An Epitaph for Peter

Greetings all
The dust has settled regarding my 10 month experience with buying, building, owning, driving, and then selling my new 1957 356 Porsche Coupe Replica and I decided to share some of the various aspects of the circumstances surrounding this regrettable venture in hopes that those of you now considering purchasing one of these new cars might have a better understanding of the various aspects involved to be better prepared than I was.
The old saying

Nicely stated, Peter. I'm sorry that things didn't work out as well as you'd hoped. Your advice given toward the end of your post echoes what almost everyone here says. There are many on this forum who have bought new from the beginning, and been quite happy, but it requires a mix of good choices, good fortune, and expectations that are realistic and informed. If you are lacking any one of these three, you may be sorely disappointed.

hey Peter I saw your car at the Ventura car show and I believe it is now on EBAY.
Good luck too you

JPS Coupe outperforms the S&P 500! Peter, I really am sorry for your disappointing experience. I am glad you have expressed you true feelings about replica ownership. Other prospective owners can learn a lot from this group and real experiences like yours. You are lucky to be able to move on in this bad time. Good luck, we are all going to need some in the coming months.

Is this is: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Porsche-356-1957-Porsche-356A-Coupe-Replica-VW-Engine-Speedster_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1205Q7c39Q3a1Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c240Q3a1318QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem160289256363QQitemZ160289256363

Will, not quite true. If you annualize Peter's loss, it's something like 40%. Worse than the S&P.
Sorry Peter. I thought the car LOOKED great. While my purchase of a new car was very satisfying, I sometimes think for the limited use the car gets I could have saved a bundle by buying used from someone who found the reality to be something less than the fantasy. That having been said, I do not regret my purchase.

The world is not clamoring for a leaky coupe. In the event that it ever does, there'll be a shop with experience building them.

I'm sorry for you, Peter. Forewarned is forearmed, and hindsight is always 20/20. Hopefully the next guy will enter into the process a bit more clear eyed and level headed.

.... but probably not. Guys are shopping for a dream, and there's always some emperor's tailor willing to spin out a dream car....

Peter..... Salute!
You went for it and you learned a lot and shared it very well with us along the way.

My advice is>>> Go by yourself a crappy old speedster, take your time and fix it up just the way you want!

Signed contract with significant deposit for a repro-Coupe built somewhere on the West Coast, many broken promises and smoke-screen excuses from the builder, a finished product evident of poor quality control, sold to hesitantly optimistic buyers that live a considerable distance from the builder......grrrrrrr!!!

Peter - I believe there are quite a few on this site that empathize with your costly (time/money) and disappointing experience with a builder who has demonstrated many-times-over to be dishonorable.

Here's wishing that the time and circumstances for you to get another Speedy are in the not-too-distant future!!

Peace - Out!

I was basing my position "JPS Coupe out performs S&P 500" on Peter stating he had taken a 10% loss. I used the assumption that this was over the time period Jan. 1 2008- Oct 9 2009. That is his stated ownership time. The S&P dropped from 1468 to about 900 during this time period. How is a loss of 10% as stated by Peter not better than a loss of over 33% for the S&P over the same time period? I am relying on Peter's data as to loss figure of 10% and his time of ownership. The S&P figures are from numerous financial data sources. Plus Peter got a dividend in the form of a Best Import Trophy in a car show. I can't quantify that. I am really just trying to make him feel better about his experience.

Buying a Speedster replica can be a frustrating experience if you go into it with your eyes "almost closed" or with Stars-in-your-Eyes. I have bought a number of cars (some quite expensive) over the internet without seeing them in person or sending a representative to inspect. They are never as good as I hoped, BUT I hope for perfection and my idea of perfect is likely different from the seller's idea. I have never been so disappointed as to wish I had not purchased it. That being said I pass this advice on to anyone looking for a new or used replica (of any marque): 1) have a realistic expectation of what you will get for your money; 2)there are no bargains to replace quality; 3) understand the vehicle type and its idiosyncracies; 4)research, research, research; 5) speak personally with the seller and ask pre-researched questions; 6) make your judgement by relying on the good brains that earned you the extra funds for such a toy purchase.

MOST sellers are honest. I bought my Speedster a couple of years ago from John Legate, the first owner, and he was honest and forthright about its condition. It was a delightful transaction between two people who had honest discussions and expectations. It changed my opinion of replicas and brought me to a terrific bunch of people (this forum). That, alone, made it worth the price. Please don't let one bad experience color your opinion of these cars or allow it to color other's opinions.

Remember, it's not Life or Death ... its more fun than that!

Happy Trails,
Dusty and the Lovely Miss Sharon

Spoken like a gentleman Peter. Hope you don't disappear from this site - you seem like the type of person whose company would be a blessing.

Stick around. It's not just about cars.
angela

Ya, it's also about sex and alcohol.....Oh and lets not forget fishing....I love fishing with my pal Sam...

So then the question is do you still have to be on top of the people at Vintage and Special Edition? The reason I ask is because for example at Special Edition they have cars that are practically built sitting around for the engine option you choose. Vintage also produces cars very quickly so they must have a certain assmbly line technique down. Yet both these companies have gotten good marks for customer attention and build quality. Nothing is perfect of course. I'm not going to talk about IM because they are in a different price range altogether. So if you live 1300 to 2000 miles away is it always necessary to camp out near the factory and show your head every other day? Doesn't this get down to the person you're dealing with from the beginning?

Vince,
Sam is quite a fisher-person to have gotten such big ones!

...especially if she trolls with THOSE lures!!!!

Designed, no doubt, for the elusive wide-mouth eel-slurper! 8->

Paul,
I would want to be around or visit the build in various stages.
I dont think it is any different from having a new home built, you want to see the various stages and correct as you see fit. JPS told me 12 weeks and it was 12 weeks. I have the luxury of living 15 minutes away and was able to visit a few times a week. For someone who has a build cycle that is longer then this is good. JPS did my interior carpet in all black as I asked but when I went to the shop I did not like it and had John pull it and put in gray.

Vintage has such a rapid turnaround time you dont have the luxury unless you live in California to visit during the stages of the build. Expectations and Perceptions are killers.

Dont know about the others but hands down no one complains about Vintage. I have met Kirk and his wife and they are very good people.

I am assuming Peter is like a lot of other people who you see selling replica speedsters with very low mileage. Expectations are not what they perceived. Here is Peters input from September

JPS Motorsports latest creations that was successfully completed to my exact specifications in July 2008


posted 9/2/2008 11:38:08 PM
________________________________________
After much analysis, deliberation, and personal heartache, we have come to the very difficult decision that our new JPS Coupe must be sold in a bold move to improve our current ailing, fixed income supported, family financial situation in an attempt to get us back on a more stable financial footing.

At an asking price of only $29,500, the new owner will get the pleasure of immediately driving a brand new coupe (1,200 miles) without waiting up to 6 anxious months or experiencing any of the emotional gymnastics some of us have endured while having a Porsche 356 Replica built from the beginning.

As many of you know, this Coupe, which is under warranty, is one of JPS Motorsports latest creations that was successfully completed to my exact specifications in July 2008. In addition, it incorporates many new important modifications and improvements JPS has learned from building previous Coupes.

Please do not hesitate to call or E-mail me for any additional information you might need in considering this offer.

Best regards
Peter
503-936-0017
PeterL218 AT comcast.net


356 Porsche curb side.jpg

356 Porsche left rear.jpg

356 Porsche right rear.jpg

Thoughtful response, Gerd.

Paul asks a very good question:

"So if you live 1300 to 2000 miles away is it always necessary to camp out near the factory and show your head every other day? Doesn't this get down to the person you're dealing with from the beginning?"

Absolutely. There are those builders who work with you up front so that everyone understands expectations, they document those expectations in a contract, they then build your car and send photos along the way, you show up near the end for an acceptance visit, then they fix any problems you've found and ship the car to you (or you pick it up). Problems found after delivery are dealt with in a mutually agreed manner.

Then there are other builders who, it seems, need to be visited every week as Gerd did in order that they don't go astray or actually work on your car when they say they did. Of course, it's always better to catch something you want changed as early in the build process as possible, and visiting often more easily allows that to happen.

From everything we've read on here or experienced first hand, receiving a custom-built car from ANY of the manufacturers often (but not always) involves bugs that have to be fixed.

The differences are mainly in the magnitude of those problems in the first place (how the delivery problem differs from customer expectations), how expeditiously the builder arranges for the problems to be rectified to the customer's expectations and how the customer is treated by the builder during that process.

From what we've seen on here and other forums, IM and Special Edition both get highest marks on all those counts, with Vintage and SAS coming in a close second. Following far behind are JPS and Thunder Ranch, often for different reasons, and then the gaggle of 4, 5 and 6 tier companies. This often has to do with the 3'rd through 6'th tier builders being much smaller (often one or two person) operations which don't seem to go that extra step to insure customer satisfaction on delivery. Getting the car built and out the door seems to be enough in their book.

The truly sad part is that all of this has been documented on this site, Speedstershop, the Samba and Shop Talk Forums and is there to discover if someone does the research. Even though forewarned is forearmed, we're still seeing people ignoring the available information, forging ahead in spite of what others tell them and ordering cars from some of these questionable places. If we get overly vocal about problems seen with one builder or another, we piss off other people who may have bought from them and seen few, if any problems. Why they have no problems and others have many is still a mystery.

On the other hand, if we hear about or see problems in cars coming from a builder and don't mention them, then we serve to inform no one and perpetuate a problem onto other unsuspecting people.

Paul, you've had a terrible experience that I wouldn't wish on others, (quite similar to Tom DeWalt's) but your experience should serve to inform others of caveat emptor - let the buyer beware. What you're signing up for is probably NOT what you'll eventually receive.

GORDON, I KNEW I WOULD GET LAMBASTED BY SOMEBODY FOR MY RESPONSE. I WOULDNT CARE WHO WAS BUILDING MY CAR I WOULD BE THERE QUITE OFTEN.

AS FAR AS PETERS COMPLAINTS IT WAS ALL ABOUT THE LENGTH OF TIME TO COMPLETE THE BUILD. I SEE NOTHING REGARDING THE QUALITY OF THE CAR.

WAS JOHN WRONG TO TELL 12 WEEKS WHEN IT TOOK 25 WEEKS. ABSOLUTELY

HOWEVER HE IS NOT THE ONLY BUILDER TO DO THAT FROM POSTS I READ HERE.

MY POST WAS NOT TO GET INTO A PISSING MATCH HERE, BUT TO ANSWER PAULS QUESTION IN MY OWN OPINION. IT WAS MY OPINION DONT CARE IF WE AGREE IF EVERYONE DID THERE WOULD BE NO NEED FOR ATTORNEYS.

BUT UNTIL PETER TELLS US THERE WERE QUALITY ISSUES THEN THE JPS VULTURES SHOULD GO AND SUCK SOME BLOOD SOMEWHERE ELSE. READ HIS POSTS FROM DAY ONE. OTHER THAN MINOR ISSUES THAT ALL OWNERS POST REGARDING NEW BUILDS, HE HAS HAD NO QUALITY ISSUES.

GORDON FEEL FREE TO ADD YOUR OPINION BUT UNLESS YOUR JESUS CHRIST DONT CRUCIFY ME FOR MY OPINION

HAVE A GOOD WEEKEND

Hey Guys

IMHO - Peter's posts are a carbon copy of all the crap I read with the Green Coupe's posts and the many back and forth thoughts. One day he was satisfied, next day not. I am not saying that all of the whining was not justified, however, these people get into these cars, are not pleased with reality, and then want out for whatever reason. They bring up 50 thousand reasons why they are disappointed. I suspect that when their car is done they expect it to be like a 2008 built car. The fact is, they are ordering a car that has 40 to 50 year old technology, and guys, that is exactly what the are. The tech is old. Gordon, you are right, these folks have a dream, and jump into this stuff without really checking out all the info. Most have no idea of how a 50 year old car goes around corners. I don't expect my 2004 Beck to handle like a 2008 Mini or Porsche. It's just not the same. These folks need to do their homework, and if not, don't go after someone when they have not. I am going for a ride with others tomorrow to Big Sur, about 100 miles to lunch and back. The drive will be, let's just say "brisk". Believe me, if there are some late model cars in this group, I will not try to keep up. It just doesn't work that way. And, if we go through a puddle of water, I expect to get wet. Don't care, I am in it for the ride. The 50 year old look and the ride is all I expect of my replica. Cheers!

Warren,
It can't be said better than that!

Mr. Kerswill, might you often side with JPS Motorsports because you are in fact John

PETER THAT IS NEWS TO ME.
ILL HAVE TO ASK JOHN TO PAY ME FOR MY CORPORATE ACCOUNTING WORK. ONLY PROBLEM IS I DONT DO SUCH WORK FOR JPS. NEXT MISINFORMATION QUESTION

I agree with Dusty, Warren - good Post which sums it up nicely.

Now as for Gerd: My first line in my last post was directed to you, Gerd, because I thought that your prior post made a lot of very good points and was well thought out. I WAS AGREEING WITH YOU, NOT "LAMBASTING" YOU! (You see? I can use CAPS, too...)

How many times have you read posts from me (and many others, including you) on here telling people that they must check up on their builder (ANY builder) as many times as they can afford while their car is getting built, just as you said. Wow....we agree again.

As far as Peter's problem of build time versus quality, perhaps I was confused between Peter and Paul (sounds a little Biblical, there). I get that way sometimes....I'm almost as old as YOU.

Just like you (again), I mentioned that ALL of the builders have issues from time to time. No builder is perfect, but that some offer consistently better product and service than others. I also wrote that the same builder (JPS, if you want an example) can produce one car with many problems (like ALL of his coupes, it seems) and other cars (like yours, I would assume) with few or no problems at all. Makes you want to ask; "Why is that?"

Lastly, I have gone out of my way on this forum to be courteous to everyone. I learned in my career long ago that "lambasting" people or getting into email wars never serves a useful purpose. If you were offended, then perhaps you should re-read my prior post and realize that I was amplifying on YOUR opinions and agreeing with all of them.

Honestly, I thoroughly understand your position: You bought a car from JPS and then later on DeWalt bought his coupe and detailed his horror show (some of which, IMO, was caused by Tom) and that was causing people to think, "Wow! Is JPS THAT bad?" Maybe his cars aren't all that good and I should look elsewhere".

In parallel, existing JPS owners (like you) now have to justify the quality of their cars if/when they wish to sell them (just like you did) and they're afraid of a drastic loss in value (i.e., for you accountants, "I'm losing money on this because of someone else's problems which I DON'T HAVE!") I have even written on here about how existing JPS cars (just like those from other builders) get whatever bugs sorted out quickly and then are great cars from then on. Issues are not a new thing with JPS; Curt Scott was talking about John Steele ten+ years ago (Steele used a different company name 10+ years ago).

Anyway, next time you have a problem with me, feel free to send me an email and we'll discuss it that way and come to an agreement. I think you'll find that I'm not the "JPS Vulture" that you make me out to be. I try to write in a balanced, unemotional way about the builders. Some of them are just simply better than others and some need more "oversight" than others. I try to avoid RFI (rumor, folklore and innuendo) when writing about builders, as there are way too many opinions out there with a lack of facts to back them up so I always try (on my own dime) to research the truth.

And knock off all caps all the time. It's un-necessary and makes you look less with-it than I know you probably are...

gn

In the words we've seen on here before:

"Peace! Out!"

HEY GORDON GOOD POST. SORRY I MISUNDERSTOOD YOU AND I APOLOGIZE. IM STILL WORKING ON THE CAP LOCK ISSUE.

I don't think all JPS Coupe are poorly built. I am very happy with mine although I went through some trying times (engine fire) and sorting out issues, but throughout the trying times, John is helping to sort things out. I know of at least 1 more Coupe owner that is happy with his. Why does some owner happier than others? I believe it has been discussed over and over again here. I believe it boils down to expectation v.s reality.

Anyway, I just want to put my 2 cents.

Like the wise Musbjim always says, peace out.....

I own JPS coupe #4. It is coming up on a year old but I only have 1200 miles on it, as I also have a VS speedster that demands equal time. Thus far the little coupe has been a pleasure to own. Two minor issues concerning a balky door handle and loose power window wire were addressed by JPS at the 1000 mile physical. Don't know if it leaks water and don't care. My expectations of the coupe were no more than my expectations of the speedster, and I had read a multitude of rainy day horror stories about speedies before ordering one from Vintage. If someday I get caught in the rain with either car and the interior gets wet, I'll deal with it. I didn't hear anybody that went to Paso 2 years ago and got soaked, blast their vehicle manufacturer so why have these JPS coupes become such whipping boys? These things are toys and before you buy you need to realize that. My best advice for prospective buyers is to talk to lots of owners, not just makers, before you buy so that your expectations are realistic and probably much more accurate.

What have been the general comments regarding Automotive Legends? Are they related to fibersteel? Has anyone had any experience with having a car built through them? I'm not as concerned about the time to build. I'm more concerned about the things that go wrong with them that make them unable to be driven.Futher I've read that some the makers do a shakedown test prior to delivery to a customer. IM,I read puts a couple of hundred miles on a car. But I gather not of of them do that. Can you stipulate that in a contract with them?

You know, I tried to give up on this website a couple of years ago, because it seemed like "Groundhog Day"- a closed loop of the same discussions and opinions recycled over and over and over. Only the players change from year to year. It's disheartening.

Realistic expectations DO have a lot to do with the enjoyment of these cars. The raw-boned nature of 70 y/o technology really ADDS to the appeal of these cars to me. If I wanted a totally tight roadster than ran like a sewing machine with about as much "soul", I'd buy a Miata. I want something edgier than that, with a drivetrain devoid of (most) electronics (I don't want to deal with points, so- there you go) that I can improve upon in my spare time. I love driving the car, but I love working on it almost as much. I'd say most long-term owners are the same as I am.

However, what Peter is talking about doesn't have anything to do with unrealistic expectations. Eddy and Tom are both satisfied with their JPS coupes, and Gerd is satisfied with his speedster. They are share an important distinction- they all live in So-Cal, where they could all check on and change their cars during the build process. A guy in Portland, or Philadelphia, or Chicago doesn't have that option.

The concept of "bad weather usability" also means something different to most people than it does to guys from this area as well. "Seems it never rains in southern California", as we all heard in the '60s. It rains, sleets, snows, and is otherwise nasty in most other places in this country. It's a reasonable expectation that a coupe would be 99% weathertight, and extend the season by a couple of months a year. It would be counterintuitive to buy one expecting it to leak like just like a car with an "emergency top".

I'm not sure why a guy would want a coupe over a speedster if weather protection was not a factor in the decision, but Tom seems to suggest that it should fall under the "reasonable expectation" heading. The world is not clamoring for a leaky coupe- it has as much functionality as one of the cardboard submarines you used to be able to order from the back of Mechanix Illustrated. If you want to make a fashion statement- great, but for most of the people who buy them, a leaky coupe gives up nearly all of the neat things about a speedster, and gives nothing in return. Full disclosure of this would be in everybody's best interest.

Forewarned is forearmed. "Ready, aim, fire" beats "ready, fire, aim" every single time.

As Stan points out, weather and proximaty should play a huge role in buyer decision making. Being close to the maker is advantageous during the build and most certainly after the vehicle is completed. I have the luxury of living within 25 miles of Vintage and 50 miles of JPS, as well as living where I can drive my replicas almost any day of the year without weather being an issue. If this wasn't the case I probably would have opted for a different set of toys.

When I did my research on the leaking issue I found that a large part of the problem originated from under the car in the wheel well areas and through the door gaps. How would a coupe body automatically fix those issues? And why then, Stan, would it be a "reasonable expectation" that a coupe replica would be 99% weatherproof if a prospective buyer did their homework?

And Stan, why a guy would choose a coupe over an open vehicle is probably a personal taste thing and nothing to do with the weather. Ask the guy with a 63 Split Window, or the guy with the 275 GTB, etc. And if it's a "fashion statement"? Duh, ya think. I got these things because they look cool out on the road, and while I admire and am admittedly jealous of those of you that can take these cars apart and put them back together in your sleep, I would still much rather be in it than under it.

I don't understand something. WHATEVER I choose, open-air or couple, am I not paying for a "pefect" vehicle? Is there something in the advertising I'm missing? Do these manufacturers advertise "WARNING: This vehicle may leak, spew, cough, etc. and we're not responsible"??

Call me old. When I pay for an alleged quality product, I still expect quality. If not, I expect it to be made right. That's if I live in So Cal or Michigan or New Jersey. What, cars made in Michigan by GM or Ford can't be made well unless I live there to oversee the process?

Again, call me confused.

As I stated on a previous thread, I think we are giving builders a pass on quality. I too think it's ludicrous for buyers to expect a 2008 BMW-like performance from a 1970s VW engine, frame, and suspension. I do think, for the money these builders are charging, a buyer should expect correct wiring, a smooth running engine, and yes, no water coming from the pan. Of course, I'm not a builder and maybe there's some rational behind some of these "bad builds."

Nope.....they're just bad builds.

Keep in mind that there is a wide range of prices from one builder to the next. I don't know for sure, but IM's probably don't leak, but then, you are paying twice the price of a Vintage.

Did water come up through the pans on the originals? If so, then the replica's are just that...You are buying a replica of a 50 year old car, and one that was made for the California climate....

VINCE
THAT WAS A LUCID AND RATIONAL STATEMENT VOID OF PICS
IM PROUD OF YOU :)

Thank you Gerd....

I think Vince musta been standing by a microwave that momentarily aligned that metal plate in his head!

BTW - I think the proper caption for Vince's picture is "...now say Death to America!"

WRT replica cars, JPS builds very nice cars with a mix of satisfied/disatisfied owners (as with ANY product, caveat emptor applies). IMHO the issue is not weather/build-location/coupe-vs-speedy, but that a person is ONLY as good as his word. If a builder extends good-will then that's cool (lending a vehicle, replacing faulty parts, etc), however if they back-pedal after making a personal promise (written agreement or spoken in your presence) then the addage applies "Fool me once..."

...I'm just saying...

OH JIM
STOP MAKING SENSE :)