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Air Cooled or H2O?

WOLFGANGWOLFGANG'89 CMC FWB, FL Supporting Member
Howard Bobrow made observation in regards to Dale Bates new IM which I have pondered too! Howard said "Maybe Im learning disabled(not anything wrong with that), but while I respect progress, I fail to see the attraction of H20 cars in this application. It goes against everything these cars have represented for decades. Now you can all shout me down! Tomm, you first! Dale your car is as beautiful a build as IM has ever produced. Why hoe the same ground.... you want more power Do a 427 Cobra!!!" I'm from Jersey too - so infected with the stuff dumped in '60's in the pine barrens which I ingested in the drinking water. I've always thought the Subaru was ideal engine for a Speedster. It is a flat boxer engine of about same rear weight as an aircooled one. It's just more modern and requires less maintenance (computer controlled fuel/emissions managment, EFI, stock turbo) with lots more HP for the $. With radiator up front it would even help with weight distribution too. (I've seen some conversiosn where the Subbie is in the back seat too ahead of the transaxel -- oh boy trunk space and 50/50 weight distro!) I did look at Cary's (Spl Ed/Beck) exhibit in '08 Carlisle with the Audi 1.8 and was impressed. It does seem to get away from the Porsche idea even more than the Subbi conversion --- as the engine is a straight 4 and rather upright which seems to give a higher center of gravity.

Hey, maybe it a mute discussion as we'll all be driving electric powered cars in 5 years. Which brings up another beef - a Prius isn't green transportation - a bicycle is!

1957 CMC Classic Speedster

    in Ft Walton Beach, FL

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WOLFGANGWOLFGANG'89 CMC FWB, FL Supporting Member
Howard Bobrow made observation in regards to Dale Bates new IM which I have pondered too! Howard said "Maybe Im learning disabled(not anything wrong with that), but while I respect progress, I fail to see the attraction of H20 cars in this application. It goes against everything these cars have represented for decades. Now you can all shout me down! Tomm, you first! Dale your car is as beautiful a build as IM has ever produced. Why hoe the same ground.... you want more power Do a 427 Cobra!!!" I'm from Jersey too - so infected with the stuff dumped in '60's in the pine barrens which I ingested in the drinking water. I've always thought the Subaru was ideal engine for a Speedster. It is a flat boxer engine of about same rear weight as an aircooled one. It's just more modern and requires less maintenance (computer controlled fuel/emissions managment, EFI, stock turbo) with lots more HP for the $. With radiator up front it would even help with weight distribution too. (I've seen some conversiosn where the Subbie is in the back seat too ahead of the transaxel -- oh boy trunk space and 50/50 weight distro!) I did look at Cary's (Spl Ed/Beck) exhibit in '08 Carlisle with the Audi 1.8 and was impressed. It does seem to get away from the Porsche idea even more than the Subbi conversion --- as the engine is a straight 4 and rather upright which seems to give a higher center of gravity.

Hey, maybe it a mute discussion as we'll all be driving electric powered cars in 5 years. Which brings up another beef - a Prius isn't green transportation - a bicycle is!
tommtomm
Stop mining and burning coal and electric vehicles are then really green. Make the engine in the prius a clean burning diesel or even better, a nat gas burner and it would be green given the no coal assertion. Storage of energy in eco sound media like flywheels as opposed to batteries which are energy intensive to make and hazardous to dispose of would be a great area of research to re-start. What ever happened to hydrogen powered cars? Clean burning and you could set up a solar powered H2 factory anywhere there is water (ocean) and the sun shines.

Tomm
M mickey356
Thats classic!! A "green" tricycle carrying cases of bottled water!!? If there is ANYTHING more wasteful and bad for the environment than bottled water? More plastic, more fuel to transport, etc..... I think driving a Cobra with a 427 in it is more environmentally freindly than being someone who drinks water from a plastic bottle, but as I've said before, I'm a different breed of cat.
Hopefully those are bottles going to recycling. Nonetheless, it still shows comsumption and therefore and continued demand for it. Get a Brita.
WOLFGANGWOLFGANG'89 CMC FWB, FL Supporting Member
Glad you guys brought it back to the core issue of air cooled vs H2O! I thought the thread was starting to drift already! My neighbor is engineer for VEPCO (Dominion Resources). He says govt is demanding they build wind mills in WV to generate electricity - he said usage is, of course, on VA coast and tremendous amounts of power are lost trasnmitting it from WV. Same reason the coal is shipped from WV vs being burnt there to generate electricity.

Anyone remember the short lived UK TV series called "Connections" with James Burke?
O orthohbb1
My original comments about Dale's car had my tongue firmly planted inside my cheek. All the same, while I respect all types of 4/2 wheel rides, from mild to wild, there has always been the "rightness" of a build, more than the "correctness" of one. Certainly, I took liberties when I built my IM, with a flat 6 Porsche, but I felt that at least I was in the "family", which was part of my fun in doing it. There is something very special, when I wind that motor out, and hear the "mechanism" which makes a unique sound. To this, and to all, I raise my glass.
PVenuti(356FAN)PVenuti(356FAN)
I went the H20 route for several reasons. The main reason was to learn something new. I knew I could work on an air cooled engine and the carbs I have owned several real P cars and learned there. Having to learn how to work on a fuel injected motor with an ECU and timing belt has taught me things that I would never invest the time in learning for my daily driver.

Also I like having the heat dot get me wrong having heat comes at the cost of radiator fluids and hoses pumps thermostats etc. But I was driving my car in December before the salt hit the road top down heat blaring.

Potential reliability. Other than Subaru
FM Former Member
Howard, I have long admired the craftsmanship and skill that went into making your exceptionally beautiful car. I think the marriage of that 911 engine, gearbox, suspension and chassis design are amazing, the colors are brilliant, and the engineers who made it happen are geniuses.

However, I have to draw the line somewhere. If you think a fancy-pants coat of blue paint, those extra two cylinders and shiny red turbo housing will help you in an actual blood-and-guts shootout ... well ... Bring it. I'm willing to bet that my tired, old, gas-snorting, oil-leaking, noise-making, primered jalopy will scare your car right back into the garage when the two get a chance to eyeball each other. In fact, maybe I'll just paint a shark's mouth on the nose for good measure.

How's THAT for tongue-in-cheek? :)

But seriously, if we had an eighth-mile, very straight track, you don't use third, fourth or fifth, we load your car up with bowling balls and let the air out of one of your tires ... I could take you down.

(I'm KILLING myself over here! Is it time to load up for Carlisle yet? AUUUUGH!)

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FM Former Member
I would love to -- maybe we can hook that up. If you park outside this year, save me a spot next to you!

Kidding aside, you're right about the sounds the air-cooled cars make being half the enjoyment. I can honestly say that I find the engine noise in my car to be therapeutic. Same goes for the smells associated with driving an open car that was designed before emissions were a real concern.

I looked closely at the water-cooled cars that Carey brought a couple years ago, and from the seats back, I don't know if there was enough appeal in the maintenance-free (relatively) aspect of them to sacrifice my fan in favor of water-cooled quietude. My initial take was that I liked the cleanliness of the setup, but I think I've come full-circle again. I hope he continues his association with Jake for a long time to come.
Gordon NicholsGordon NicholsMassachusetts 1993 CMC Supporting Member
Once again, I find myself building something very similar to what Dale will have - a Speedster-ish car with a 1.8L water-cooled Audi under the covers. My drivetrain will be built by my son, Chris, who is noted for running 2L mills well in excess of 600hp at the wheels.

What I end up with, I don't know - something North of 300hp at the wheels? But I do know this.......we're building it because we can and the build is more than half the fun. I've already been strengthening the pan (Yes, Stan....It'll be PAN BASED!) and we both guarantee that it'll be one kick-ass car when done, both in a straight line and on any track in America.

Nothing wrong in thinking outside the box - or even creating a whole new box for a change.

Besides......If I want to hear a "Boxer" engine, I can take a ride in Pearl, right??

gn
O orthohbb1
Dale, I'll take a bit of wood!! I agree with you, it takes a really good co-pilot to put up with, and smile through 100 degree heat through Bakersfield in mid-summer. Henry will build you a great car as you well know. I have my Fuchs, directly because of you, my fog lamps, with matching grills due to Jim Ward, and a pea-shooter exhaust/navy blue top via George Brown. Great inspiration for those who have built afterwards. Can't wait to see if your next build is "Levitra" like.
FM Former Member
Dale,

Love you my friend. Your Black car is about as close to the perfect replica one can get. I hope it all works out. You know you can keep the license plate and transfer it to the new Roadster. It's your trademark....;-)

BTW A/C is for whimps even in 110 degree heat. Bill's idea with the Bimini top is the perfect solution. I'll be the trend setter with a Speedster.....as Joel says "fun with cars"
M mickey356
Hey! I wanted this thread to go "Green"!

Ok, Ok, we'll talk about air-cooled vs H2O. Fine.

Seriously, I think it all revolves around what works for the owner, what they'll be using the car for, where they live, and on and on..... I would LOVE to have one of Careys watercooled Spyders. And if I could get him to put the same 2.0 liter turbo in thats in my wifes car it'd be all I could ever want. I'd drive it year roundI only need heat (don't like AC). The mileage would probably be incredible too.
As much as I love the sound of my air cooled engine(s), I have some apprehention when it comes to driving them long distances. I think there'd be a little more confidence with a waterpumper.
I have two air cooled cars and since I've had both of them it's been very rare to have access to both at the same time because one is down for some reason or another. For me, I'd like to have one that I can count on everyday no matter what. And being able to go to the local Audi, Subaru, VW dealer for parts would certainly save time. Lord knows how much time my cars have sat waiting for crap to be shipped from Cali.
FM Former Member
I can't speak re: speedster or spyder in regard to air vs water other than cars I've worked on. I prefer the water cooled Subaru engine as it's easy to work on, bullet proof and well proven. I do more work on VW's so keep your VW engine so I can work on it

I can speak in regard to air cooled vs water cooled in a sand rail. Many years ago, I swore by VW powered sand cars. Every one of my car was air cooled and ranged from a 1200 cc in my first car all the way up to a 2276 turbo VW engine.

When I switched to a turbo Subaru with fuel injection back in 1996, I quickly realized that I'd never go back to air cooled/carburetor VW. More responsive, more durable, no carb problems, no ignition problems and baically less money and time to operate.

Ron ORon O1984/2010 IM, B.C. Canada
Thanks Terry.
When I was planning my IM rebuild I considered going with a Subie engine. After looking at a couple of Subie swaps online I decided it was too much work and too expense-I went with an air cooled engine. If I was ordering a new roadster I go with H2O power. I don't care about Porsche authenticity. Hell, if I had the money I'd ask SAS to build me a mid-engine V8 powered roadster. The only problem is I'd probably be too old to drive the car by the time it was completed :-)
Ron ORon O1984/2010 IM, B.C. Canada
Terry, I like the sound of that Flowmaster (at least on the mid 70s Camero in the video clip).
I'm looking for something fairly loud, but without the highway drone. So far I've looked at a Magnaflow (in/out same side), and a Dynomax (in/out same side).
How does the Flowmaster rate, loud-wise, and is there any highway drone?
I like the way the muffler is mounted just under/behind the rear lip. Unfortunately, I can't install it that way on my car. I have a custom (straight out the back) merged header.
thanks
Ron
Terry NuckelsTerry Nuckels'04 JPS Speedster NorCal
Ron,
It is downright nasty sounding! Not quite as obnoxious or low as the Magnaflow but really angry. It's not as loud as the Magnaflow either. No drone, but you definitely hear it when you get on it.
It's not super restrictive. In fact, I had to increase my venturi size to even things out. The thing I like best is I don't have to remove the friggin' thing to adjust my valves.
When Dale and I are driving together the sound is like a symphony.
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