AC on IM

A word of caution and I say this with real trepidation cause Henry has been a great help to me. One of the braces of the IM AC bracket is attached to the fan shroud--pop rivetted no less. Over time the one on my car popped all the rivots off and with the vibration of the engine the bracket was banging into the shroud, eventually breaking off one the direction vanes which would at timese block the hot air exit. WHen I got the car I would stop everytime that happened, waiting till the car cooled down. It took a very long time to get from Sacto to Eugene. The previous owner had made Many mods to the cooling system such as a massive external oil cooler, holes cut in the fender wells etc. and still the over heating persisted. WHen I got home I could feel the peice of sheet metal where there shoiuld have not been one. I removed the shroud and saw the damage. ENd of cooling problems. One does not have to have a degree in QUantum Physics to realize that attaching 30 pound AC turning at 4 K rpm to a flimsy fan shroud which is held to the motor by two little sheet metal bolts that are attached to more engine tin. I alerted Henry to this and he said there was no problem. Perhaps my engine was the anomaly, however to those of you who have AC on your IMs check those pop rivets and the stablity of your AC unit. It cost me a lot of money to replace a motor that was tired b4 its time. I fully expect the hate mail to start but if only one person sees some broken rivots perhaps a few grand might have been saved.

Ralph I have the firing order for you when you get done with all that other stuff.

No need to expect hate mail. You experienced a problem and reported it.

You said the previous owner had made a number of modifications to the cooling system of the car. Could this have caused the A/C unit to have eventually come loose?

Call Vintage tomorrow and ask about the compressor kit they used on Guffin's Speedster A/C.

It is trick, and rock solid. An NO, it does not attach to the shroud.

Good luck.

The Vintage is a stout set up, I had it (or what they used in '01) on a Vintage. It made pulling the distributor a chore, even pulling the cap took a little finesse and with my big hands I had trouble putting in points as the compressor was angled over the left side of the dizzy, and messing with 40IDfs was not easy (I went to ICTs) on a 1776. Every engine pull (2 times)was harder, and yada. Hopefully that AC is mounted differently than it was. It must be different if the big strokers with 44s are easily tuned... looking at your pics, I think Kirk must have changed that mounting. Good!

In the end I gave up on A/C on the VS as I never used it. I don't have it on the IM either.

You can call Ed at Gilmore Enterprises. He makes all of our A/C bracketry. The main bracket is made from 1/4" plate steel that bolts to existing points on the engine without any modification, except a single 2" hole drilled in the front tin. Two main bolts on the upper exhaust studs (with special nuts so it still seals perfect, and a third at the distributer bracket. Then there are two more adjustable brackets that mount on the main bracket. It is rock solid, easy to adjust/tension and easy to install.

http://www.gilmore-enterprises.com/main.html

What's wrong with rivets? They seem to work fairly successfully on boilers, submarines, airplanes, etc. I can tell you this, you'd really be cursing if you had to try and put that bracket on with nuts and bolts!
Ron

Ralph, I agree with you 100% regarding rivets not being the best way to attach the A/C bracket to the shroud.
But, in Henry's defense, the bracket you're referring to (at least in my car) isn't subjected to much torsional force - it's really designed to work in concert with the other brackets to steady the compressor from moving fore and aft.
An oem German fan shroud is well built and actually quite rigid when mated with other oem engine tin pieces.
Almost all of the support of the shroud comes from it's 4 bolt attachment to the fan mount connected to the alternator.

My guess is that Henry opted for the rivets because they're a much quicker way to attach the compressor bracket, and they worked fine for most of his customers, so he continues to use them.

The previous owner of your car may not have maintained the alignment of the belt coming off the crank causing excessive pulling on the compressor pulley, or the engine may have been run in an out of tune state with a lot of vibration, which may have contributed to the rivets working themselves loose.

Using nuts and bolts to attach the A/C bracket is a time consuming endeavor (been there, done that) which involves assembling all the engine tin, putting the engine in the car, aligning the compressor/bracket, marking and drilling the holes for the bracket, removing the engine, disassembling the engine tin, bolting the bracket to the shroud, and reassembling everything.

Ron, "what's wrong with rivets?"===Nothing when used correctly.
Rivets aren't usually meant to hold a "rod" or "bracket" directly
to tin. To be used correctly a piece of tin formed into a tab could
be secured/riveted to the shroud and then bolted/pinned to bracket.
Earlier in this thread it was mentioned that the bracket doesn't do too much, then leave it off for "testing". I've had that bracket and
compressor off and in my hands, it's heavy no doubt. And if you've
ever driven a small 4 cyl. car up a hill with A/c on you know the
draw it has on power. There is positively stress that needs to be
anchored securely.
Besides, It sounded to me as the original statement was constructive and I would thing anyone would like input in order
to make the final product better.---bruce

Carey I think that Vintage used that kit on my car that is just being built. I installed the A/C with Roland and other than having to bend the brace that goes from the distributor to the A/C (around the fuel pump) the kit is rock solid. You plug the standard driver's side heater outlet in the fan shroud and bore another with a hole saw - but that's about as tough as it gets. It's not billet aluminum or chromed - but more important than that it it solid.

Dave,

I am doing 3 A/C'd cars for my FL dealer now, so I'll shoot some pictures this afternoon.
Carey

Carey, would like to see any photos of Ed's A/C brackets you have installed in one of your builds.

Thanks,

Dave

Carey, when you have a chance, I'd like to see your pictures.

Thanks

Dave

Carey

Thanks Carey, look forward to seeing some pictures of the brackets installed on an engine.

Why was the link to my pictures deleted????

Carey

Regardless,
The brackets uninstalled:
Pic 1 the main bracket
Pic 2 the main and the long support
The main bolts to #4 and the dist. bracket
The long one bolts to #3 and passes between the carb and the doghouse (through the front tin)
The other pics show it installed, although it is pretty hard to see what is going on once it is in the car.
The extra blue wire is for an idle solenoid, to be installed as soon as I am done with this post...
You could support the weight of the engine with this system if you wanted to. Ed did a great job designing it.
CEH

Carey, sorry,.... I know this is off the subject but I Love the stance of the white Beck speedster in the picture you posted! Does it have dropped spindles along with adjustable beams? How does it ride and drive? Michael

No, we don't use dropped spindles. The front is the Puma adjustable beams, and the spring plates are also fully adjustable. The rear of this car is set all the way down, without reclocking. The front is also near the bottom, but not all the way down. The ride is still very nice, a little stiff at first, but will soften up in the first few hundred miles (e.g. still plenty of travel) The only real noticable difference is in turning radius. To run this low you have to set the steering stops a bit further out to keep the tires off of the inner fenders.

Carey

I guess I was not censored as I thought---at least not this time. I concur that with a reinforcing piece behind the shroud the pop rivets would not be as inclined to come loose but that is tuff to get to. Frankly Henry also attached the engine compartment insulation fibreglass to the frame by means of pop rivets which he has subsequently revised but that does not help me in tapping the frame for real bolts. Also, and not to open another can of worms, you will note that when I posted about hi oil temps most IM owners responded that they installed external oil coolers. When i asked Henry about that he said that his cars hav e not over heating problems. OH pulese!! Just read in the manual where he says not to be concerned about the guage going way over as long as it is not in the red. WHen mine was "way over but not in the red" it read 210F. 186F is recommended temp for VWs.
Like I said somewhere else, these are one off kit cars. Not as bad as the Classic that I had where the steering column was held in place by plumbers tape but a one off with no official documentation, part numbers etc. I spent my career working for manufacturing concerns---HP, Apple etc and we did not send out product without documentation, part #s, manuals etc. Right now I am up the creek cause I have a bad wheel bearing and no one can help me. SO if you think I am a little ticked just now, you got it. I don't mind spending $10k for a toy but $20, 30 and up is rediculous.
COLOR ME YELLOW FOR POed.

Well Ron, Ralph brings up a good point. When someone is building a turnkey car they should make a "parts list" for the car. Having said that, I think Henry does do this as several new owners have told me, on a new IM, they had a good listing of what everything was on the car. If it didn't it was custom you could bet on it.

Having said that, I also didn't like my used IM just because of the fact that I didn't have any parts list. I don't think this was Henry's fault, I think the previous owner just didn't give it to me. But anytime I emailed Henry did tell me what it was. The real dissappointment would be that even a headlight relay would be a 3-5 day fiasco of finding out what it was and then ordering it and waiting for it and then waiting for my slower then a 10 year itch mechanic to put it in.

I fully expect this problem to be resolved with the SAW, but I'm sure it will still happen some. Mainly because just about any good mechanic will do.

I usually take bearings down to the bearing wharehouse store and have them look at it, they measure it a couple of different ways, ask me about its application and then produce a bearing? I thought I would say this just to maybe help you on the bearing?

Let's see if I have this right. You bought a use IM, had a few problems, and complained about the car. Then you wanted to sell it and it morphed into the best IM Henry had every built, but now it's a lemon again. And this is all Henry's fault because your USED car didn't come with documentation from HP or Apple so you could find a VW wheel bearing? I've tried to keep out of this, but I just can't stand it any more. Ralph, you're embarrassing yourself.

Ralph, I thought you sold your car, is it still for sale?
One of my coworkers may be interested.

On 9/9/05 you posted:

"Tony:
I sold my car here, OF course it is a very special car and as they say in the sales biz "there is an ass for every saddle" . My car being an IM roadster had everything the buyer wanted.
The guy who has helped me get this car perfect has the bug now and has asked me to keep a look out.. I wonder what shipping costs to Oregon?"

I am not an expert. I was a tech writer and INstructional Technologist. My DVDs were written in conjunction with a Porsche specialist who has over 30 yrs experience. My products are then tested. That is if yoiu bothered to check, Ed, I have a 100% feeback ratings for my product. Just look it up on Ebay. The reason I did not know the FO on a VW was that it was not listed in the manual in the logical place and it did not tell me to look on the engine case.
If you send me $5 for shipping Ed WARD i will send you the DVD for at no charge, It will give you an idea of what training and documentation is abouit.
As to how my IM car is now----I have been working with a local guy for over a week rebuiliding the engine for the third time cause of overheating, and dialing in the rest of the car so that it will be perfect when it is delivered.
I will probably buy another Speedster Rep just cause they are so much fun to drive but not till the bad taste of this lack of "factory" support is out of my mouth. ANd I will not be investing $30k in it. Yes that was my fault. I should have done my homework and bought a new car for a lot less than that but live and learn. As for the name calling---"maroon" --I think you meant to say "moron" I can't figure out what causes this sense of outrage when all I have done is tried to warn other IM owners or prospects of what they will be gettiung into if they buy a used IM. The AC is rediculous but other supliers have really impproved upon their brackets.
OTOH, when I got generic parts from Kirk at VS, the response was quick and helpful.
I guess I should not be surprised by the emotional and judgemental outpouring of a few. If there is one thing I have seen in 40 yrs of playiung with cars is that the sense of rightousness is at about 9.5 BAR. Ford people don't let friends drive Chevy's etc. Also, teh bad mouthing of other cars. Like Miatas and Corvettes. I would drive a Miata anyday if they were not so tiny. They handle great, are solid and simple to work on. And except for the cost of insurance the last couple of generations of Corvettes that I have driven are very nice.
I am sorry if I have upset the delicate sensibilities of a few with my direct recounting of my impressions of my car, parts, support, documentation etc. But I always like to provide grist for the amusement mill and I sure have been successful today : - )

David:
Yes my car is sold...or at least as sold as can be with a good size deposit. THe engine is rebuilt ---again. The last builder did not cut the heads properly and left a ridge so that the cylinders did not seat all the way. We installed a Derale oil cooler. and replaced all the half shaft boots. Now we are taking a front wheel bearing to a bearing place to see if someone can match it up. Who knows what bearing is in there? Not me and no VW guy. NOw with all this work into it it is hard to part with but I made a committment and I wll stand by it. Besides it is winter in Bend now and people are putting away their convertibles. I am taking a break from cars for a few months. Ski season will be here soon.

Do a google on "Maroon" or "Macaroon" and "Slang".

Seems like you have the same luck with engine builders as you do most anything else.

Come on Ralph, you tell us you're a tech writer? You can't spell or type. If I was Jim I wouldn't even waste 5 bucks for your DVD.

The more you write, the more you embarrass yourself. The fact is you're full of it, and I'm sick of it.

I have a used Intermeccanica, 20,000 miles used actually, and have never had a cooling problem. My car lives in the Sacramento valley which equals weeks at 100 *F and the engine is a 2165 with a (horrors) 1 3/8" exhaust system!!!OH the Humanity!! I did purchase the car with a aux. oil cooler. Of course, I know how to keep it in tune and how to take ownership of of my decisions. Thanks for the great car Henry, I just bombed down to LA and back this weekend, 800 miles often at over 80 mph, 27 mpg, and no heating issues. (as expected and designed)

Steve. Ralph is an maroon. I've followed his posts for 3 years. He claims to be a Porsche Expert, even sells a video spewing his skills. Then, if you look at the history of his posts, he asks questions that are basic. That's ok, for a non-expert, but Ralphe touts himself as an expert. His asking for the firing order on here has to be the capper.

Look, this is not about the car. It's about the person. Ralphie would be ballbaaging about a Saw, a Beck, an VS, a JPS, and a TR if that were the second-hand car that he bought that had been abused.

Raplhie has made so many bad remarks about his car, the engine, this and that... and then has the nads to sell it on here like it's a great car. He hasn't fixed it, it's still lacking an oil cooler and other items he has pissed and moaned about. And yet, he has posted on here asking LA guys to take potential buyers for a ride in THEIR cars so they can get an idea what HIS car is like. That's bad stuff.

Ralph's car has been in a state of disrepair or barely running for the three years I (and others) have known or followed him. Here's a fact, Steve. My new IM, your new S.A.W. any VS, Beck, JPS, or Thunder Ranch would be a Piece of Excrement if it was abused, then sold to a "Porsche Expert" that doesn't even know the flippin' firing order for a VW. Not that everyone knows that, but anyone that works on VW engines knows it.... so should Ralph.

Not every bitch on this forum is legitimate. We have chased down the truth on several VS complants and for the 99% part it was the owner, same goes for the one JPS complaint we had on here. I'm not saying that the builders don't make mistakes, but I'm willing to bet the problem sits squarely with the owner in this case.

Again, posting as a member.

I am not sure about any slang usage, but out of interest I looked up the definition of "moderator".

One that moderates, as:
1. One that arbitrates or mediates.
2. One who presides over a meeting, forum, or debate.

Evidently, unless www.dictionary.com neglected to add this, the role of a moderator doesn't extend to name calling or other besmirchments of forum participants - regardless of how much you may personally disagree with their views or the posts they make.

How does the role of moderator become arbitrary? I know of no other forum where "moderators" or "administrators" are able to post as "members" in order to vent their spleen and then revert to their supposed role in keeping the other posters in line.

I neither know nor care about the topic of this thread - it just seems to be another example of how the implementation of moderators for the SOC is a failed experiment.

"I neither know nor care about the topic of this thread."

Then you might look at the other threads and judge the moderating.

Thats it no one is allowed to use a dictionary on this forum again!!!!

It ok to disagree, its ok to even argue, lets try to keep it from being personal.

"I'm not sure if you knew how I got this job, if it would make you laugh or cry?"

Can anyone name what movie this line was said in?

Steve,

I did not intend for the previous to be taken as personal - I apologise if this is how it was perceived.

Nor do I envy you, or any of the moderators of the site, your duties and responsibilities.

Perhaps I am drawing from a knowledge and experience of discussion and debate that is not relevant to the current circumstances and practicalities of an online forum.

My understanding of the role of a moderator, or chairperson, in any debate or discussion is to be neutral and impartial to both sides of the argument. Additionally, Chairpersons are not permitted to make any statements, other than those of a procedural nature, that could be construed as being for or against one side or the other in a discussion or debate.

Like I said, maybe what I am describing is not applicable to an online forum such as the SOC. But, to my understanding, in any debate where there is an appointed moderator, chairperson or otherwise officially sanctioned position of control, it should not be possible for that individual to move between the two roles of debater and moderator.

I do support the adoption of moderation to the SOC forum. Perhaps my previous statement about it being a failed experiment was too severe. However, I do feel that some more thought into the practicalities of the moderation of the various forums should be made.

Jim.

PS I recognise that this is now no longer relevant to the subject matter of the original posting. I apologise for the hijacking of the thread and, unless you wish to open a new thread elsewhere, will not post on this again.

I gotta agree with Webby on this one... You moderators stink....
don't get me wrong, You are good guys, but your moderating skills leave a little to be desired......you show bias in some of the threads, which is not a good moderating skill. Lets remember we are all equal here (well, except in my case)
Lets all try to get along.....(Did I just say That)
I better stop now, I'm getting all weepy eyed....

Webby, my statement was directed at all parties and I'm sorry if you thought I was only talking to you.

It is quickly becoming my opinion that everyone wants a moderator until they are the one being moderated and then they think were natzis are something.

Your right about the role of a moderator not being a traditional role. I know of very few, if any forums, where the moderators don't participate in discussions even when they are arguments if they have an opinion. People need to agree to disagree on some things and move on, this is probably one of those times, so lets move on, I only ask everyone to try and avoid personal attacks. It doesn't prove anything and entertains only a few.

I'm going to be pretty tight on the next few posts, keep them productive, keep them informational, keep them from being personal attacks, and I'm asking please move on now.