And now for the sequel...

Look at it this way, a replica is something that you can actually drive without having to bring along armed guards to stand next to it when you go into a Starbucks.  Most of Stan's admonishments would still apply to a real 356, but with the added worries of rust and loss of investment.

I have yet to drive an original 356, but am working on a friend that just got an original '65 SC Coupe, so hopefully I can offer a comparison soon.

I know what you mean - one of the reasons I bought I Boxster was because I'm not going to live in fear of door dings, etc., the way I would if I bought, say, a Ferrari. I did seriously consider a 360, but the Boxster was in such good shape with such low miles, I had to choose it. It belonged to an elderly lawyer in Arizona, who had ONLY driven Porsches since the 60s - he'd buy one, drive it fora  decade, then give it to one of his children and buy another one from the dealer. Sadly, his health deteriorated to the point that he could no longer shift a manual gearbox, which was the occasion for the sale.

But this is EXACTLY the person you want to buy a car from - someone who really understands the marque, and you know, I've generally found that older people take the best care of their things. So I just had to buy it.

Ideally, that's the kind of person I'd buy a 356 replica from - someone who's really into it and cares about their car, who wants to see it go to a good home.

Well I have owned an original when I was a kid so my judgement is a little clouded in remembering exactly all the details but I still remember the drive quite well.  

My old IM 2004 A-cooled, was very similar to the original except for the tranny and Hp, but my new IM with full 911 front end is another car completely. 

I would have to agree that compared to an original you should have a better car if you own a beck or IM but it is still a handbuilt car so a lot of sorting, and more maintenance and things to remember to do because of the use of older style technology even if the new subie stuff can make it a turn the key and drive off. 

My wife thinks I am nuts most times but I love the car.  

Oh, what's the 911 front end like on these cars? That sounds like an interesting mod. It must feel different indeed with the 911 front end vs a stock unit.

Were the VW front ends and original 356 front end very different?

Intermeccanica offers a full 911 suspension in their Speedsters and Convertible Ds (Roadsters).  The Beck Coupe will be the first of their cars to utilize a new chassis with double A-arm coilovers in the front (with R&P steering) and trailing arm coilovers in the back, and will support both mid-engine and rear-engine configurations.  I believe that chassis will eventually be available in the Speedster as well.  If you're willing to spend the coinage you can get just about anything.

 1972 VW regular beetle is essentially a 1959 356 with beam front end .   Worm and roller steering 15 inch wheels. 

Outside of the tranny ratios in the 356 they had 1600cc and basically 60hp. 

911 front end is an A Arm suspension from around 1989 add sway bars, rack and pinion and it is a pretty flat and road holding car but this is a tube frame and not a pan based car.  

Add a Subie or even a 6cyl Subie (not yet done anywhere) but many IM's come with 6 cyl P engines and 5 speed tranny.  This is not the same car at all and you could buy a new P for the price. 

Homework is needed to define what one wants..

Start with a good used one with options as close to what you want in my opinion. 

 

Ray

As far as the power plant and gearbox go, I'm a-ok with a Subie with any reasonable 5-speed. That aspect of the mechanics seems like a solved problem - I'm much more interested in how well put together and durable it is.

Have you ever heard of the "uncanny valley"? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley

I think an analogous concept applies with replicars - if it looks and feels almost ... but not QUITE ... right, the reaction can go from positive to negative. Notice this doesn't just apply to replicas. I had an Alfa Romeo Spyder, 100% original, that fell into the uncanny valley, because even though it LOOKED great and SOUNDED great and HANDLED great, there was something kind of cheap feeling about the controls. They just seemed very ordinary. And it was enough of a turnoff that I remember it 20 years after selling the car.

Lane makes a good point but more so that he lives nearish to Beck and if you live near a builder your best bet is to buy from the nearest builder and it sure helps that Beck is a great builder as well.

 

Well I gotta get some work done for HoneyDoo... you know who that is....

I have heard good things about Beck, yes - the Superformance of Speedsters...

IaM-Ray posted:

if you live near a builder your best bet is to buy from the nearest builder 

 

 

 Great advice here - only more so, when Beck is in your backyard.

A Vintage Speedster (any year) with a 1600 - 1776cc engine and swing-arm transaxle is very close in performance/handling to a Porsche 356 A with a 1600 “Normal” engine.  The Vintage with front disk brakes would probably stop faster and more reliably, that’s about it.  Everything else about the horsepower, suspension, wheel tuck-under, etc, is They even both have the same annoying “porpoising” undulation on freeways, from time to time.  Other than that, the biggest difference is the original was steel and the replica is fiberglass.

The most horsepower you could get in a 356 from a dealer was 87hp from the Carerra with the “Super 90” engine.  Those engines were good for about 120hp with the proper tweaking as we do on our engines.  

The aircooled VW engines we use, with the right selection of parts, can get you 150 reliable HP, or up to about 180hp if you’re willing to take a bit more risk.   Comparable Subaru non-turbo engines are about the same range (150 - 200).  Anything beyond that quickly becomes a lot (or too much) for the swingarm suspension and skinny tires.  Anything from 140hp and up would benefit greatly from a fully independent rear suspension, found in VW’s from 1969 on and all newer Intermeccanicas.

Are you near them @slowshoes   ?

A swing axle'd, front VW beam Speedster with 165's for tires all the way around will feel very much like an original, especially with a smaller engine (1600- 1915, stock heads and dual Ict's or Kadrons) for 1/10th the price of an original Speedster. You won't be nervous about traffic mis-haps or parking lot dents; it can be fixed or replaced easily, as opposed to an original. Build it with discs on the front and it will stop better (the Porsche drums are good- they took them as far as the technology could go when the other European manufacturers were switching to discs, but they went to discs as well when they realized they couldn't take drums any further and discs were in fact superior), irs and it will handle better (expecially if you go to the trouble of fitting wider rims and tires in the back- 205's on 7" rims are possible) and I'm told (haven't had the opportunity to drive one so outfitted) a 911 front suspension transforms the car yet again.

A 2 liter (or bigger) and a 5 speed just make the S_hitE_atngG_rin that much bigger. 

These things are all about being driven, and not just from the garage to trailer to the show field and back...Al

Ooohh- we were thinking along the same lines, Gordon...

@dkennemo In 1971 I bought a '57 356 1600S Coupe for $1,100. Nice car, daily driver, made a few upgrades and sold it a couple years later for $1,500. Then paid $1,300 for a '61 356 Super90 Coupe as a daily driver. After that, its been 911's.

Long story short, today's replicas, with minimal upgrades, ride & handle better, don't rust and are relatively inexpensive to maintain (your mileage may vary).

My driving habits are those of a cruiser, take-in-the-scenery kind of guy (fast cars, been there, done that). I don't intend to enter the Gumball Rallye, Pike's Peak Hill Climb or Paris-To-Dakar race. I owned my previous VS for 15 years as my daily driver in SoCal. I logged 161,000Km (100,000 miles) relatively trouble-free driving all over CA, NV, OR, WA, UT, CO.

Click on pics to enlarge...

I've owned my current daily driver VS for nearly 3 years and have logged 45,000Km (28,000 miles).

FWIW, here is my advice, considering your location (and weather), keep your Boxster as your daily driver, buy the replica Speedster as your fun car to drive on days weather permitting. This will keep your driving experience with the replica as an enjoyment rather than a hope-I-survive-today's commute.

All thing considered (expectations, weather conditions for your location, budget and proximity to Special Editions) I would go with a new (or pre-owned) Special Editions (Beck). You would be well served by visiting and talking with Carey Hines. No need to over think this process, or suffer from analysis paralysis.

Hope you find this info helpful, best of luck in your endeavor and "Welcome To the Madness" known as replica Speedster ownership! 

 

D, I think what you're asking is how well are these replicas screwed together. How well will they hold up in the long haul, especially if you drive them as hard as you would a daily driver?

To answer those questions, comparing them to the original Porsches sort of clouds the issue. The most expensive replicas (Intermeccanica) are probably built as well as a new Porsche was in 1958. Becks, for substantially less, are probably built nearly as well, if not finished as luxuriously. The lower priced replicas - Vintage Speedster and JPS, for example - not so much. These last are still good value for the money, but they cost quite a bit less than the others, and here you really do get what you pay for.

But there haven't been any new factory Speedsters built in 60 years, so comparing replicas to them is almost a moot point. Any real Speedster you're likely to find has been restored or practically rebuilt from new parts by hand in a small shop - just as new replicas are. The 'build' quality is only as good as the restorer or home mechanic who did the work.

So, how will a replica hold up in daily use? Pretty well, actually, if you understand that you're driving a very old-school car. They require more frequent maintenance, and you do have to 'listen' to the car as you drive a lot more than in a modern car. You will definitely be fussing with this car a lot more than you may be used to. For some, that gets old fast, and explains why so many of these cars are for sale with low mileage

But, the other side is that they're much simpler machines than modern cars, so most things that need attention are straightforward to address. If you're handy, you can do a lot of the routine work yourself. The car will never mysteriously drop into 'limp home' mode on you. You won't ever need to make an appointment with a dealer to have the computer re-programmed.

I have one of the least expensive replicas, a Vintage Speedster, and, quite frankly, it was a mess when delivered (not all of them are, though). But even so, a competent local VW mechanic was able to rebuild it into a car that I can now confidently drive on any road, in any traffic, and take out of town on extended trips with no fear.

As you move up the food chain with these cars, brand new ones are less likely to have initial teething issues, but any of them can be whipped into shape and made reliable.

You just need to understand what these cars are all about before you dive in. They're not  remotely like Toyotas, but that's got a lot to do with why most of us love them so much.

 

IaM-Ray posted:

Are you near them @slowshoes   ?

 Not really - I'm just south of Detroit. My oldest daughter lives in Illinois though, and Beck would have been easy to stop to make along the way to her place.

 Believe me, when I was purchasing my Speedster, I ran through multiple configurations for a Beck, trying as I could to make it more affordable for me. Trust me when I say this, but we aren't rich, and my wife and I are newly retired. Even buying my VS required dipping into retirement funds, so it was a big decision for us.

 In the end, this was more my dream than hers, and she was on board for the price point for the VS, but not so much for the Beck, so VS it was.

 She could have really given me some grief after we got our car and had the problems we did right off the bat Thankfully, she's shown me nothing but positive support, probably due, in part, to seeing all the stress it was causing me. (we both just got home this past July after living in Illinois for about 1 1/2 years helping our young grandson get through his battle with neuroblastoma). We were both looking forward to taking delivery of our Speedster and having some great top down drives to decompress.

 We have had some of those drives, but we are hoping to get some more issues worked out and have many more this next driving season.

 Bill

 

What city are you in slowshoes? I’m in Dearborn.
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I agree with you conceptually, Sacto - the basis of comparison can't be versus a real Porsche Speedster from the late '50s because the scale of what constitutes "quality" in a car has changed since then, and were the kinds of resources applied to their initial build that are applied today to restore the aging build now, they would have been The Most Robust Long-Lasting Car Ever To Have Been Built By Humanity.

 

On the bright side, my car won’t ever rust, the parts are easy to come by, and I have a great builder in Bremen who takes great care of me. As far as longevity, I’ve had it going on 8 years with around 30K miles and see no end in sight.

However, it will not ever be a daily driver. My Natalie is currently in storage in Bremen awaiting spring upgrades to be picked up the first week in April. If you visit Bremen before then you can say hi for me :-)
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Well Slowshoe I fully understand, and whatever car you ended up with your budget, if you cannot get a good mechanic where you live.  Carey and his boys at Beck could help your if you need some work as they know those cars and the engines for stuff others cannot figure out and as El Guapo has so easily proven VS's can go for miles and miles as well.  To each his own madness.  

It would be interesting to see a side-by-side comparison of each of the different makes and the real thing to see what the marginal cost / marginal difference is. Let's say you had two different manufacturers and you were able to say, ok, the difference between A and B is that A has more authentic bezels, more authentic windshield wipers, and the font is more like the original on A than B. And the price difference is - I dunno - $10,000. Are bezels, wipers and a font worth an incremental $10,000?

I think to do that analysis you'd have to be crazy obsessive with these types of comparisons, though. I imagine someone here went through that though.

DKENNEMO,

This clarifies things enormously. I'll PM you with my phone number. Give me a call and we'll chat about what you can expect.

I think you might have what it takes.

Just go to Carlisle and pick your poison...

Tom Blankinship posted:

On the bright side, my car won’t ever rust, the parts are easy to come by, and I have a great builder in Bremen who takes great care of me. As far as longevity, I’ve had it going on 8 years with around 30K miles and see no end in sight.

However, it will not ever be a daily driver. My Natalie is currently in storage in Bremen awaiting spring upgrades to be picked up the first week in April. If you visit Bremen before then you can say hi for me :-)
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Tom do tell, what upgrades are planned  

Tom Blankinship posted:

What city are you in slowshoes? I’m in Dearborn.
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 Hi Tom - we live on Grosse Ile  It was nice to finally have a day above freezing for a change!

Bill

X2 what Bill said.  You’ll have plenty of opportunities for rides or even drives in a variety of cars.  That’s the best education you can get on this subject.

Don't rush into anything.  Half the fun is doing the research.  Can I live with a pan car or do I have to have space frame?  Do I really need IRS?  Is VW front torsion bar robust enough for my driving?  Am I a tinkering type who can work on air cooled?  Or am I mechanical neophyte who needs a reliable water cooled power plant?  Are 4 speeds enough or do I need to drop a bunch of bank on a 5 speed?  Whats my budget?  $20k?  $90K?  Then after that you can start thinking about the colors.  But don't rush it.  I bought a used IM but had photos of the car I wanted to build for years.  I just built that car.  Don't rush.  Read.  Learn.  And find or build the car that you really want.  How many cars did I own before I built my perfect car?  I don't want to think about it.  Take your time.  Talk to Stan.  Talk to lots of folks.  See and drive lots of cars.  Go to Carlisle.  Just take your time.

Good I should say great advice unless of course.... he already has the madness and has a good dose of purile impatience  

d,

Back to the longevity, which is what this post is about. I have 40,000 plus miles on a highly strung 2165cc type1(172hp on the dyno). I did pull the heads around 10,000 miles and all was good. So a high-po motor can last, if it's put together right.

Take your time, do your research, and welcome!

Danny

Not much this winter. An on-board battery tender, and, hopefully an upgrade to Hawk pads in the rear (if we can find a match and maybe some black Pegusi. The rest is maintenance.


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Tom Blankinship posted:

Not much this winter. An on-board battery tender, and, hopefully an upgrade to Hawk pads in the rear (if we can find a match and maybe some black Pegusi. The rest is maintenance.


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What...No turbo?

Lots of stories here that bring back a lot of personal grief and triumphs.  

Slowshoes......   I had to look up neuroblastoma, and it is a nasty thing, indeed.  I am so glad that the Grandson (and future Speedster right-seater) has improved to, at least, a stable condition and that you both feel confidant that you can get to that retirement that you both deserve.  I sincerely pray that he continues to improve!

I don't think any of these cars (especially Stan's and mine    ) ever stop evolving.  I don't quite know what will be the next big thing, I just know I'll be out there before the Spring Thaw working on something.  I keep thinking of a cruise control.........

I have been suggesting for years that the best place to buy a Speedster/Coupe is the builder closest to you and then haunt them all through the build.  For you, D, that would be Carey Hines at Beck.  You will never regret that choice and I believe that just about everyone on here would agree.

Gordon Nichols posted:

I don't think any of these cars (especially Stan's and mine    ) ever stop evolving.  I don't quite know what will be the next big thing, I just know I'll be out there before the Spring Thaw working on something.  I keep thinking of a cruise control.........

I keep building or remodeling houses to keep me out of the garage and out of money, but cruise is way up there on the list of things I'd like to do.

dkennemo posted:

It would be interesting to see a side-by-side comparison of each of the different makes and the real thing to see what the marginal cost / marginal difference is. Let's say you had two different manufacturers and you were able to say, ok, the difference between A and B is that A has more authentic bezels, more authentic windshield wipers, and the font is more like the original on A than B. And the price difference is - I dunno - $10,000. Are bezels, wipers and a font worth an incremental $10,000?

I think to do that analysis you'd have to be crazy obsessive with these types of comparisons, though. I imagine someone here went through that though.

If you're now into the Uncanny Valley discussion and away from the durability discussion, you'll find a pretty wide range of OCD types here. Personally I'm attempting right now to build a fake-ass Spyder that looks and feels as much like the original item as I can manage. It's going to be something pretty special—and it won't even be close.

On a Speedster, the switches, gauges, steering wheel, seats, shifter and pedals are all pretty straightforward. You can get them all right, or at least "period," for not a lot more money. But parking brake handle—that's a tricky thing. And if you're building on a VW pan, the center hump will always be "wrong." It doesn't look bad, it just isn't exactly like a 356. 

Then too, on any replica, the tub shape won't be "correct" in the back seat area. That's a thing that can be remedied with money and time, but few people bother. The number of observers who would notice this detail is vanishingly small, and any of them would also spot the car as a replica.

There are myriad other similar "tells" on a replica that a Porsche purist could not abide. Most do not hurt the car's functionality and a few actually improve it.

So, as they say here, "who cares?" It's never going to be a Porsche, so why knock yourself senseless trying to get all those don't-matter things right?

The bare fact is, when a nicely-detailed Beck, IM or VS replica is parked at a show, it gets lots of positive attention from "car guys" and pretty much everyone else. Unless it's been beat up or worked poorly by someone, the fit and finish looks legit, and whether a Type 1 VW or a Subaru out back, the cars sound impressive and move smartly. 

 

Just a small blip on the scarce IM6....it is NOT your everyday replica. Despite having 911 brakes, suspension, and 6 cylinder Porsche motor, its chassis is different than any 4 cylinder IM. Its chassis is reinforced with 5x3 side rails fabricated from 0.188 inch wall thickness steel(4 cylinder cars use 0.125 steel). The front subframe is twice as long as that in the 4 cylinder models and the rear subframe uses 3x2 steel(used ONLY on the 6 cylinder cars). The engine is also forward 3 inches to facilitate a better front/rear ratio and lessen the understeer often found in 911 cars along with a number of other chassis/suspension upgrades hidden under skin.

I happen to have had 2 PPIs done before buying mine and the first, done by a Lambo/Ferrari/McLaren specialist was plainly amazed at the meticulous integrity of the build and assured me that it was not any kit-car replica of any sort. The detail paid to every nuance of fit, finish, and design on the trunk, cockpit, and engine compartment was every bit as per Ferrari, in his opinion, and he quickly got me past any hesitancy I had about the buy....I was sold.

Just wanted to offer any newbie(?) or (?) , further explanation about another option available, in addition to the SUBIE, Coupe, and 4 cylinder Beck, JPS, Vintage models. A new IM6 is a bit pricey...in 100K plus range.

@Satco Mitch 

....The car will never mysteriously drop into 'limp home' mode on you.

Oh yes it can and will like when the points close, conderser goes bad, coil decides to go south, push rod comes loose from bad rocker arm, intake leak, carb issues and the list of "Speedster Limp Mode" just drags us along...and hopefully to home :~)

Stan Galat posted:

Gordon Nichols posted:

I don't think any of these cars (especially Stan's and mine    ) ever stop evolving.  I don't quite know what will be the next big thing, I just know I'll be out there before the Spring Thaw working on something.  I keep thinking of a cruise control.........

I keep building or remodeling houses to keep me out of the garage and out of money, but cruise is way up there on the list of things I'd like to do.

I am with you there, especially if we do our cross-country trip this year. My right foot gets pretty dead on long drives.

These new ones are electronic servos and need no vacuum. A bit pricey but a necessity for our trip. This one will do, it would just need a coupling nut on your existing speedo cable. Works for me since I have the GPS speedo....

https://www.summitracing.com/p...qEAQYBCABEgLTX_D_BwE

You guys with mechanical speedos can use an additional cable on a pass through speed sensor.

 Thinking of cruise control myself for long trips it would be nice not to mention keep my speed from climbing into RED LIGHT ZONE>>>> 

the manufacturer of these kits is Rostra even if it is sold by Dakota, I installed the universal kit over 25 years ago on a VW rabbit. It was some work but doable... essentially the servo pulls the throttle linkage and you have 2 magnets held on by a tie wrap until the epoxy holds to provide the speed signal or in this case a speedometer cable link.  You still need to install a few micro switches on the clutch and the brake so that it turns off when you depress those.  Lastly the actual switch worked well and is the same switch displayed on that link. 

Now for the subie guys if your using a stock ECU your ECU might have the whole Cruise module within it so you need something that will read the VSS vehicle speed sensor or digital speedometer and the foot pedal switches but the ECU could be made to do it all... including the switches you see on a steering wheel... you need a good subie tech This is not for the faint of heart.

Alan Merklin posted:

@Satco Mitch 

....The car will never mysteriously drop into 'limp home' mode on you.

Oh yes it can and will like when the points close, conderser goes bad, coil decides to go south, push rod comes loose from bad rocker arm, intake leak, carb issues...

 

Alan, none of those things are modern 'limp home' problems.

Those are all comfortably familiar, old-school 'hopelessly stuck by the side of the road' breakdowns - something the Speedster does really well.

I'd much rather call a tow truck for a failure that I understand than be forced to limp home at 15 mph by some baffling high-tech error code.

I can score huge points at Cars and Coffee by saying I missed last week because I blew out a rocker arm, but how macho is it to whine about an "Oxygen sensing adaptation, upper load range, bank 1- Above Limit".

No one's going to commiserate and buy me a beer for that.