A question about paint

All--if anyone has some insight.

There is a reputable body shop in my area ---they have done some georgeous work restoring cars and their paint is award-winning and pretty famous in these parts. They repaired my wife's Explorer and I was impressed as it was perfect in every respect.

The owner of this shop has suggested that I let them wet sand and buff out the paint on my Ivory Vintage Speedster. They feel that they could get the orange-peel, runs and sandpaper scratches out and the paint's appearance would be greatly improved. They say no swirl marks or scratches would be there and that it will look great. They feel the paint is more than thick enough to do this process.

My question is---has anyone here had experience with such a procedure?
Is it as safe as it sounds and would the results be satisfactory?

I am tempted to have this done but wanted to see what our resident experts have to say.

Thanks for any advice!----Jack

Do it. Paint shines more the flater/smoother it gets. Is you have orange peel they will wet sand the highs of the peel (during this p[art of the process your car looks flat). Once the orange peel highs become even with the lows the surface is now flat and they will start to buff it using finer and finer abrasives till beautiful.
It'll be fine.

Looky here:



http://www.autobody101.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5183&highlight=speedster

Nice thing about Speedster is there are no real sharp edges where they can sand or buff thru. If paint is indeed thick thick enough it would probably make a huge improvement. Get then to touch up any nicks first. Post pictures of before and after for us to judge.

You almost ALWAYS color sand a paint job! And the results are spectacular ! ! !

If the paint/clear coat is too thin to color sand, the paint job was done incorrectly.

Jack - as you can see/read, color sanding is a fairly routine process employed by body/paint shops to enhance paint finish.

You will be amazed at the improvement for the nominal cost of the color sanding.

Show us before and after pictures.

BTW - have you previewed or bought Steve Martin's (the comedian) latest album, banjo music written and performed by Steve Martin?

careful with how thick that paint was applied. generally the more $$ - the more layers.

with all the curved places on these cars - if you hold the DA in one place too long, you can burn through the paint pretty quickly.

Light color sanding and buff = "perty!" ~Alan

We wet sand everything after painting it (but then again, we usually paint the cars in a field)...

We do it by hand, but I have cut some with a wheel and rough and ready. There are some extremly find papers out there that would let you cut with a DA. We're going to try that on Steve's Cabby this spring.

Let 'em rip. This is SOP on most paint jobs including alot of orange peel factory paint.

angela

Does a nice job of making bug legs disappear from dried paint :)

What is a DA?

Well this kinda depends when you were born.

What is a DA?

........."Duck's ass" haircut style fron the 50's

......... Pneumatic Dual Action Rotary/Orbital Sander

As long as we're on the subject of paint and wet sanding. When I finally finish all the stuff I'm currently doing (rear suspension, welding in those frame reinforcements, having a new piece welded in to patch the drivers side floor, and redoing the interior which incidentally is getting dropped off at the upholsterer tomorrow) I was going to get my car painted again, by my favorite guys at Maaco.
So I have a two part question; I removed the rocker panel trim, side trim and emblems and filled the holes. I also did a little "fill in" work along the rocker panels. I was thinking about having the car spot painted instead of completely repainted, is that realistic? And can I wet sand a urethane paint, or is that only good for enamel? I figure if I spot paint it (let it cure for a couple months) and then wet sand it, I could probably come up with a better finish than Maaco could deliver. What grit paper, 3000? What polish is used after wet sanding? I just figured I'd ask.

See
http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/color-sanding-buffing-123.html
A few guidelines.
Wet sanding metallics is usually verboten;it destroys the reflectivity of the flakes. Clearcoat is OK to sand.
Dont WAX for a month, fresh paint need to outgas

Vince needs to outgas once in a while also...

Seems it used to be that only lacquer paints were wet sanded and buffed with rubbing compound. If you didn't do it - even with clear you got no shine. On the new paints - isn't it still best to wet sand the color coat then apply clear which is just buffed out? I thought the new paints were finished pretty much once painted was applied? I can't even find acrylic lacquer andy more - destroying the rain forest must have wip[ed out the lacquer beatle (along with EPA/OSHA).

Color sand, clear and sand then buff out the clear...this results in a near mirror like finish.

Which gets us back to Big Jack's question...

Once they get the color coat sanded level and it looks great, it would be a very good idea to spray on a clear coat and then buff the clear coat to the desired lustre.

Doing that will make the paint look about a foot deep and really "pop" in the sun.

I was surprised on my white car (white is notorious for not looking shiny in the first place) how much the clear coat makes it all pop. On a darker car it is far more noticeable.

This is a time and material thing. ~Alan

"getting a Speedster is just the first step"

Couldn't have said it better. I think having as much fun with the little re-engineering projects as I do driving it - well maybe not, but the projects ARE fun.

Oh Lane--I left out "re-windowing"!---Jack

Wow---such great info and on a topic I haven't seen much about here.

Today I'll see the "sample" area he did last night --he was going to just wet sand and buff. I'll ask about some clear coat too to see
what he thinks about this approach. I have no clue as to the kind of paint Vintage uses but hope this guy will know.

It seems that an ivory colored paint will never show like a great black job but I think I can get it better thanks to youse guys.

After being at Carlisle last year and seeing what great paint does for a car---Alan's, Howard's and others for example,you see what is possible.
Also the JPS site has some cars that have as great paint as you will ever see. Even some of their lighter colors. I wonder who paints the JPS cars--they are outstanding looking.

Oh well--we all know that "the madness" means that getting a Speedster is just the first step. Fixing, sorting, changing, customizing, improving, and spending sums of money is what comes after the first step into this world. Oh--I left out "de-orange peeling".

What is a fair price for wet sanding and buffing? How much more for a coat of clear and finishing that?---Jack

The only way to get a show car finish is to wet sand and buff. Such a finish cannot be sprayed out of a gun. Something about the laws of physics.

I painted my car in the garage and wet sanded to get the little flying bugs out, and then buffed to bring up the mirror shine.

Chuck

For the sake of argument let's just say that I'm an idiot, well, because I am an idiot.
Anyway, could someone be more specific about the term 'buff' (No Vince, your definition doesn't count). I get the wet sanding part. You use a 2000 grit wet paper with a little soap in the water. Clean the surface and then buff it with what? What product? What brand name? Are you saying you paint the car, wet sand it, then spray a clear coat and then 'buff' that? What if I just want to wet sand my car to make the paint smooth. Can I 'buff' that out without applying a clear coat?
I've decided this is something I may do to my car regardless of whether I repaint the whole car or spot paint it. I'd prefer to spot paint it because I don't want too many coats on it. So remember now, I'm a complete idiot and I need very specific names, steps and products.

Buffing removes the fine scratches and gives you the glossy reflection. Buffing is using rubbing compound (the red stuff like by 3M) in a can followed by polishing compound (the white stuff). Turtle wax, 3M and Meguiars are popular brands. Its generally applied with a circular or random wool/cotton buffer (unless you want to build biceps like Arnold). Eastwood probably has good write up at their site.

Mickey, go to vwvortex.com forums ,the car lounge .'detailing' and you will learn more about paint than you care to know.
Regards, Tom.

There's also an "anti-swirl" compound which is either gray or purple, depending on who you get it from. Sometimes they use that first, then the red/rust stuff, then the white stuff and then you're done.

Mickey, the process is all the same--I don't care what you call it.
It's flattening irregularities in the surface with finer and finer abrasives. No science-good old fashioned effort.
It's the same reason a waxed car shines--you apply the wax, it dries and you buff off the high's leaving the wax in the valleys. When light
hits the flat/smooth surface it's reflected off cleanly. If the same light were to hit an irregular surface it gets kind of absorbed or bounced in different directions ruining the light reflection.

Look at the autobody101 link above---the man took the time out to picture his sanding/buffing on a speedster in the UK--it's a beauty.
You can shave in that finish.

Yeah, and the best thing he did was fabricate that sanding bar to get his panels straight and flat. Makes a BIG difference!

Mickey, I painted a Triumph TR4 back in the early 1980s with lacquer and clear coat. Since then, lacquer has been outlawed by the good old EPA. We now have a substitute called "Base Coat/Clear Coat." The base coat is not as volatile and will not "flash off" or dry as fast as the old lacquer.

Anyone can paint withe the Base Coat. It goes on in a thin coat and dries to a flat finish. After two or more coats of Base Coat, the Clear Coat is sprayed on in several coats, up to maybe 25 coats. Two double coats, or in other words, four coats of clear are applied and allowed to dry. The secret I found to a smooth clear coat is to get it thinned out enough to flow without running.

After a couple of days of drying, the car needs to be color sanded to smooth out the clear coats. Start with about 400 wet/dry sandpaper with water and a little soap and go up in increments to 2000 grit. After that, it is necessary to use a buffing machine with polishing compound. I have a professional buffing machine weighing about 10 pounds with a 9 inch diameter pad. I use it on low speed with 3M polishing compound and a water squirt bottle.

I learned all of this through trial and error. The first time I painted my Speedster, the finish was what I called a "Braille" finish because it was so rough. Too little thinner!!! Had to sand most of it off. The second time, I had too much moisture in the air compressor tank and got fish eyes in the clear coat. Had to sand most of it off again. That is how I got to the third time and a glass smooth finish. A lot of sanding and arm workout.

Hope this helps in understanding how to get a show car finish.

Chuck

Jack wrote. " Who paints JPS cars"?

Well, in 2001 JPS paint was Glasurit and the painter was Auto FLM. They shared the same building in his present North Hollywood location, separated ony by a roll-up door. I believe they also shared the same premises at their prior location (back in the Autospeed days - 1990?).

I believe that Auto FLM no longer resides in the same building as JPS today. Who does John's paint today I do not know.

Who is Auto FLM you say. Well back in the day they were the detail shop for ALL Ferrari, Lamborghini and Maserati vehicles (F L M get it?) delivered to the west coast. Before customer delivery, they all went through that facility. It was a complete bodyshop. When my car was done in 2001, the exotic volume was way down and they were mostly doing restorations and rice rockets, although the original owner was still there.

That's perfect. I think I'll give it a shot on a test section of my car. The great thing for me is I'm not looking for a perfect paint job because as I've mentioned previously, I still have to park on the street alot. That said I don't want a crappy finish either. Hopefully between some spot painting and sanding/buffing I can get it to look nice enough.

Jack how is the paint turning out?

Jack - When I took original delivery of my 356 Cab from SAS (2006), it got beat up as on delivery as the truck driver put the car right behind the hauler cab which did not have mud flaps on (lesson learned, pay for the enclosed). It went thru a few storms on its way from TN to Michigan and was covered in sand and fine scrathes all over the front and sides of the vehicle. I paid about $100 (cash) for a local body shop guy to come to my home and wet sand my car (took about 4 hours, all by hand). It came out great, but my clear was pretty thin. I find out later that there was not a significant amount of clear/paint in the first place. I've also found there are many techniques when and how often to wet sand when painting/repainting a car. I had elective body work done on my 356 and decided to have the complete body repainted vs. spot painted due to 1) there was not a lot of material left on the car and 2) since there are not hard lines on the 356, its not as easy to blend or break the spot painting as with traditional cars. Top show cars are wet sanded many times as the clear coats are applied. 4 coats on, 1 to 2 off. 4 more on, 1 to 2 more sanded off, and so on. On many quality repaints, there may only be one wet sanding after all the clear is applied. If you want to see the outcome of my repaint - I have some pics posted (rob_356a_cabriolet). Best of luck. Rob

It may be too late, but Rob's advice is especially pertinent in your case, Jack, as you have a white car. White doesn't "pop" unless it has a thick clear coat and was wet sanded between the last color coat and each of the clear coats. That will give you paint that looks three feet deep, even white.

Pearls are even worse, as a lot of guys don't like to wet sand the pearl layers. The process for those is 3 coats of color, then sand out to level, one more color coat and a buff, then 2 coats of Pearl (from different directions) then buff, then two coats of clear, wet sand, then two more coats of clear, wet sand and buff. And that's for a cheap job! Show paint jobs are, as Rob mentioned, many more coats and sanded in between - that is a LOT of labor and $$$!

THAT's why people are stunned at the paint cost for such a small car... But if you want it to POP!, especialy at night, that's what'cha gotta do.

And then you worry about taking it out, so wait a season and get a clear nose film for it. Best $500 you'll ever spend.

gn

Gordon, Rob, Marty--well I got the car back and am very pleased with it. I don't want to say too much a lot the paint appearance before the color sanding and buffing,but I am super-pleased with how it looks after this treatment.

As soon as I get a coat of wax on it I'll take and post some pictures.

My car is not a flashy car like Marty's or Gordon's Pearl, but it is what I wanted---I would feel wierd driving a brighr red speedster ---just ain't my style. BUT I wanted it to be the best ivory color it could be. For an old fart I think Ivory is more appropriate than red--although I love red a lot!

Turns out that my Vintage had no clear coat--just painted witgh thye color coat(s)-- but it is very thick, according to the paint shop. They removed a lot of the trim then wet sanded it starting with 1200, then 1500 then 2000 grit then buffed it with some compound then two polishes. I simply cannot believe that it wasn't stripped and painted because all the orange peel, runs and blobs are totally gone. The orange peel was particularly bad and now it's almost perfectly slick,flat and very glossy. I didn't get a clear coat sprayed now---just doesn't seem to need it plus it was $450 for the trim off and on, color sand and buff.

I'm looking forward to getting a coat of wax on it in a couple of days and think it'll look even better than it already does.

Also I put the Marchals on this weekend and the car is looking excellent! Getting ready for Carlisle!!

As always I wouldn't have enven known about color sanding and buffing if not for the folks here so thanks to all who posted advice.

--Jack

Hey, congratulations!! I know how great it must feel to get it back looking terific. That was a more than decent price for all that work, too.

Now, you'll undoubtedly get a horde of suggestions on which wax to use. Angela and I used to recommend MeGuire's "Gold Class". I still do, but I think Angela has found something better (God knows, it could be "Sex Wax" on a fiberglass car, but she recently mentioned something super easy to apply and it wasn't MeGuire's)

Best of luck with it!

gn

I have to put in another plug for what I believe is the best wax out there - and among the easiest to use. I've been using P21S for a number of years now, and have yet to find anything that looks better, lasts longer, or is as easy to apply and remove. I never use my buffer anymore because this stuff is so easy.

Lane, Is this the stuff?
http://www.autopia-carcare.com/p21-127.html

Jack, glad your all shined up now. Maybe I'll let you park next to me at the next event:)

What is a safe temp to wax your car. Meaning not to cold.


Marty G.

Yup, that's it. Great stuff!!!

As for temp, I usually wait for the 60's or better, but that may not happen in your area for a while yet. Not sure about low temp limits on the wax. I just check the container, and it didn't say anything.

For your first time I recommend using the pre-wax paint cleanser (P21S has one of those as well) and doing a clay bar treatment. I only do the whole 3-stage thing once or twice a year. The rest of the time I just put on a coat of wax, which takes less than an hour on the Speedster. In total, I probably wax my cars 4 times a year.

Oh yeah - the best clay bar value I've found is Griot's Garage. There's is a lot bigger than most others, and it works well with their Speed Shine.