Advice on getting a Suby Speedster

I should mention that Carey built my car to my specs as air-cooled in 2010 and he converted it to Suby in 2016.  PM me if you want to talk privately or by phone.  I'm in Detroit on Eastern time.

Whatever you do, buy carefully.  As they say, 'Act in haste, repent at leisure'.

Tom recommends Beck, and they are a good build.  Perhaps a used IM would be in your price range.  Good used Suby Speedsters don't always come on the market, so patience is the key.

Remember, you're not buying a car just for this summer...

It's really only in the last 5-6 years that subby power became popular in vendor built cars - hence you don't see many on the market.  I recall reading threads 5 years ago where Peter V. (sp) and David S. were doing their own conversions and recently Ed on his MGTD replica.  IM made VW/Audi water cooled 1.8-2L Speedsters.  There's an IM water cooled here for sale for $54k - you can take immediate possession!  There was a used SAS Subbie in Az several months ago to.  Just don't order a new SAS and expect it anytime this decade.

Not sure what VS/JPS promised now but suspect it's only 2-3 months --- although now is their peak build season. Suspect an air cooled to water cooled conversion would take about the same time. Buy air cooled and drive it till winter and convert it then.

I think you're going about this the right way, Sean.  You've done some research and are now actively looking for what you want.  As you will know by now, there are lots of very different opinions by owners who want and expect very different results from their cars.  Some only want fair weather cars, while others expect daily driver capabilities.

There really isn't one correct way to pursue your car.  For some, a new build makes sense, while, for others, the used market suits their fancy.  Take your time and ask lots of questions.    

Drive one first. It's not for everybody.

Agree with Stan  and it is best for the Madness for owners to be somewhat wrench worthy.  I always ask : Can you change an alternator?  This tells me if a prospective buyer can disconnect wires, remember where they go and mechanically unbolt things replacing them in proper sequence and get the belt back on right.    ~Alan

Hi @Sean Seena, while I'm new to the community, in a short time, I've probably racked more miles in a fashion that's more akin to your requirements than many who drive it in the summer only. I'm in the OC. I drive it when it's not raining. It sees the 405 mostly. And on occasion that part of pch between Laguna and Corona Del Mar. Mines a 1600 stock. It runs on a vw pan. I drive in the left lane. Probably 85. It handles like 60 year old technology should drive.  It bobs around in the wind.  I love it. I carry a blanket when it's cold. The disc brakes in front are reliable. I'm glad Kirk built mine. He took care of the registration. I fill it up once a week because the bottle neck is a 6 or 7 gallon tank. If you are expecting 2017 creature comforts, then find something else. I have a retro radio with blue tooth and USB connector for my iPhone. I never had a bug. But, I'm completely enamored with the sound of a cold -starting air cooled. It's a P -51 getting ready for take off with all the smoke and noise. You can't get that with water. Go to the VS shop to see how these are made. Kirk doesn't bite. 

Sean, you raise a number of good questions. My Speedster is air-cooled, so I'll pass on the whole Suby vs VW power issue (except to say that air-cooled can be as reliable as Suby power, if a little fussier to maintain).

But using one of these cars as a daily driver goes beyond Suby vs. aircooled. It's a choice that should be seriously thought through. As Stan says, you really need to drive one before contemplating that. There are just too many ways that this 65-year-old design (Suby powered or not) is completely unlike a modern car.

As Tom says, it's more a 'four-wheeled motorcycle' than what we think of today as 'a car' - in mechanical sophistication, creature comforts, ride, noise level, and weather protection.

You could ride a motorcycle to work some of the time - maybe even most of the time in LA - but inevitably there will be days when you'll need a Plan B. And if an air-cooled Speedster isn't a daily driver for most folks, Suby power won't magically turn it into one.

These are, of course, my mad opinions. Dine on our daily buffet of madness for a while and you may decide that you're a madman of a different stripe. You won't really know though, until you drive a Speedster or two.

It all depends:

1- On how much rain or sun protection do you want, how much heat or A/C do you need.   Soft top can be good but some soft tops and side windows are more of a challenge. 

Roll up Windows and removable hard tops are creature comfort that can make it a daily driver and a near all season driver but you might need a plan B unless you can call in sick anytime due to the car being sick   

2- On How much maintenance you can do yourself or have access to help, nearby is better than farther.   Again watercooled eliminates valve adjustments and carb adjustments.  Hand built cars with repro parts are sometimes subject to more breakdown due to part suppliers providing inferior parts. 

3- For a more turn key engine in the sense of turn the key and go the subie or water cooled are more that way.  Aircooled need more time to warm up before you can go. 

4- Parking, do you have a safe enough place to park ... that is subjective of course. 

I strongly recommend attending one of the regional gatherings coming up (Carlisle east of the Mississippi and SLO west of it) to take advantage of the opportunity to compare quite a few in one location.  You can certainly get in some right-seat time and folks may let you do some driving.  It's really worth it for what you'll learn, plus you'll get a head start on the new friends that you'd make.

We've only had 3 Subaru powered Speedsters hit the used market that I can recall (been building them for 8 years now), and all of them sold for very close to new MSRP with one winding up in a bidding war and going over the new price in favor of instant gratification.

Plus you can get cheap insurance on a Speedster if it is not used as a daily commuter.  Some do have special conditions like not primary vehicle, not designated commuter or not to exceed so many miles per year.  So get an old Civic or Corolla for a dependable DD and use the Speedster for special day.

I dunno...  It seems to work out fine for Musbjim.

Jim has other wheels too.

+Sean   I live in the LA area as well. If you would like to drive mine or just talk about these little pieces of joy, send me a PM   Next Sunday is the Pomona swap meet again. I will be there in the Porsche Corral with my "Rhonda"  As you can see, you will get an extremely wide and diverse overview of what your getting into from all of us on this site. Sounds like you got the fever !!......Welcome......Bruce

Hey Sean 'Welcome To The Madness' known as replica Speedster ownership! 

Intent to use a replica Speedster as a 'daily driver' or as your 'primary vehicle' are two entirely different expectations.

I often refer to my Vintage Speedster (air-cooled = AC) as a daily driver. This means I drive it 3 to 5 times a week for distances ranging between 50 to 150 miles each time. I have logged 125,000 miles traveling locally as well as all over the Western States. I don't take it out if the weather is too hot or cloudy/foggy/drizzle/rain. These weather conditions are reasons for NOT having it as my (or yours) primary mode of transportation.

In light of your stated quest, I respectfully offer the following for your consideration;

1) For the cost of a used Suby Speedster, you could have Vintage Speedster build you a Speedster (air-cooled) to your exact specifications within two months. Suby 356's are rarely available (and their condition will vary) so the wait is unpredictable.

2) Contact @Troy Sloan to see when his next project will be on sale. Troy does an EXCELLENT job of sorting out his cars and provides best-bang for-the-buck.

Best of luck on your endeavor and hopefully we'll see you soon on one of our local (SoCal) cruises! 

El Guepo is so polite

His nose is brown

Marty Grzynkowicz posted:

His nose is brown

LOL    

Marty:  You'd better not come to Carlisle now...

Sean ,

check your messages

Jim is being his usual modest self.

He often braves difficult conditions like this just to use the Speedster as his 'daily driver':

Wow, this is truly an active and helpful community, thanks for all the responses, really a wealth of knowledge and experience!  Few more questions generally posed to everyone:

(1) I'm realizing now that I should have mentioned I plan to keep my modern sedan for rainy days or trips to Home Depot.  But I want something as close to a DD as possible so that I have no excuse not to try to "live the dream" every day, rather than take it for a 30min spin every other weekend.  So I wanted to approach the question from that angle.  But thanks for putting it into perspective.

(2) Also, I'm aware of @Gordon Nichols' New/Used Vehicle Acceptance Checklist, but can anyone recommend an individual or shop for inspections?  In Northern or Southern California, where there's a high likelihood I'd purchase.

(3) Lastly, is anyone attending 356 Club's 2017 North Meets South event this coming weekend?  (to your point @Lane Anderson)

Particular responses (apologies for the long post, not sure how else to respond in an organized manner):

@Tom Blankinship Thanks for those tips, Special Edition / Beck is definitely on my radar, and happy to see @chines1 respond here.  Btw, that's awesome to hear re the 3 Suby speedsters!

@Bob: IM S6 That's sage advice and begrudgingly prepared to observe it if I have to.

@WOLFGANG That's a good point, and I've considered a "temporary" AC to hold me over.  In quotes because there's a likelihood I'd fall in love and keep it!

@Alan Merklin Admittedly I'm certainly not a professional mechanic.  But I'm a hands-on guy (engineer) who repairs everything in my life unless it really requires the big guns.  I could swap an alternator and routinely work on the low-hanging fruit items (brake/rotors, oil/filter, spark plug, more involved repairs here and there).  So I'm not shy with the small things but not looking to try swapping an engine myself.

@Large Dachshund Very helpful because that's as close to my situation as it's going to get.  I've been planning to check out VS very soon.  Do you mind elaborating on your air-cooled maintenance in terms of frequency, how involved it is, particular service providers if not yourself, and cost?  

@Sacto Mitch I appreciate the continued warnings from you and others about knowing what I'm getting into.  Any AC maintenance feedback like I asked immediately above?

@IaM-Ray Thanks!  I'm planning on following up on some of these considerations in other threads (or later in this one).

@aircooled Would love to take you up on that offer sometime!  I have the Pomona event recurring in my "social" calendar (yeah it's so bad that I need a calendar for that lol), but never been.  I'll see if I can swing it.  Are you not doing the 2017 NMS event I mentioned above?

@MusbJim You're posts are what give me hope as a DD or primary!  But thanks for also qualifying them.  @Troy Sloan has/had a real nice one recently, I'd strongly consider buying through him if I wasn't embarking on a Suby search.

I should probably ask this more generally, but what's the resale value of a car like that?  Perhaps the way to go is get a clean AC speedster while I wait for the right Suby, then sell the AC when the time's right?  ( @WOLFGANG a permutation of what you suggest).

Many thanks!

Sean

Bob: IM S6 posted:

Marty Grzynkowicz posted:

His nose is brown

LOL    

Marty:  You'd better not come to Carlisle now...

...but my nose IS brown! 

Sean,

You probably won't find many of us Replica people at the North meets South Porsche event.  A few of us have sneaked into some PCA/356 events (I don't sneak - I just drive right in to see what happens) but mostly at local venues.  North meets South is more of a regional thing and, quite frankly, there are some PCA members who would just as soon not have us around there.

That said, it is always nice to go to a meet with so many really cherry 356's attending, even if just as a spectator.

Hey @Sean Seena,

I'm feeling my way with the maintenance part. I'm handy, but no where near as technically adroit as some of the folks on this board. I'd say you're about to jump into a hot tub time machine. I need to buy a timing light and then I'll start checking the gap distance on the valves. These engines are simpler. There's no environmental plumbing to bother with. Here's a caveat : on this board you'll find acute "madness". These guys see the speedster as an arms race. No engine is big enough, torquey enough,etc. You need external coolers, ram jets, etc.  As far as I can tell, none of these guys actually drive their speedster, it's in a perpetual state of suspension. Literally. I drive stock because Kirk has sold a bunch of these and I have to be somewhere M-F.  It doesn't over heat because the compartment can handle a 1600. It is plenty peppy. 

So, outside of oil changes and periodically gapping the valves, I  don't foresee a lot of costs. Remember, if you bought a vw pan, there's no smog check Because the VIN in the chassis is registered with California. The  classic /kit insurance is cheap (for stated value) because you're telling them that you will only drive it to the Concours and it'll never see the light of day.  The last bit there is the real risk. Nobody on this board enjoys traffic more than me. 

"The  classic /kit insurance is cheap (for stated value" 

No, no, no.... Agreed Value, not "stated value."    Big, BIG difference!!! 

Absolutely ! Stated value is what you "say" the car is worth and the insurance company writes your policy for that stated amount however, when you suffer a peril, the insurance company can and will low ball you with a settlement amount much to the south of the actual value.  Agreed amount is a declared replacement value dollar amount that both the vehicle owner and the insurance company agree and enter into a "contract" aka insurance policy to cover the vehicle in full ( less any deductible) for that amount.....Marty can better educate since he is in that business.

Actually most insurances sell you a form 19, which is the depreciated value at the accident date.   Form 19A is an agreed upon value you pay for i.e.: 30K ... it is a write off you get 30K period. 

Good info, Ray.

As others have said, Subaru powered 356s don't come onto the market very often.

A used one will fetch at least $40K, unless there's something wrong with it.  A used, well sorted AC speedster can be found for $20K

Jethro posted:

As others have said, Subaru powered 356s don't come onto the market very often.

 

A used one will fetch at least $40K, unless there's something wrong with it.  A used, well sorted AC speedster can be found for $20K

I'm seeing less and less of the latter. Good used sorted Speedsters seem to have climbed closer to the mid-high 20's in the last year, at least the asking price

Nice red wide body CMC/FF on Samba and was posted here for $18k in NC. Interior could use some love.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/cl...etail.php?id=2036134

Classic body in SC for $22.9k.  Looks great with Fuchs.  Big Type4 - looks to be a steal.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/cl...etail.php?id=2015538

And nice VS on west coast at a dealer for $25k.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/cl...etail.php?id=2021128

MusbJim posted:

Bob: IM S6 posted:

Marty Grzynkowicz posted:

His nose is brown

LOL    

Marty:  You'd better not come to Carlisle now...

...but my nose IS brown! 

And your ears, your chin, your dome, your............ you get the point.

@Gordon Nichols ah good to know.  I was actually wondering if there was a bit of Anchorman movie "us vs them" between the two clubs.  I have dibs on the tire iron for team replica.

@Large Dachshund thanks for the deets on your maintenance and experience.  Yeah you nailed it better than I did- I'm trying to avoid perpetual suspension.  I'm really going to have to fight the urge to make debilitating mods (or at least defer until LA "winter") in favor of driving the thing.  But not dissing that endeavor either:  If you (1)  know what a 356 is (2) actually own one (3) made the effort to actually buy one (4) seeked out and participate on a car forum, then I'm not surprised you're the type to keep tuning your car! haha

@Jethro & @WNGD yeah over the time I've been monitoring ads and actual sales, I've been observing a very wide range in pricing.  Both low and high for each category (suby, air, etc).  It seems to depend on multiple factors like engine type, builder, condition, and sometimes excessive ego!

@WOLFGANG Nice finds, checking those out now.

@Marty Grzynkowicz @Bob: IM S6 @Robert M @MusbJim Hoping to further tan my nose and the general neck-up region soon!  Will need to figure out how to battle this farmer's tan that's already setting in even without a convertible...

I readily apply copious amounts of Extra Virgin Olive Oil to my skin, especially the back of my neck and ears, to ultimately get the same skin coloring that my envied 'Brother from another Mother', MUSBJIM has.  I will forever be envious of him and his natural gift.  This gift was not bestowed upon us warriors of Irish descent.

But....   Later this Summer, after about 3,000 miles on my bicycle, I will finally have the same coloration........  

Except for the palms and the backs of my hands (covered by my biking gloves), and my back and chest (covered by my biking tunic).    They will be, forever, Lilly White.

But my biking legs will look AWESOME!!!!!

Started yesterday with a 11.55 mile loop, on my way to 60-70 mile daily loops, once I get my lungs back.  Been a long winter, but Pneumonia is NOT gonna get ME!

Watch Out, WORLD!  The Old Guy is BACK!

chines1 posted:

We've only had 3 Subaru powered Speedsters hit the used market that I can recall (been building them for 8 years now), and all of them sold for very close to new MSRP with one winding up in a bidding war and going over the new price in favor of instant gratification.

Carey, Are you saying that my conversion is a financially good decision?

That SC car looks like a rare deal. Wish I was a little better capitalized. I'd grab it, Soob it, and put the Type 4 in the Spyder.

The only trouble then would be getting all three cars to Carlisle....