That right there ^^^ @Jim Kelly
My Grundy policy is coming up for renewal in August for $300.
I mentioned above I would like to be with Hagerty so I just did an online quote - $720!
Maybe a Speedster replica isn't a good fit for the website quote choices but there was a checkbox to indicate my 1972 Beetle replicated another car.
All this discussion had me look at any Grundy driving limitations. There was a related document listed in the package I got but the document itself wasn't included. So, I asked my agent for it.
It says:
It is agreed and understood that the following definition is added to the policy:
“Collector vehicle” means a private passenger auto or motorcycle that:
1. Is maintained solely for use in exhibitions, parades, club activities, or other functions of public interest.
2. Is not used for regular driving to work, school, errands, shopping, general transportation, secondary or back-up transportation, business or commercial purposes, except for limited pleasure use.
I wonder how broadly "limited pleasure use" might be interpreted.
I previously thought Hagerty was more restrictive regarding use but now I think Grundy may be.
I am still inclined to take my chances with the "limited pleasure use" interpretation instead of spending more than twice as much.
@Jim Kelly posted:State Farm's definition of an agree value policy aside, an agree value policy pays the covered amount in case of total or theft.
When SF says above " . . . and the car's condition has not deteriorated because of abuse or neglect", that's depreciation. A true actual value policy has no provision for depreciation. The agreed value is the amount the insurance company pays.
@DannyP posted:That right there ^^^ @Jim Kelly
Fixed it for you. Page breaks sometimes mess up the conversation!
@Michael McKelvey posted:My Grundy policy is coming up for renewal in August for $300.
I mentioned above I would like to be with Hagerty so I just did an online quote - $720!
Maybe a Speedster replica isn't a good fit for the website quote choices but there was a checkbox to indicate my 1972 Beetle replicated another car.
All this discussion had me look at any Grundy driving limitations. There was a related document listed in the package I got but the document itself wasn't included. So, I asked my agent for it.
It says:
It is agreed and understood that the following definition is added to the policy:
“Collector vehicle” means a private passenger auto or motorcycle that:
1. Is maintained solely for use in exhibitions, parades, club activities, or other functions of public interest.
2. Is not used for regular driving to work, school, errands, shopping, general transportation, secondary or back-up transportation, business or commercial purposes, except for limited pleasure use.I wonder how broadly "limited pleasure use" might be interpreted.
I previously thought Hagerty was more restrictive regarding use but now I think Grundy may be.
I am still inclined to take my chances with the "limited pleasure use" interpretation instead of spending more than twice as much.
You're ALWAYS coming from or going to a car show. Because everywhere you park a car show breaks out. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
Every time this conversation rolls around, I'm amazed all over again.
It would seem that the primary concern for you gentlemen is whether or not you will receive full market value compensation in the event that your pride and joy is declared a total loss. This is one component of insurance, and I would contend is (or should be) a very, very small consideration.
My primary concern is in liability protection. Yours should be too. A policy that limits use in any way is a cudgel waiting to beat you to death in the event of a bad (at fault) liability claim. If you kill or main somebody with your car, the very least of your concerns is going to be making sure it gets repainted with Glasruit rather than Sikkens paint. Your concern is (or should be) liability exposure.
If your policy says, "for shows and parades only" - sure they'll pay for the scratches you get when you go off-road, but are they going to pay the personal injury liability claim when your unbelted passenger is ejected and dies or is paralyzed?
Big claims get close scrutiny, and the older I get the more I like living in my house. I'd rather not lose it risking exposure by improperly licensing or insuring my car.
State Farm can depreciate my car if they can prove abuse or neglect. If they knock it down too much, I'll hire a lawyer and we'll get it squared up. State Farm has no usage restrictions, and they pay liability claims all day, every day. I'm sticking with that kind of coverage.
Do what you want. I'm treating this like a real car, not like a piece of garage art.
@Michael McKelvey posted:I wonder how broadly "limited pleasure use" might be interpreted...
I am still inclined to take my chances with the "limited pleasure use" interpretation instead of spending more than twice as much.
That was the sticking point for me. I had Grundy when I lived in Las Vegas and worked at Mandalay Bay. When I called to clarify, I asked them what if I was "limited pleasure using" driving to Mandaly Bay for dinner, they said no, it wouldn't be covered.
Having a mistrust of insurance agents, I decided I didn't want to take a chance. It might be hard to explain what car show you were going to at 10:00 on a Wednesday morning.
But, like I said, I use both my cars in a more traditional "collector car" mode now so it might work. Back then I'd alternate the Alfa, 911, and 968 as daily drivers and didn't want to chance having a claim for a parking lot accident get denied.
@Stan Galat posted:Every time this conversation rolls around, I'm amazed all over again.
It would seem that the primary concern for you gentlemen is whether or not you will receive full market value compensation in the event that your pride and joy is declared a total loss. This is one component of insurance, and I would contend is (or should be) a very, very small consideration.
My primary concern is in liability protection. Yours should be too. A policy that limits use in any way is a cudgel waiting to beat you to death in the event of a bad (at fault) liability claim. If you kill or main somebody with your car, the very least of your concerns is going to be making sure it gets repainted with Glasruit rather than Sikkens paint. Your concern is (or should be) liability exposure.
If your policy says, "for shows and parades only" - sure they'll pay for the scratches you get when you go off-road, but are they going to pay the personal injury liability claim when your unbelted passenger is ejected and dies or is paralyzed?
Big claims get close scrutiny, and the older I get the more I like living in my house. I'd rather not lose it risking exposure by improperly licensing or insuring my car.
State Farm can depreciate my car if they can prove abuse or neglect. If they knock it down too much, I'll hire a lawyer and we'll get it squared up. State Farm has no usage restrictions, and they pay liability claims all day, every day. I'm sticking with that kind of coverage.
Do what you want. I'm treating this like a real car, not like a piece of garage art.
IIRC, both my Hagarty and Grundy policies stipulated liability coverage commensurate with my "normal" car policy. Same with SF, but all my policies are with them now.
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FWIW, my feelings about this are Stan's, almost exactly.
I've voiced them before, but folks with agreed value policies usually reply that they've had great experiences and have always been paid promptly for claims.
There is no right or wrong here - it's just that we all see this issue differently. I am willing to eat thousands in the settlement payment for some lost toys. Many folks are not. But I would be devastated by a multi-million dollar liability claim. For me, that's what the insurance is really for. (We also have an umbrella liability policy that covers our auto insurance).
I know I will change no one's opinion about this, and don't post this to do so. Just explaining how I arrived at the decision I made.
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@Stan Galat and @Sacto Mitch, great points about liability. While I've got Hagerty agreed upon insurance and good liability on the speedster, I've got everything else with Allstate including a huge umbrella policy. You've made me think I need to see how the umbrella would work in the event of a speedster claim. Thanks
My liability limits are increased pretty well on both my conventional auto and Hagerty "Porsche" policies. The only one with minimum liability is the motorcycle, because, motorcycle.
Unfortunately, one must protect oneself in this litigious society.
As far as usage, with Grundy you can't even take the wife to dinner or grab a quart of milk. I wouldn't chance that. Getting the cheapest bare-minimum price is not worth the risk here fellas.
With Hagerty and my three actual real-life claims, the first was on the way home from a dinner date, the second at a restaurant on the way home from Lime Rock Vintage fest, and the third on a Sunday drive. Hagerty was given all this information at the initial phone conversations.
I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion either, just giving the facts as they happened to me.
Debbie Downer here. Not to beat the dead horse, but it's not the limits I'd be concerned with. It's the restrictions. The devil (as they say) is always hanging out in the fine print.
Let's hypothetically assume that your policy expressly states, "shows and parades only". You could have $2M in liability coverage, but if you get in an "at fault" accident and kill somebody on a Wed. afternoon kale smoothie run - there isn't going to be a normal adjustment procedure. There's going to be a full-blown investigation. Once it is determined that your use was outside the terms of the policy, you'd have no coverage whatsoever.
The insurance company may be reluctant to pay your $500 or $50,000 claim - but when their exposures get into the many hundreds of thousands of dollars, they get the big guns out. Insurance companies are about making money, and paying enormous claims when they don't strictly have to is outside their MO. They aren't your "good neighbor" - they are some of the largest companies on earth and they are regulated heavily. They keep the money they've collected in premiums by sidestepping large claims when they can.
I'm even concerned when the car isn't licensed properly for this very reason. I couldn't care less about the quasi-legality of "alternative" titles and registration, because the entire idea of asking the state for permission to use my own property kinda' sticks in my craw. But I always try to look at the downside of any decision I'm making and the downside here is enormous.
A "fix it" ticket? A triviality. An impounded/crushed car? A lot worse, but doable. Tax evasion (some of you know what I'm talking about here)? My state is pretty humorless regarding sales tax - I'm betting yours is too.
... but the ultimate would be to rack up an enormous liability claim and have coverage denied because of improper registration or use. If I've got good liability coverage, I've got a great legal team (the insurance company) working on my behalf (and theirs) at no expense to me. Just the legal fees of fighting a liability lawsuit could sink most of us, to say nothing of the actual judgement.
I've also got a big umbrella policy, both for my business and for my personal side. The amount I pay in all insurance across the board (business and personal) is a figure that 20 year old me would have found impossible, embarrassing, and fearful.
But I've been a part in a large "at fault" accident before. The value of insurance is not how well it fixes your scratched paint, it's in how well it protects your assets.
Amen Stan! I had a long conversation with both Hagerty and American Modern (GEICO) about the definition of "pleasure driving". I am very comfortable with this since I do not commute for work so taking the wife for dinner or a drive up to Wisconsin is covered, up to 3k miles per year. I also had them duplicate my State Farm liability coverage, which includes a healthy umbrella policy. I worked pretty hard for what I have and would like to keep it in case of an accident.
When I set up insurance on the Coupe with Hagerty they gave me several cost options based on expected mileage and didn't impose restrictions like shows and parades or whatever. It can't be my daily driver and it has to be stored in a garage, but that's all I recall.
@Lane Anderson posted:When I set up insurance on the Coupe with Hagerty they gave me several cost options based on expected mileage and didn't impose restrictions like shows and parades or whatever. It can't be my daily driver and it has to be stored in a garage, but that's all I recall.
I’d advise you to read the fine print in the paperwork they send you with your policy. I assumed the same from the conversations I had setting up my policy with Grundy. It was only when I read the policy (because of worries like Stan described above) that I discovered how restrictive the restrictions actually were.*
Not saying Hagerty is the same, just advising you read the fine print. What is it they say? “Trust but verify?”
As for Stan’s post: those same conditions exist for me whether I’d be driving my Spyder or my Smart. Both through State Farm, both with the same liability coverage. Only the Spyder is an Agreed Value policy.
*Another reason I quit Grundy for Progressive, then State Farm: One of the restrictions on the Grundy policy was locked storage. I asked them what if I went in a road trip and my car was stolen from a hotel parking lot. Not covered.
I just want to thank this thread for putting me on notice of increasing my agreed value insurance. I currently have CHUBB insurance (for vintage, secondary cars), and I was paying about $150/year at an agreed replacement value of $30,000 for my 2015 Vintage Speedster.
I called them yesterday, supplied them with the BaT page showing all of the replicas that have been sold this year, and they agree to raise my agreed value to $60,000! (it will only cost me about $300 more per year)
Incredible!
@Stan Galat You and others have referred to improper registration several times. I’m certain you and others are referring to pan based cars still registered as VWs. I’m not sure why this would be an issue. American Modern and, I would guess, all of the other insurance companies are well aware of what our cars are and are not. When I signed up with American Modern they asked exactly what it was. I told them it was a fiberglass reproduction of a 1957 Porsche Speedster and that it was built on a 1960 VW chassis. I also told them it was still registered as a 1960 VW. That was 100% fine with them as they were well aware of fiberglass pan based replicas and how they were registered. I also provided them with photos of the interior, exterior, engine, and a copy of the registration.
I don’t see how they would be able to come back at me for a claim and say they didn’t know it wasn’t a 1960 VW. Either way, if it was a 1960 VW and it was insured for $30K then they agreed to insure it for $30K. The DMV here in California wouldn’t know if I have an insurance claim for a non-accident related reason until I file a release of liability because the vehicle was totaled in a fire or some other non-accident related reason. If I was in an accident then they know I was in an accident but that’s all they’d know.
@Robert M: I understand your point, and I personally really don't care one way or another how anybody chooses to title, register, or insure their car. But to belabor the same point I've been trying to make, I'm not talking about "being insured for $30K". I'm talking about the important coverage - the liability coverage.
The one thing I know about insurance is that when the claim gets really big (like "limit of coverage" big), insurance companies are looking for any reason possible to not be held liable. If your insurance company knows exactly what the car is, and chooses to insure it as it's registered - that's great. I'd encourage you to get in writing that they know exactly what it is, and that they are good with insuring it as it is. Maybe they've already done that, and if so, I commend you for your foresight.
I may be worried about nothing, but I've made a life of trying to find potential problems before they become actual ones.
Gee if your worried about liability just get a ryder on your house insurance that includes an umbrella clause for your cars for X millions, you choose, of liability and it will protect you & your assets.
@IaM-Ray posted:Gee if your worried about liability just get a ryder on your house insurance that includes an umbrella clause for your cars for X millions, you choose, of liability and it will protect you & your assets.
See above. I have not one, but two umbrellas.
My experience with a large claim was that umbrellas are nowhere near as comprehensive as you think. Again - if there's any reason for an insurance company to deny your claim, they will.
Sorry, I missed that point, but it reminds me of the contract limits for water or sewer back ups that they often charge you when you finally take the time to get clarity you find out unless you have a full stop valve at the edge or the house your limit is a ridiculous low amount for which you pay dearly yearly. FInally you just remove the coverage on that area.
@IaM-Ray posted:Gee if your worried about liability just get a ryder on your house insurance that includes an umbrella clause for your cars for X millions, you choose, of liability and it will protect you & your assets.
I have an umbrella policy, but most of them won't cover our "vintage" cars, and they are much more expensive than getting the collector car insurance available. I also know that most insurance companies will try to get out of covering anything under most policies, so it's best to cover your bases.
@RayRay19 posted:I have an umbrella policy, but most of them won't cover our "vintage" cars, and they are much more expensive than getting the collector car insurance available. I also know that most insurance companies will try to get out of covering anything under most policies, so it's best to cover your bases.
State Farm will extend umbrella coverage to your replica - assuming your car's coverage is with State Farm.
I know I sound like a SF fanboy, and I can assure you I'm not - their claims department and adjusters are notorious. SF will delay processing a claim often to the point where you will often need to threaten legal action before they'll settle. I have them because whether they want to or not, they treat these cars as close to "normal" as is possible, as per the language of their contract.
The story I got was that one of the State Farm VPs had a Cobra replica, and found out he couldn't insure his own car with his own company - whereupon he set out to change that.
I have friends and relatives in the insurance business. Insurance companies are really good at two things: designing and selling coverage for losses that are unlikely, and getting out of paying claims.
So when you actually do have an elephant step on your piano on a Tuesday on the 13th floor, you find out that they count the basement as floor #1 and they won't pay because you're on the 14th floor as far as they're concerned.
@Stan Galat posted:State Farm will extend umbrella coverage to your replica - assuming your car's coverage is with State Farm.
I know I sound like a SF fanboy, and I can assure you I'm not - their claims department and adjusters are notorious. SF will delay processing a claim often to the point where you will often need to threaten legal action before they'll settle. I have them because whether they want to or not, they treat these cars as close to "normal" as is possible, as per the language of their contract.
The story I got was that one of the State Farm VPs had a Cobra replica, and found out he couldn't insure his own car with his own company - whereupon he set out to change that.
I asked about it when I got my policy and SF doesn’t offer umbrella policies in UT. Maybe I should ask again, because they didn’t use to offer agreed value policy on collector cars, either.
My understanding of is umbrella policy is that it covers you, and it’s not tied to any asset or activity.
@Napa Paul posted:This is what I just received from State Farm:
Paul,
Our policies are agreed value, here is the State Farm definition:
“When the agent recommends antique or classic car insurance based on eligibility, the insured and State Farm® will agree on the value of the car. If the car experiences a covered total loss claim, State Farm will pay the agreed-upon value, rather than the actual cash value of the car as long as there is no prior damage to the car, parts have not been removed, and the car's condition has not deteriorated because of abuse or neglect.”
Now, all I'm waiting on is the premium quote to continue with my existing policy at the higher valuation.
For anyone interested, here's what State Farm did after I requested the value of my VS 2008-build replica be increased from $30,000 to $50,000: My Annual Premium was increased by 33.3% ($303.58 to $404.80) and State Farm's Endorsement 6171CJ was issued stating : "ANTIQUE OR CLASSIC MOTOR VEHICLE (AGREED VALUE). VEHICLE VALUE $50,000." Everything else (Coverage & Limits) remained the same.
As I said before, I don't know "if" or "how much" the fact that "I've been with State Farm since 2011, they insure my 3 motor vehicles and my home, and I've never had a claim" had upon this Premium adjustment. 
It probably did, but I felt it best to not "waken that sleeping dog" just to confirm it. 