points are in normal travel. I could've (and probably should have) put in 4000 as the shift-point because that's where I like to shift when I'm being a good boy. I used to plug in redline, but @ALB broke me of the habit in one of the 50 or so PMs we've sent back and forth over the years regarding the perfect 5-speed.

 

Ah. So... Um.

Why not redline? Or better yet, why choose any particular rev range as a shift point when figuring gear ratios? 

In other words, what is, distilled from those 50 PMs, the wisdom here?

edsnova posted:

Stan Galat posted:

edsnova posted:

@stangalat you're buying special "beehive" valve springs and all kinds of rigormorole and what-have-you building a bigish engine with Panchitos yadda yadda.  Why are you showing shift points below 6000?

Good question @edsnova. Habit, mostly.

I'm interested in where the shift-points are in normal travel. I could've (and probably should have) put in 4000 as the shift-point because that's where I like to shift when I'm being a good boy. I used to plug in redline, but @ALB broke me of the habit in one of the 50 or so PMs we've sent back and forth over the years regarding the perfect 5-speed.

 

Ah. So... Um.

Why not redline? Or better yet, why choose any particular rev range as a shift point when figuring gear ratios? 

In other words, what is, distilled from those 50 PMs, the wisdom here?

 

When figuring out gear spacing, if you plug in 3600 as Max Rpm (stock shift point- the upshift marks on a stock speedometer) you can then compare what the chart calls the 'Shift Point' (what the rpm falls to in the next gear, or what some call the 'recovery rpm') to a stock 4 speed, which is (aprox) 1900 rpm in 2nd, 2200 in 3rd and 2400 in 4th. You'll notice that with every upshift the recovery rpm gets higher- all stock gearboxes (that I know of) are like this to make the best use of the engine's powerband in normal driving. Al

Ps- if you're trying to work out the best spacing for racing/performance then you would look at the recovery rpm's from redline. Again, as you shift from gear to gear, for best acceleration the recovery rpm will get higher as well.

Another PS- any time you make the gear spacing wider than stock you run the risk of creating a zone where the engine can't cool itself properly and will overheat if operating under full power for any length of time. For example- when going to a .82 4th the recovery rpm drops about 200 rpm and think of going up a hill under full power in this area (2200-2400) where even at full power the car won't go any faster. The engine can't get rid of the heat generated fast enough. When I first started driving VW's as a teenager, this is what old guys called 'lugging it', and cautioned against it because it meant death for the engine.

Note- this is more of a concern with a smaller engine than something 2 liters or bigger.

And another PS- I forgot to say- great question Ed!

Thought for the day- since a watercooled engine uses air to cool the water, doesn't that make it just an overly complicated aircooled engine?

Maybe I can help here. We don't all shift at the redline every time, right? By dropping the redline(shift point, as it were), we get a real-world usage metric. This way you can see the rpm drops between gears under more typical usage, such as what Stan is talking about as a GT cruiser. 

I agree with DannyP, I don't shift at all, my SAS subi is automatic  

To square the circle: plugging in 7000 RPM is kinda' cool, and if you are looking at the graph (as opposed to the chart) should give me what I'm looking for... because I went to Tremont Grade School, and can pick a point on a graph and see what it corresponds to.

Plugging 3500 RPM (or 3600 as Al said) makes the numbers on the chart useful, as it tells me where I can comfortably cruise in any gear. Of note is the final-drive, which has me spinning at about 3500 RPM at 79 mph (perfect for me). 

In this instance, 3500 RPM (about my maximum desirable RPM for sustained cruising) equals 19 mph in first, 36 mph in 2nd, 56 mph in 3rd, and 79 mph in 4th. Those "shift point" numbers are nice too-- they tell me that if I shift at 3500 RPM, I'll drop to 1869 RPM on the 1/2 shift, 2234 RPM on the 2/3, and 2486 on the 3/4.

If I spin up to 5500 RPM, I'll drop to 2950 RPM on the 1/2 shift, 3476 RPM on the 2/3, and 3952 on the 3/4.

I hope I haven't overcammed it.

Trust Pat. You'll do right. 

I forgot to mention earlier- thanks for the kind words, Stan. The engine will be a beast, and I'm interested in what you think of the beehives. I'm sure your gearstack will work quite well. You'll like the slightly shorter 3rd and 4th.

Oh- btw- haven't received a tracking number for that hunk of steel yet. I've got beer money in an envelope for when it gets here... 

'preciate the feedback. 

At the risk of sounding contrarian (when I'm actually not, at least on this point): how does the "stock" 3600 rpm upshift point relate to the real-world in-the-torque-curve zone of a typical Pat Downs 2110—or this here engine?

I think I know the answer, which is 'If Pat's doing right by me or Stan or anyone the street 2110 or 2332 or whatever is going to make a lot more torque at 1800 than the original engine did and be perfectly happy pulling you up a hill from that rev range.'

But I also think it's in the nature of hot-rodded engines, or any sort (and not just VW), to, let's say, like and appreciate the area of torque lying somewhat above the original engine's power band. 

—and that finding gear spacings that play well with those higher RPM ranges is at the core of this discussion.

In other words: of course you're going to get acceptable spacing from stock gears if you plug in "cruising" RPMs. That's baked into the VW transaxle cake. 

No?

@ALB  I did the ratios with my Subie 5 sp tranny and the following shows my ratios and that at 3000rpm  I am running around 70mph.

While you're talking shift points and gear charts...

I notice if you enter a 'Max RPM', the chart generates its own 'shift points', which are not the 'max' and differ for every shift. 

Keeping in mind the chart software has no idea what engine is being used (and no idea of what torque or power curves are available), where is it coming up with these shift points and what do they signify?

OK sorry, just figured that out. It's the max rpm you can be at without hitting the redline when you downshift.

OOOOOOOOOH!

NOW I get it!

Mitch, once again your Hollywood looks, unlimited bankroll, lovely wife and all-round 5-Speed sensibilities have answered my question and afforded me unearned wisdom. Thank you.

@Stan Galat of course 5500 RPM is just about the right upshift point for the engine you envision. That's going to be right around peak HP. No idea how I missed seeing it on the first and second look.

@Sacto Mitch  do it again with 3500 rpm as cruising speed it is interesting to note the difference.

Those are the recovery rpm's or where the engine speed drops to when shifting into the next higher gear.

Ray, the difference is, if you specify a 'max' of 3500, you will have to downshift at lower revs to avoid going over 3500 once you've shifted down, no?

ALB posted:

Those are the recovery rpm's or where the engine speed drops to when shifting into the next higher gear.

I think that's a less upside-down way of putting it than what I said.

edsnova posted:

Mitch, once again your Hollywood looks, unlimited bankroll, lovely wife and all-round 5-Speed sensibilities have answered my question and afforded me unearned wisdom. Thank you.

Again, for the kids from Pekin:

Mitch:

Me:

Ed:

Resistance is futile.

Sacto Mitch posted:

 

Ray, the difference is, if you specify a 'max' of 3500, you will have to downshift at lower revs to avoid going over 3500 once you've shifted down, no?

 

Sorry, what I meant to say was that at 3500rpm or 3000rpm whatever your cruising speed RPM you want to have it at least gives you a feel for what gear and what mph you will have plus what the recovery rpm will be for your next gear.  Did I say that right?

IaM-Ray posted:

@ALB  I did the ratios with my Subie 5 sp tranny and the following shows my ratios and that at 3000rpm  I am running around 70mph.

For what you use the car for the ratios look good, Ray. If I make it to Carlisle this year I'd love a short ride to see what your car is like, if that's ok?

Can we get an AMEN?

Stan, you have a way with words, my friend.

Yes, he does. You should check this site out more often, Drake.

edsnova posted:

'preciate the feedback. 

At the risk of sounding contrarian (when I'm actually not, at least on this point): how does the "stock" 3600 rpm upshift point relate to the real-world in-the-torque-curve zone of a typical Pat Downs 2110—or this here engine?

I think I know the answer, which is 'If Pat's doing right by me or Stan or anyone the street 2110 or 2332 or whatever is going to make a lot more torque at 1800 than the original engine did and be perfectly happy pulling you up a hill from that rev range.'

But I also think it's in the nature of hot-rodded engines, or any sort (and not just VW), to, let's say, like and appreciate the area of torque lying somewhat above the original engine's power band. 

—and that finding gear spacings that play well with those higher RPM ranges is at the core of this discussion.

In other words: of course you're going to get acceptable spacing from stock gears if you plug in "cruising" RPMs. That's baked into the VW transaxle cake. 

No?

Ed, to answer your musings about the nature of hot-rodded engines: the torque band doesn't necessarily get shifted higher in the rev range. If the engine designer does his job well, the modified(and probably larger displacement) mill should have more torque everywhere. And if he gets it right, the torque curve will be close to flat as a board, with no peaks and valleys.

While what you say has merit for high-revving track motors and drag racing, it doesn't really apply to today's hot street motors.

What makes Pat's Panchito formula work so well is port velocity. High port velocity and small port volume equal higher efficiency. Port velocity equals torque AND more importantly drivability. A bigger cylinder with high velocity filling is more efficient. The increased swirl creates a more even charge, thus allowing higher static compression. The high static compression is enabled by huge lift. Large lift numbers lower the dynamic compression: valves open longer and deeper counteract that high static number. Dynamic compression is more important than static because it gives you numbers under actual working conditions.

A case in point: my static compression is 10.2:1, running 32 degrees total timing on 93 octane pump gas. I'll admit, I am right at the razor's edge of too much timing. I do have two maps loaded in my ignition, swapped by a flick of a switch. Or a 2 second flash from a laptop. The second map retards the max timing to 28 degrees in case we get some not-so-good gasoline, or if only 91 octane is available. Also note that I run 0.550" valve lift, not a small number. My heads(with 44mm intake) flow very well, but I'd love to see a set of Panchitos with slightly bigger valves, say 42mm intake. That would be very impressive.

I'm really looking forward to seeing what Stan's motor will do. I would most probably build one exactly like it if I ever needed to replace mine.

Having ridden as a white knuckled observer in Stan's car, I can't imagine it getting much harrier than the thing that pushed us down "The Rattle Snake".....That said, I await the time when I may be allowed a ride with the new and improved engine....

@LeonChupp,

You're the perfect hammering companion-- you've got great ears, you're a great wrench, and you really like to go fast. You're welcome to come along for "brisk" rides any time.

But to re-emphasize, I'm not necessarily aiming for "more" with this set-up-- I'm aiming for more reliability and simplicity, with as little step off from what I've got as possible.

I've got plans for the twin plug motor, and those plans are to unshackle it for "Project X". I hope to send the heads to get the intakes re-worked and opened up a bit, put in 44 mm intakes, stroke it to 84 mm to make it a 2332 again, and use some JPM thick-wall 94 mm cylinders and slipper-skirt forged pistons in it. I'll run a 1-3/4" header on it, and probably bolt on the tri-jet 48s. I'm undecided on the cam, but I'd like to see how I like the cam in the 2234 before I jump. Target will be a legit 200 hp, and I think I should be able to hit it without a ton of trouble. 

@DannyP,

It's like you read my mind and open my email. One of the hardest things about this project was to not mess with the heads more than I already am. Believe me, opening up the intakes just under the seat (and nowhere else) and putting in 42s is something I'm still toying with. To my mind, this would make them "perfect", but I have a way of creating a series of unintended consequences when I head off the reservation.

The latest updates from the machinist put me months away from being ready to get funky with the heads, so I've still got time to change my mind 4 or 5 times. But the allure of bigger-valve Panchitos is a siren song that has me lashing myself to the mast.