Alternate Engine Idea...

So I was in my favorite VW shop today to pick up a new shift rod bushing and was poking my nose around the engine shop.

My engine builder was in the process of completing the assembly on a Vanagon "Waterboxer" engine. You see where I'm going with this right?

We got to talking:

Advantages:

120 HP stock
Fuel Injection
Very Reliable
Overall smaller package (no air cooling tin)
Potential for real heating system

Disadvantages:

Needs a radiator
Weight



One of the nice things about the SB kit is the entire rear end suspension can be removed for complete access to the back of the car from the back seat to the tail lights. With that stuff out of the way I could mount a 16" X 8" radiator where the current "firewall" is and run a 6" duct from in front of each rear wheel to feed it fresh air. The air would then exhaust out the deck lid grill. I could then run hoses up to just behind one of the front wheel and mount a heating system there.

I think this could be an interesting setup and really make my car unique.

What do you think,

Jerome

Ok so you moved up from a 30 year old engine to a 20 year old one. A truely modern Subaru engine would be a far better conversion IMHO.

BUT, did you know that you can machine the waterjackets off, deck the case, do a tad of machine work and make it aircooled???

I have done it, made a 160BHP engine 100% from STOCK VW PARTS!(from various engines of course)

Wow! Sounds like a lot of work and fabricating! Watch you don't chip that paint. If only you had that conversation months ago. I know! You can build another one. Yeah, that's the ticket.

BD

But you know......it would be kinda cool to have a water-boxer in a Speedster...........gn

What's the matter Jerome....things going too well for you? Motor running too good? Bored? Needed a major/big job..or like the rest of us...never satisfied?
Ron
You'll never guess what I'm looking at....a V8 powered Miata! My wife says I'm an idiot (she's still pissed at me for selling the IM), and my wife is a good judge of character.

Actually, a V8 Miata would be nice, if the overall balance of the car wasn't thrown off by the extra weight up front. On the other hand, a V8 in the back of a speedster would be interesting, also, as long as you didn't have to go around any corners.

I think the Kennedy Engineering adapter plate with the liquid cooled suby is the way to go. Oh god mine is running perfectly and I talk this way about her....I am ashamed

Last year at the Redwood City 4th july car show their was and 911 with a 350 v8. I'll post pictures if he shows up this year.

There was a guy at Knott's who had a miata with a corvette motor. He said it bolts right in with no cutting. $30k + car.
Terry

I think if you gotta have a miata, keep it in the family, put in an RX7 twin turbo. Not as much weight and what there is is farther aft. 250 hp in a miata should do ya.
ed

Miata with V8 conversion using the aluminum V8 from a TR8 or Land Rover would keep the weight down; another good engine conversion would be the German Ford 2.8 liter V6 as used in the German Capris. The 2.8 conversion also works well in Fiat 124 Spiders.

Those numbers sound backwards to me. Ya think the front would be more than 51% too. Hou'se about weldin' three Harley 112 cu.in. motors together. Jesse would love to do the pipes.

BD

This one has a Ford 5 litre motor in it. Ad says that the weight balance is 49% front, 51% rear. Ford 5 speed tranny, with a turbo RX 7 rear-end. I wonder about those front/rear weigh balance percentages.
Ron

If anyone is interested, I can put them in touch with a fellow here in San Diego who built and drove (on the street) a supercharged Chevy small block housed in a perfectly stock bodied '51 Nash Metropolitan (stock except for two 12 inch tires tucked inside the tubbed rear end.
The same guy followed this up with a tiny Sony electric truck (designed for shop floor delivery and used strictly INSIDE large manufacturing plants). He added a 400 HP small block ahead of the rear axle. The whole car weighs about 2000 pounds and the driver sits over the front wheels. He's done the 1/8 mile drags with the front wheels off the ground the whole distance. It is street legal.
Finally, the Glass Station in Lemon Grove makes a tube chassis with a front mounted V8. A VW body bolts onto it. Now if we shorten the the chassis about 11 inches then a speedster body should . . . .

Yea, but would the owners of real 356s still respect you?
Ron

I love the grunt of a v8 but after building/owning a 280z with
a small block chevy I would test drive someone elses car first
to see if it lived up to your expectations. Weight shift during
turning/braking took the fun out of mine, steering wheel effort
was also "truck like". My friend built a 280z right next to mine
using the stock turbo engine, bored out, stroked using a diesel
crank, turbo upgrades and such. The finished package was much,
much faster, more user friendly and maintained the well balanced agility of the original car.

I hear you Bruce. I'm proabably going to go and test drive it this weekend. Usually, when you modify a vehicle there are always pluses and minuses. Add a V8 motor to a four cylinder car and something has to give somewhere else. The big question is, do the pluses outweigh the minuses?
Ron

Ron: I remember, when I was a kid, a friend stuffed a 389 V-8 into an Austin Healey 3000 body (tried to make an AC Cobra replica, I guess!!). He beat the inner wheel wells out to clear the exhaust manifolds, ran the headers out through the inner liners and down under the floor, shoe-horned a Ford Falcon radiator in and found that a Buick Wildcat 4-speed fit like a glove..........

The first thing we noticed was that it would go into massive rear-wheel-hop with even moderate throttle, and I'm not talking a little hop, here, but rear-end-jumping-all-over-the-street while chattering your teeth out stuff.

Second thing noticed was that he could get SOLID rubber in fourth at anything over 50mph for about ten feet, then the aforementioned wheel hop came into play and all you got were rubber dots all over the road.

About that time he noticed that it was REALLY hot in the cockpit and stopped to see if there was something on fire - nothing was, but that car, with exhaust headers and mufflers a mere inch or so under the floor pans on both sides wasn't just hot under your seat, it was the "Tierra del Fuego" in a British car body. Driving faster to "cool the headers with more air" didn't work, either - all that did was make them hotter, along with your ass in the seat.

Then, during the "drive faster to cool it off" test, he hit his first real corner at speed and discovered what understeer really was as it plowed right off the road and onto someone's front lawn. He had the wheel turned most of the way to the right, but with those skinny wire rims, the car made a gentle right arc but went more-or-less straight and the rear end never varied from that straight line, just following all that engine weight onto the lawn.

Interestingly, at least in a straight line, the Healey brakes worked pretty well and it stopped just about the same as with that big Healey 6 cylinder in there. Good thing, too, or he would have ended up in their living room beyond the front lawn.

Great concept car - small, nimble body, big-ass V-8, etc. Too bad it didn't work out as well as a Cobra but, then again.........

The 289 cobras handled a whole lot better than the 427s. I never drove a 427, but I was on the track at the same time with them. They were not for the faint of heart. The 289 I drove was a nicely balanced, just a bit of understeer but at the speeds they would go thats not a bad thing. the 427s had to be bulled around a race track.
ed

Great story, Gordon! You and I must have gone to the same high school (but then, didn't we all?)

I college friend of mine also had an Austin Healey with a V8 in it. Auto tranny, flares in the back and big, wide tires. Man, that beast was fast! Cornering....forget it.
Ron

I built a XJ6 jaguar with a small block Corvette 350/350 combination. Since the aluminum headed v-8 was light than even the stock jag six, it went fairly quickly, and cornered well also.
Even with a custom 4 row radiator, louvers in the hood, and water wetter in the raiator, the sucker still over heated fairly frequently, and fried starter motors regularly, with no practical way to sheild it. because of the header heat right on the starter.

Gclarke "The Vacaville Guy"

Gary,
I had a similar combination with a XJ12L and 350 (suncoast conversion kit). No heat problems. Perhaps it was because the engine compartment was vented better for the v12. The 12L looked almost identical to the 6, but had large vented headlight brackets that brought air in through a duct. Was a fun car. It was a teen age project and taught me a lot about cars before I could even drive.
-=theron

Some folks wrap their exhausts with fiberglass heat shield tape; I did this on my Ducati moto., and it worked well as far as keeping heat away from exposed ankles and legs. The performance claim is that if the heat is retained in the pipe, the hotter air produces lower back pressure for the piston to pump against.
-Tim

PS: Does anyone have experience with motorcycle engines in Speedsters? Seems like a logical combination; light weight, high performance, compact package...Today's 600-1000cc motors in street racers all put out >120hp. in a variety of torque curves...The adaptation and transmission issues are the ones that give my pea-brain a struggle though. Most in-line 4cyl. bikes have transmissions already, and the crank is 90

re: motorcycle in speedster. I tend to think torque would be the issue. You need to get an 1800 pound vehicle moving and then accelerate it. Not many bikes weigh 1800 pounds, though some of those Goldwings must be nearly that. I would think you'd want a super light weight vehicle for a M/C conversion. Some conversions even had an electric reverse using a starter motor if I recall. So I suppose it's doable, but to what advantage?
As a point of comparison, I put my flared type four onto the scales at a local moving company last weekend. 1860 pounds with a near full tank of gas.

Weight on my JPS with about 1/4 tank of gas is 1660 lbs. No Audio system, no air, and a 1776 gives me that number. About what I had figured I guess. This was weighed on a State Of Oregon Truck scale which even may be optomistic for more fine revenue.

Bruce

The British Berkely had a motorcycle engine, but it was really light, probably not more than 1200# or so. It was a tiny two seater. Also, some of the Morgan three wheelers were motorcycle powered, big JAP V twins if I recall correctly. With some motorcycle engines producing nearly 200 horsepower, perhaps it would be possible. I believe the Honda Gold wings have an option of using the starter motor for an electric reverse. I had a friend that had one and it was pretty neat the way it worked. I would presume that since there are "trike" conversions for motorcycles that the transaxle for the job may be available, but some work would be required for the wider track. Maybe somebody should give it a shot. How about you?
John H.

What goes around, comes around. A few months ago I was in a local VW shop and they were installing a VW engine in a Harley Trike. The shop owner called it the "Widow Maker" as it would have a tendency to rear up and deposit the driver on the road when the throttle was quickly advanced. Now talk of putting motorcycle engines in a Speedster. Why?
Maybe I'm missing something or is it just an engineering challenge?

I suppose that the question is based on HP and lower weight. If you can get 125HP from a 300lb motorcycle, then installing one would lower the weight of the car some also, especially if the TA was removed along with it. Horsepower is still horsepower, and although you have to rev the motor a bit higher to get it (like ~16,000 rpm's on a Yamaha R6), the ourcome might be exciting! I've never seen real-estate go by faster than while throttling up a CBR 900RR, and that was 5 years ago!
Tim
PS - Bruce; we're heading your was for vacation this summer. I lived in Beaverton for 4 year's around the time St. Helens blew. We're returning for the first time, but on a whirlwind tour. Order us up some nice weather...

Tim,

Weather this time of year is basically perfect, as you probably remember living in Beaverton. We are about 275 miles south near Medford. If you visit Crater Lake or going down I-5 into California, give us a call and stop by for a cool one to get rid of the trail dust! Where do you live now? Low 90's here today and in the forseeable future, clear skies and humidity about 15%.

Have a great trip and don't think Mt St. Helens will blow again on your truip but don't quote me on that,LOL.

Bruce, E mail me off site for our phone and location, Oregon is a big state!

When in High School I had a friend who built a tube frame with a 350 Chevy V8 and then mounted a 66 VW body over it. He drove from the back seat. He would get the front wheels off the ground going down the block. He got enough tickets in the thing to land him in jail. When he got out and got his licence back a year or so latter he ended up launching it broadside into a van totaling both cars, and earning himself a hospital stay.

yeah but he had something to smile about for the rest of his life.
luckily.

I saw one of those too...basically a guy took a Corvette body off and plopped a VW over it. What a racket! I didn't and don't see the need for the excessive speed though; my first thought on Tony's recounting was how about the people in the van? I've got a wife and kids travelling the same streets. The thought of a wreck scene with a baby-seat involved is too high a price
-Tim

Tim, when i mentioned above I "assumed" (hoped) he was the only one
hurt. My cars are full off car seats too. I hope common sense
will prevail. But what one person does to himself==fair game.