After 67K miles, engine and transmission have to be rebuilt

That's too bad about all of the issues you're having. I don't believe that is a common problem with the Type I nor the Type I transmission. I just think the lipstick finally came off of John's pig. I imagine once Rancho rebuilds the transmission and your mechanic, if you use him, rebuilds the Type I you'll be all set for many many more miles. Maybe reach out to Pat Downs at, www.patdownsperformance.com, and see what a new Type I would cost.

ditto

Seems life expectancy of a new stock well maintained VW 1600 cc engine is 75-100k so 67k is not that bad.  I'm guessing the trans and engine were not renewed or rebuilt but merely cleaned up before being installed by JPS.  Many Speedster owners don't see that many miles over such a short time.

Amazing you got that many miles on your car , I am impressed

67,000 miles on a VW motor is pretty good , since you probably did not have all the cooling tin, heater boxes and rubber seals that a stock bug would have  .

good luck , let us know what you end up doing .

Yeah, thought to myself 67k on a stock type1 with normal oil changes is not too bad.
-=theron

I had the car since 2007, so average of only a little more than 4K/year which is a lot for the replicas that are not driven, but not a whole lot for regular car in California which average around 12K+/year. I guess the consensus here is that the life expectancy of type 1 engine is only around 65-70K? I was hoping for a bit more.

@Karyadi posted:

I guess the consensus here is that the life expectancy of type 1 engine is only around 65-70K? I was hoping for a bit more.

It's actually pretty great, especially for a non-stock engine built with all the care and pride JPS is known for. Cars of the era were completely worn out at 100k - my dad had a '68 Ghia he bought new that needed a complete rebuild at 50k mi.

There's a reason the world moved on.

@Stan Galat posted:

It's actually pretty great, especially for a non-stock engine built with all the care and pride JPS is known for. Cars of the era were completely worn out at 100k - my dad had a '68 Ghia he bought new that needed a complete rebuild at 50k mi.

There's a reason the world moved on.

Hmm, that's surprisingly low mileage for an engine to be worn out in my mind.

Many engines will run far longer, say 100,000 or so, without the need for a complete rebuild.  Even my lowly 1966 MGB engine has better wear characteristics than a VW engine.

So why the seemingly premature wear rate on a NW engine?

Jason

I don’t think that is bad at all.   You can not think of these engines like modern, almost maintenance free engines.  Top end overhauls were common through the 1960’s, and not just on aircooled engines.

A loose keyway sounds to me like substandard parts.  If a piston pin hit a cylinder wall, then a wrist pin clip fell out, possibly caused by crank flex.  What rpm did you turn?  Was the crank, rods, flywheel, pressure plate balanced?  Judging by JPS’s reputation, I’d guess not.

What head temperature did the engine see?  Overheating is the number one cause of loose valve guides and valves seat failures.

There are good VW engine builders out there.  Call a few, listen to what they have to say, then decide who you want to go with. Then take their advice and let them build it their way.

The AC VW type one did not do so well I think as time went on with bigger displacement as the hoover oiling method was missing. I personally had a one that did not survive and it was way below 50K miles.   So in my opinion they were a bit more temperamental in the early years.

@JasonC posted:

Hmm, that's surprisingly low mileage for an engine to be worn out in my mind.

Many engines will run far longer, say 100,000 or so, without the need for a complete rebuild.  Even my lowly 1966 MGB engine has better wear characteristics than a VW engine.

So why the seemingly premature wear rate on a NW engine?

Jason

The stock T1 has a fatal flaw- only 3 main bearings, and a way-out-of-balance crankshaft with no counterweights supported only by flimsy case halves made of soft metal. It starts hammering out the center main the day you drive it for the first time. Balancing helps any engine, but it's absolutely critical for helping a T1 live a longer, happier life.

Then there's the exhaust system, which is a joke. Stock heater boxes are meant to restrict flow, so that the boxes will provide some heat. Getting those boxes warm enough to heat your cabin generally means that your heads are hot enough to wear out the guides (in the best situation), or drop the valve-seats (in the worst).

I had a JPS of 2002 vintage. It had a Serrano 1776 - 110 cam, non-counterweighted crank, stock heads, and an EMPI Monza exhaust (one of the most restrictive things ever bolted on a T1). In effect, he added heat with the bigger cylinders and cam, but did nothing to carry it away with better heads or exhaust. The cooling system was the typical "half-there" 36 hp shroud with no tin underneath. I've never had an engine run hotter. I have no idea what the head temperatures were, but they were well past "good".

John Steele also me he thought a counterweighted crank was just a waste, which tells you all you need to know about John.

Given all of that, 65k mi is outstanding.

When you rebuild the engine, @Karyadi - spend the extra $1000 for better heads (Panchitos or Tims Stage 1). If the crank is worn out (and it sounds like it will be), I'd get a nice counterweighted stroker crank, assuming the case can be line-bored back to good. Get 92 mm thick-wall cylinders. Above all, get a nice exhaust, and lose the heat exchangers.

Actually, the engines Greg Leech is putting in his cars seem like a really nice way to go for a heavily used driver.

There is a funny droning sound that developps when this is happening ...... " The stock T1 has a fatal flaw- only 3 main bearings, and a way-out-of-balance crankshaft with no counterweights supported only by flimsy case halves made of soft metal. It starts hammering out the center main the day you drive it for the first time. "

I am hoping I can shed some light on your JPS troubles.

VW engines might last 100k in stock form. And that is a very slim possibility of might. Valve jobs and piston rings wouldn't last that long even in stock form. This engine was designed in the 1930s as cheap to maintain and replaceable. It is NOTHING like engines of today, machining tolerances and equipment are more precise today.

Ed Karyadi, you had the 2332cc from JPS, yes? I have personal experience with one of those, Tom Dewalt's from the same era. It may have been 2007, but I'm not 100% sure of exact year as his coupe was supposedly the first. I'm guessing it was the same engine builder. Kelly Frazer got the same thing and his is mechanically sound(but IDK mileage).

On Tom's car, the piston pin circlip came out and the piston pin rubbed the cylinder wall, destroying the cylinder. The engine ran mostly fine, but had a sooty spark plug and highly excessive oil consumption due to the eroded cylinder wall. I believe it was cylinder #2.

This happened from new, and it took a team, posted photos, and lots of social media commentary(pressure) to get John to do the right thing and warranty it. I personally disassembled this engine at Tom's place in Easton PA.

The fault was caused by either a defective piston pin circlip or improper installation ie: circlip not seated in groove. It can happen. If I built the engine, it would have teflon buttons, spiral locs or tru-arc clips in it instead of the cheesy ones that come with the barrel and jug kit.

The heads were stock and un-ported. It wasn't a high-dollar build and I'd be surprised if it was dynamically balanced or blueprinted in any way. It was put together, not carefully assembled by an engine builder.

I have a Jake Raby 2165cc type1 that I flog mercilessly since 2005. I replaced the pistons and barrels and had the valve guides replaced/valve job done at 35k. I sent the heads back to the builder Adrian at Headflow Masters. Normal wear, never split the case, just did a top end. It still runs flawlessly about 8k later after the 50% rebuild.

I would submit that a Pat Downs(or any other professional builder) can easily build a long lasting, balanced, and trouble-free VW engine. I would also submit that JPS did NOT do that in the late 2000s. I'm pretty surprised Eddy's engine lasted this long.

As far as the transmission, it sounds like you were lied to by sociopath John. It was probably a used trans thrown in there and sold as rebuilt. Or it got Chinese bearings, which in my experience don't last. Worst case, install some new bearings(mainshaft bearing is almost always the noise issue), synchros, adjust the shift forks, and back in it goes. And make sure that Rancho welds up 3rd and 4th.

The input shaft is supported by the pilot bearing in the gland nut, some movement is normal when the engine is out. The input shaft is held by a 6mm stud, a splined joint(reverse gear coupler), and a snap ring. I've seen the snap ring come out of its groove, causing the coupler to slide off and the 6mm stud to strip, unscrew, or snap. Always try to use new snap rings.

Replacing the engine is a bigger concern than the trans. The trans is relatively easy. Wishing you good luck in your refreshing efforts, Any additional help I can be, let me know.

If your mechanic is rebuilding the engine, I'd suggest CB Performance for most parts. These days, getting the rotating mass balanced(crank, flywheel, pressure plate, and crank pulley) is important. Also, balancing the pistons/pins to the gram and the rods end-for-end. CBs CNC heads are pretty good, especially for the money. ALWAYS get the CB CNC port-matched manifolds for the heads you get. I prefer Webcam camshafts and either Webcam or Scat lifters. Once you decide on displacement, cam and rockers (ratio) then you can determine chamber volume(and compression ratio).

Cheers.

Don't forget, @DannyP - stock unported (albeit "big valve") heads on those JPS 2332s.

Thank you to all for the insights, responding to Danny’s response, it is the same engine builder as Tom’s and Kelly’s. In fact, I saw their cars while being finished and shipped from JPS. I am taking the transmission to Rancho for rebuild, I guess I am lucky as they are relatively local (only about 20 miles away) from where I live. I am reaching out to Pat (he seems like he has left CB Performance?) to get a replacement engine as my mechanic basically told me everything inside the engine can’t be re used except the engine block. I talked briefly with Pat and waiting for his written response. My mechanic is willing to work with me to either get the engine from Pat or for him to rebuild the engine (except he is very busy and he hasn’t done much other than tear the engine open after about a month) and he is very particular on the parts that he will use as he said that most of the heads on the local shops are junks so he is looking for parts from CB. I guess this is my winter project, I surely missed driving it.

I remember when I bought my car, John has an option on his web site about ported and balanced engine. One guy went with that option but John never gave the guy the report of the result of before and after the procedures were done. I guess, take the money and not do it since there is no way of proving it done or not without tearing up the engine. I am not sure if that is John or the engine builder.

i believe everyone may be aware of my dr jekyll /mr hyde (aka JPS) saga...it's kinda apples and oranges here.... ie: aircooled vs liquid cooled.... and sane person vs maniac issues!!....my car has a well built rancho freeway flier 3:88 pretty bullet proof transaxle & a outfront well built 2.5 liter EJ25 ....kinda different story than the overall  car construction "short cuts & don't care attitude" of the car  builder himself....but i digress...i had type 1 experience as well.....and i agree a well maintained VW engine can have reasonable long life...but like was said here is still 1930 to 1950"s technology and susceptible to it's inherent flaws as well as lurking gremlins..."natures law , not mine"- mr miagi  i like ed's car @Karyadi and he has had a lot of great miles...hope you get it sorted out to your liking    happy motoring 

67,000 miles would be on the low end for a stock 1600 motor when it was stock in a 1971 bug ,

But thats not what most people end up with since  most motors are built on used engine cases with 100k-200k miles on the block.

Add aftermarket parts from 10 different manufacturers that  will not work together as good as an all VW factory parts  and getting 67k miles is  very good ,

Now throw in Big bore , big stroke , high lift cams , HD valve springs, more compression and  the gas you can buy today  and you are building  a "Hand Grenade" !

So treat them right with oil changes , valve adjustments , keeping the temps down  etc

@Karyadi posted:

Thank you to all for the insights, responding to Danny’s response, it is the same engine builder as Tom’s and Kelly’s. In fact, I saw their cars while being finished and shipped from JPS. I am taking the transmission to Rancho for rebuild, I guess I am lucky as they are relatively local (only about 20 miles away) from where I live. I am reaching out to Pat (he seems like he has left CB Performance?) to get a replacement engine as my mechanic basically told me everything inside the engine can’t be re used except the engine block. I talked briefly with Pat and waiting for his written response. My mechanic is willing to work with me to either get the engine from Pat or for him to rebuild the engine (except he is very busy and he hasn’t done much other than tear the engine open after about a month) and he is very particular on the parts that he will use as he said that most of the heads on the local shops are junks so he is looking for parts from CB. I guess this is my winter project, I surely missed driving it.

Pat retired from CB Performance and started his own business. CB isn't building engines now, just selling the parts.

@imperial  damn straight sir! ....even with the best parts available & proper attention to care & maintenance...HEAT will always be the Achilles heel of these high displacement aircooled engines....

@jncspyder posted:

@imperial  damn straight sir! ....even with the best parts available & proper attention to care & maintenance...HEAT will always be the Achilles heel of these high displacement aircooled engines....

But if you have an efficient cooling system(like mine) you never worry.

@Karyadi I was suggesting CB for most parts, they also are equipped to do the balancing, indexing all the parts to each other. Somebody would still have to build it(which could be your mechanic). If you buy a few tools(feeler gauges, micrometer(s), ring compressor, torque wrench, deck height tool, endplay tool, engine stand, and flywheel lock) and measure carefully, it can be done. I realize this may be a lot, but I enjoy putting these engines together. Maybe you, too?

There are plenty of shops(big and small) that can build you up something, especially in California. That is, if your guy can't do it.

@Stan Galat posted:

The stock T1 has a fatal flaw- only 3 main bearings, and a way-out-of-balance crankshaft with no counterweights s

Doesn't a T1 motor have a flat-plane crankshaft?  If so, it should have solid primary balance.

Jason

Then why use a center main bearing at all? If the balance is perfect, then it should never wear out, right? The problem is that it's the one that ALWAYS gets hammered out first.

The throw-weight of the rod journals is carried across the center main bearing- that main bearing saddle is the fulcrum of the lever arms of the crank, and subject to tremendous pressures. Counterbalancing doesn't eliminate this entirely, because the counterweights are not equal to the mass of the rod journals, but it helps a lot.

@Stan Galat posted:

Then why use a center main bearing at all? If the balance is perfect, then it should never wear out, right? The problem with that is that it's the one that ALWAYS gets hammered out first.

The throw-weight of the rod journals is carried across the center main bearing- that main bearing saddle is the fulcrum of the lever arms of the crank, and subject to tremendous pressures. Counterbalancing doesn't eliminate this entirely, because the counterweights are not equal to the mass of the rod journals, but it helps a lot.

So, it sounds like a five-main-bearing crankshaft would go a long way to solving the bending moment problem.

Jason

@JasonC posted:

So, it sounds like a five-main-bearing crankshaft would go a long way to solving the bending moment problem.

Jason

It’s called a subie 2.5L  it has 5 main bearings… looks like a boxter  

https://www.automobilesreview....ngine-design/110412/

@IaM-Ray posted:

It’s called a subie 2.5L  it has 5 main bearings.

... or the 718 series Porsche (which has 6, if you count the one on the cam-chain end).

Note that not only is every rod journal supported on both ends with a main journal, every one of them is counterweighted on both sides of the rod journal, in the same space between the main journals that the rod occupies to reduce rocking couple as much as possible.

There really are very good reasons why mag-case T1 engines don't last 100k mi. The more you ask of them, the harder it is on the case itself (to say nothing of the crankshaft). Adding stroke adds to the problem.

If you want a 100k engine- the place to start is with an aluminum case, through-bolted and fully shuffle-pinned, with a forged, counterweighted crankshaft with T4 center-main bearings.

Now is a good time to post a picture, @LI-Rick.

@Stan Galat posted:

... or the 718 series Porsche (which has 6, if you count the one on the cam-chain end).

Note that not only is every rod journal supported on both ends with a main journal, every one of them is counterweighted on both sides of the rod journal, in the same space between the main journals that the rod occupies to reduce rocking couple as much as possible.

There really are very good reasons why mag-case T1 engines don't last 100k mi. The more you ask of them, the harder it is on the case itself (to say nothing of the crankshaft). Adding stroke adds to the problem.

If you want a 100k engine- the place to start is with an aluminum case, through-bolted and fully shuffle-pinned, with a forged, counterweighted crankshaft with T4 center-main bearings.

Now is a good time to post a picture, @LI-Rick.

I'm beginning to understand the problem.

Jason

@DannyP posted:

But if you have an efficient cooling system(like mine) you never worry.

@Karyadi I was suggesting CB for most parts, they also are equipped to do the balancing, indexing all the parts to each other. Somebody would still have to build it(which could be your mechanic). If you buy a few tools(feeler gauges, micrometer(s), ring compressor, torque wrench, deck height tool, endplay tool, engine stand, and flywheel lock) and measure carefully, it can be done. I realize this may be a lot, but I enjoy putting these engines together. Maybe you, too?

There are plenty of shops(big and small) that can build you up something, especially in California. That is, if your guy can't do it.

Hey Danny,

Too bad you are so far away from me, otherwise you might get the job 😎

@Robert M posted:

Pat retired from CB Performance and started his own business. CB isn't building engines now, just selling the parts.

Hey Robert,

I noticed that CB Performance doesn’t sell turn key engine anymore, I guess all of them were built by Pat. Thanks for pointing me to contact to Pat. I am waiting for his response, we talked briefly yesterday. If the price is not crazy, I might give him the job because my mechanic said that everything inside the engine are toast, the case might be usable, and everything else outside the engine are reusable.

This is a TF-1 engine case.  The driving force behind it was off road racing. Todd told me they would wear out a VW magnesium case in one or two races.  This case lets them run for seasons.  It is shuffled pinned, raised roof, dropped cam to allow strokes up to 90mm, can be bored for 101.6 bore. Notice they do not use main studs, but 12mm through bolts.  They are cast in LA, from 356-T6 aluminum.  Look at the lifter bores, compare that to a VW case.  These cases are really nice!  

@JasonC posted:

I'm beginning to understand the problem.

Jason

I once had a guy (who owned a speedster himself) ask, "why are you trying so hard to gold plate a turd?" He was referring to the center-main conundrum in particular. It hurt a bit when he asked, but it's a good question.

The answer is that I'm a sucker for the underdog, and a glutton for punishment. I cannot lie - I love the Type 1, deeply flawed though it may be.

The T1 can be cheap or it can be fast, but it can't be fast and cheap. No matter what, it'll never be a Honda.

@LI-Rick posted:

This is a TF-1 engine case.  The driving force behind it was off road racing. Todd told me they would wear out a VW magnesium case in one or two races.  This case lets them run for seasons.  It is shuffled pinned, raised roof, dropped cam to allow strokes up to 90mm, can be bored for 101.6 bore. Notice they do not use main studs, but 12mm through bolts.  They are cast in LA, from 356-T6 aluminum.  Look at the lifter bores, compare that to a VW case.  These cases are really nice!  

I was hoping you'd post!

That, my friends is a legit high-performance Type 1 case.

@Stan Galat posted:

The stock T1 has a fatal flaw- only 3 main bearings, and a way-out-of-balance crankshaft with no counterweights supported only by flimsy case halves made of soft metal. It starts hammering out the center main the day you drive it for the first time. Balancing helps any engine, but it's absolutely critical for helping a T1 live a longer, happier life.

@JasonC posted:

So, it sounds like a five-main-bearing crankshaft would go a long way to solving the bending moment problem.

Jason

It certainly would, but that's not going to happen. The stock crankshaft has no counterweights. In Formula Vee, lightening and balancing of all reciprocating components is CRITICAL to surviving. The center main crank journal is cut 0.001" to give a tiny bit of room for that whipping and flex to happen. The engines used to only go to 5600-5800rpm, but with better valve control(springs) they can go to 6500rpm today before floating is a problem. Of course, having a 64mm stroke and very light 77mm pistons definitely helps(1192cc).

I would guess that an aluminum case might help instead of mag, but IDK about that.

I do know that a forged and counterweighted crankshaft helps greatly.

But, you know, we have to eat the food that's on the table, not the food we wish for(except Rick, he's in the kitchen barking orders to the chef!).

I don't know about the 4 cylinder 718, but the Porsche 6 cylinder cars actually are built with a very strong girdle for the crank. 7 main bearings!

"They are cast in LA, from 356-T6 aluminum."

Would that pass the P inspection.

@Karyadi posted:

Hey Danny,

Too bad you are so far away from me, otherwise you might get the job 😎

I appreciate that, and I would be honored. If you are on FB, there is an aircooled builders group. There are quite a few knowledgeable folks on there, and many ARE close to you.

@LI-Rick posted:

This is a TF-1 engine case.  The driving force behind it was off road racing. Todd told me they would wear out a VW magnesium case in one or two races.  This case lets them run for seasons.  It is shuffled pinned, raised roof, dropped cam to allow strokes up to 90mm, can be bored for 101.6 bore. Notice they do not use main studs, but 12mm through bolts.  They are cast in LA, from 356-T6 aluminum.  Look at the lifter bores, compare that to a VW case.  These cases are really nice!  

Do I dare ask how much?

@edsnova posted:

Do I dare ask how much?

$1750.  A few years ago when an AutoLinea aluminum high roof case was $600, these seemed expensive.  Now, with the Autolinea cases around $1200, these seem much more reasonable.

Tell him how long you waited, Rick.