DISASTER! &@#%£!!

What do they say at McDonalds??  "I'm Lovin' it!!"  And so I am.  Paul and Cory are going to make a great team, and both will understand all that needs to be understood wrt to the engine when it gets done.  What a hoot, wish I lived in Phoenix.  My $0.02: be VERY sure all parts are balanced.  I would even pay to have this done again now, even if you think it was done when built.  A properly blue-printed engine will be SO SMOOTH -- its the right thing to do.  If there is any doubt about any of the important bits -- get new ones.  Have everything checked for out-of-round.  If you don't have the right measuring tools, go to a good engine machine shop and have them check it out.

And keep the posts and pics coming -- we love this shyt!!

You know, everyone should have a second speedster, and now I do. All I have to do is move because Cory know where I live. It would be so cool to drive a different speedster ever other day.

We'll definitely examine everything and have a good machine shop confirm everything is balanced. Last time I did that I think it was about $160, and I too believe it's important if you're going to turn some serious rpm's. We've gotten pretty good at adjusting duel carbs. It's all gonna be fine and a great learning experience. I never trust myself to set "end play" so I always take the block down and have an expert do for me for a couple bucks. Getting it just right is really important. Getting the innards assembled correctly is something we understand and are confident doing.

It's always exciting to fire up a new engine the first time, but I really get antsy when breaking the cam in, but its gotta be done. We have the ability to start the engine on a stand or in the car so we'll discuss that.

Your daughter's wedding!

Whoops!  Had two posts sneak in under me.

Maybe it'll be back on the road for the big event - White always looks good at weddings.

Gordon Nichols posted:

Whoops!  Had two posts sneak in under me.

Maybe it'll be back on the road for the big event - White always looks good at weddings.

Paul will have to drag them to their honeymoon on his trailer, 'cause I'm not teaching that boy of hers to drive a stick in the Speedster...

I woke up this morning without any water. During the night my main water line at a elbow had broken. trip to Home Depot (26 miles each way) line repaired.  100 degrees outside so I thought I would come in where it's cool and read the whole thread.  Yes, this is an amazing group.  I have a 914 a boxster and a VS speedster and I love driving my speedster best.  Kirk built my car in early '89 and in the spring we picked it up.  My wife and I then drove the 550 miles to Oroville Ca. in a blinding rainstorm.  All we did was take a pair of socks and stuff one each in the upper left and right corner of the windshield (you know where I mean) and we were OK.  I have been blessed because in the 27 years I have owned and driven the car all I have done is put in an electric fuel pump and a master brake cylinder.  I have gone on tours, Monterey week and many car shows and cars and coffee's.  As all were mentally diagnosing the potential problem I was also trying to think what could cause such a sudden seizing.  About 1968 I was driving a '65 bus really hard coming back from a trip to Seaworld in San Diego, I spun the center main bearing and seized the engine.  Lack of oil seems to be something our engines cannot live without.  A lot of knowledge in this club and I have learned some today.  Good on you all mates. 

PaulEllis posted:

Yeah, he's got good heads and we're trying to contain cost. The shop is recommending a cam and lifters, and bearings of course. We'll make sure the case is good and clean. I imagine the oil pump needs to be replaced too.

I have a valve spring compressor so we'll check the valve guides at the very least.

It looks like he has CNC ported pretty good sized CB heads right now. It doesn't say but for $800 they mostly sold mini wedge ports before they came out with the new PanchItos. These heads should be great for a hot street engine, don't you think?

I didn't look at his heads when I was at the shop, but like you said they were $800 and CNC ported so they're probably good, maybe wedgeports.

Al, loved your story, it gives me hope. You're right, the second they run dry of oil bad things happen quickly. Cory was very lucky he was going slow close to home. The damage was minimal.  We'll have him back on the road before you know it.

Sorry... I can't let this go...

Cory - glad the car will be on the road again without too much fuss.  I do have to stress that this may have been builder error.

and...

In looking at the receipt from the motor build, that's a Crower 61005 Cam with Gear and bolts ($156.00). The oil pump isn't listed by model, but it's on the receipt as "C/M gland nut + FF Oil pump ($91.00).  I bet if you measure that oil pump above you'll find it's about 48mm.  The Crower cam gear... is it dished? I don't know... but its clear where the failure was.  It's clear the tang could have used 4 more mm.

I hate to see you go out of pocket on this fix.  Is there any recourse here?

Sorry to beat this horse...  Why do the cam bolt heads look like they'be been sanded down a bit? Look at them closely... they have cross hatch marks on them like they were filed a bit.  This hole thing smells like Teby. 

TRP posted:

Sorry... I can't let this go...

Cory - glad the car will be on the road again without too much fuss.  I do have to stress that this may have been builder error.

and...

In looking at the receipt from the motor build, that's a Crower 61005 Cam with Gear and bolts ($156.00). The oil pump isn't listed by model, but it's on the receipt as "C/M gland nut + FF Oil pump ($91.00).  I bet if you measure that oil pump above you'll find it's about 48mm.  The Crower cam gear... is it dished? I don't know... but its clear where the failure was.  It's clear the tang could have used 4 more mm.

I hate to see you go out of pocket on this fix.  Is there any recourse here?

Sorry to beat this horse...  Why do the cam bolt heads look like they'be been sanded down a bit? Look at them closely... they have cross hatch marks on them like they were filed a bit.  This hole thing smells like Teby. 

I'm trying to learn as we go along here, but I think the 3-bolt arrangement, like I have in the pic, indicates a flat cam. The later, dished cams were 4-bolt setups.

Judging by the thick base on the pump, it appears to be the correct pump for a flat cam, right?  Seems to correspond to the middle pump in the photo... 

And, just so you know, I never in a million years imagined that someday I'd intelligently use the word "cam" in a sentence of my own construction.

You're asking good questions and you are right, Ted, the drive tang didn't engage the slot in the end of the cam deeply enough. It is the right pump for the application- 3 bolt aftermarket (flat) cam (it's not the gear but the end of the cam that is either flat or dished, as Cory so rightly noted), but the builder didn't think to check for engagement depth. It's easy enough to do; with the pump body installed, install the gear out of index (so it hits the end of the cam but not in the slot) and measure how far it sticks out of the pump. If necessary, use a couple sockets, a vise, and press the shaft a little further into the gear to achieve the desired result- .235-.275" (this is the spec from Gene Berg I posted a couple pages back; after seeing the pics in this thread I think a minimum of .260" would be the # to shoot for).

This is one of those things that should be checked when building an engine (or if for whatever reason you are changing the pump). As the engine is now 3 years old and Cory isn't the original client of the builder (who resides in another state) I doubt it's worth looking for compensation.

You're learning, Cory. If you're there when Paul puts the short block together I'll bet if you ask him he'll let you be the one to install the lifters, drop the crank into the case, (he'll show you how to mark the bearings beforehand and make sure bearings 1, 3 and 4 all fit on their pins properly and you don't pinch a bearing), index and install the cam and torque the sucker up. And you'll be able to say YOU assembled the short block...

More on the Hoover modifications later. Al

Ted,

You may well be right-- this might be builder error.

However: If you look at the invoice, you'll find that the bill was from a shop in Ohio, made out to another guy, in January of 2013. The labor portion of the invoice was in the amount of $525.

As a small businessman-- the idea that a random guy (whom I never sold anything to), two time-zones away would even call expecting warranty for something an employee or I did almost 4 years ago would be laughable, if it weren't sad.

Assuming the builder offered a 10K mi transferable warranty: yes, the engine was used sparingly for 6500-ish miles (probably less, since the odometers are a known issue), but how is the builder supposed to know this? In 4 years, it could've gone 100K mi up and down a drag-strip every weekend.

He hit the goodwill lottery here with Paul and what he's got in it so far. Messing that up by banging on a shop in Ohio is probably not going to keep the goodwill going.

Cory- before you and Paul start re-assembling the case- can you guys install the cam (in the old bearings if you've still got them), plop the old pump body in and measure the tang engagement of the screwed up pump shaft? 

El Frazoo posted:

What do they say at McDonalds??  "I'm Lovin' it!!"  And so I am.  Paul and Cory are going to make a great team, and both will understand all that needs to be understood wrt to the engine when it gets done.  What a hoot, wish I lived in Phoenix.  My $0.02: be VERY sure all parts are balanced.  I would even pay to have this done again now, even if you think it was done when built.  A properly blue-printed engine will be SO SMOOTH -- its the right thing to do.  If there is any doubt about any of the important bits -- get new ones.  Have everything checked for out-of-round.  If you don't have the right measuring tools, go to a good engine machine shop and have them check it out.

And keep the posts and pics coming -- we love this shyt!!

Will do, Frazoo!

ALB posted:

Cory- before you and Paul start re-assembling the case- can you guys install the cam (in the old bearings if you've still got them), plop the old pump body in and measure the tang engagement of the screwed up pump shaft? 

Al wants to get to the BOTTOM of this thing, for sure!  He won't be denied!

This thing's costing you money, and you just bought it. Don't you want to know?

And you've learned something about me, too 

Well... Cory is providing this list with lots of fodder and activity  

Here's the SAMBA thread I got the size comparison photo from - it mentions replacing the hex head cam bolts with low profile button head bolts vs grinding them.  It talking about grinding the tang too - that I would think would heat it up and cause loss of temper.  http://www.thesamba.com/vw/for...wtopic.php?p=7679082

If the tang bottoms out in the cam slot before the gear is all the way in the pump housing, as Greg said, you do not want to grind the tang! Press the gear further down the shaft to expose the other end of the shaft, grind the appropriate amount of shaft away, bevel the edge of shaft and then press the gear the other way to achieve proper tang engagement.

Greg is right- the tang is heat treated (hardened) to withstand the punishment of the cam slot and grinding can destroy the temper. 

ALB posted:

This thing's costing you money, and you just bought it. Don't you want to know?

And you've learned something about me, too 

Oh, yeah... I want to know, Al!
We'll suss it all out!

It might not hurt to call the shop in Ohio and give him the link to this thread so he can read from the beginning what happened to Cory. He's not making any of this up and we're only now considering how and why it happened. They may offer something, who knows. At least they can watch for future problems in their builds.

We will definitely make sure the oil pump and cam gear meet each other correctly, no doubt about that. We'll do a couple of mock assemblies to confirm everything is where it should be etc.

We'll discuss budget and what changes could be done. Cory and I haven't discussed it but I'm sure it's implied. There is no warranty, we're just a couple of guys doing the best we can with the best guidance available from here as well as the shop I use. I'm confident we will be successful and Cory will be back enjoying his Speedster soon.

"Individual commitment to a group effort - that is what makes a team work, a company work, a society work, a civilization work"

Vince Lombardi

I'm wondering, since Al mentioned tapping on the oil pump drive shaft to drive it further into the cam slot, what is holding that shaft captive to the pump gear?  I can't remember, but isn't it just a press fit?  If it's a press fit, is it possible that the drive shaft simply, over time, found it's way out of the cam slot by pushing into the pump drive gear and causing the failure?  It doesn't have to move much, like 1/8"-3/16" (and it looks like Cory's moved about 1/8" from the photo).  Maybe I'm tilting at a windmill, but I would certainly spring for a new oil pump to avoid the same failure mechanism in the future.

Gordon Nichols posted:

I'm wondering, since Al mentioned tapping on the oil pump drive shaft to drive it further into the cam slot, what is holding that shaft captive to the pump gear?  I can't remember, but isn't it just a press fit?  If it's a press fit, is it possible that the drive shaft simply, over time, found it's way out of the cam slot by pushing into the pump drive gear and causing the failure?  It doesn't have to move much, like 1/8"-3/16" (and it looks like Cory's moved about 1/8" from the photo).  Maybe I'm tilting at a windmill, but I would certainly spring for a new oil pump to avoid the same failure mechanism in the future.

Oh! I like that theory. Nobody gets hurt and it's plausible. 

What's the average oil pressure in one of these fancy 2110 motors? Is that greater than the pressure it would take to spin that gear on the shaft? 

This is fun. It's like an automotive version of "Clue"!

It was the Mechanic, with the oil pump, in the Speedster!  

TRP posted:

Gordon Nichols posted:

I'm wondering, since Al mentioned tapping on the oil pump drive shaft to drive it further into the cam slot, what is holding that shaft captive to the pump gear?  I can't remember, but isn't it just a press fit?  If it's a press fit, is it possible that the drive shaft simply, over time, found it's way out of the cam slot by pushing into the pump drive gear and causing the failure?  It doesn't have to move much, like 1/8"-3/16" (and it looks like Cory's moved about 1/8" from the photo).  Maybe I'm tilting at a windmill, but I would certainly spring for a new oil pump to avoid the same failure mechanism in the future.

Oh! I like that theory. Nobody gets hurt and it's plausible. 

What's the average oil pressure in one of these fancy 2110 motors? Is that greater than the pressure it would take to spin that gear on the shaft? 

This is fun. It's like an automotive version of "Clue"!

It was the Mechanic, with the oil pump, in the Speedster!  

Clue!  LOL

This thread brings to mind one of my experiences. 

For part of my career (25 years) I was the director of several departments at a Trauma Center hospital, one of the largest in the county. Included one of the busiest ER in the county, a Women & Children wing (also a teaching center), a Level III Neonatal ICU & blah, blah, blah.

Long story short, I had the responsibility of addressing a surge in nosocomial infections (infections that patients acquire during a hospital stay). Sparing you the drawn out details, the solution was to switch to a closed-system device for suctioning patient wounds.

Well, a simple process became a marathon resolution mired by  committees (and subsequent sub-committees) of nurses who generated an endless self-feeding saga of hypothetical situations. It was almost to the point of "....what if a meteor were to strike the power plant during a critical procedure...". Soooo, after several months of back-and-forth, the solution settled on the process I prescribed months earlier.

In light of that (and adhering to the Musbjim keep-it-simple philosophy)  dissemble the engine, access the cause & damage, determine the repair budget, order subsequent required parts (within budget), assemble engine with assistance by a very experienced builder such as Paul. Test engine, install engine, enjoy driving the car! 

Ditto that, TRP: laughed my ass off.  You are too much . . .

The theory that a gear is pressed on to secure it, and somehow the "normal" use of it causes it to slip a bit seems very suspect.  Can't get a grip on how oil pressure would come to bear in such a way as to get the gear or shaft to move.  There has to be another way.  Am I reading right: the amount of engagement of the tang into the slot is set by how much you press the shaft into its hole??  Or does one use shims or other adjustment techniques?  Just curious; I am sure that the rebuild will get this perfect, however it is done. And of course they are going to use a new oil pump, right?  How could they not??

El Frazoo posted:

Ditto that, TRP: laughed my ass off.  You are too much . . .

The theory that a gear is pressed on to secure it, and somehow the "normal" use of it causes it to slip a bit seems very suspect.  Can't get a grip on how oil pressure would come to bear in such a way as to get the gear or shaft to move.  There has to be another way.  Am I reading right: the amount of engagement of the tang into the slot is set by how much you press the shaft into its hole??  Or does one use shims or other adjustment techniques?  Just curious; I am sure that the rebuild will get this perfect, however it is done. And of course they are going to use a new oil pump, right?  How could they not??

I've decided to 86 the oil pump and go with a simple cockpit-based foot-feed. It's a treadle arrangement, like you might've found on Ma Ingalls' spinning wheel on Little House, but it's pretty reliable.  Just gotta keep up a steady rhythm.  Clutching is problematic, but I simply double-time the treadle for a few moments after each shift.  It has a laterally-swingable arrangement that allows my wife to work it for me during city driving, or wherever there might be a lot of stop-and-go stuff.

Fingers crossed!

Jim you got to luve the beaucracy in hospitals man did I get out of that political nightmare fast at the beginning of my career  

Gordon Nichols posted:

 what is holding that shaft captive to the pump gear?  I can't remember, but isn't it just a press fit?  If it's a press fit, is it possible that the drive shaft simply, over time, found it's way out of the cam slot by pushing into the pump drive gear and causing the failure? 

It's quite the press fit- moving the gear on the shaft with a vice takes a bit of work, and although your scenario is plausable I've never heard (or read on this great interweb thingie) of an oil pump gear moving or spinning. The shaft usually comes to the outboard end of the gear so there's really nowhere for it to go.

Ted- The oil pressure in a street engine (whether a lowly 1600 or "fancy" > 2liter), while it can vary (pump size and fit in the case, oil weight, bearing clearances being some of the variables), will generally run about 10psi per 1,000rpm when warmed up; this figure is thought of by much of the automotive world as ideal and what we should aim for. Much more than this and oil will bypass the cooler at highway speeds and run hot; remember, the passage to the cooler is not temperature but pressure controlled.

And you've got it, Kelly, tang depth is set by the gear position on the shaft and there are no "shims".

OK, so we're all set for the week end, eh??  I have my popcorn ready, and also a few brewskies, since i don't get to do any wrenching.  Actually, if I WAS in AZ to help, I'm pretty sure there would be a few brewskies, even so.  In any event, let the games begin.  We really want to see this engine reborn.  Gotta have pictures guys. . . .

Cory, Pow wow with Station's management and push the "Camaraderie in the community thing" convincing them to fly the "Speedster Garage Squad" out for wrenching and brews, not necessarily in that order ......

El Frazoo posted:

OK, so we're all set for the week end, eh??  I have my popcorn ready, and also a few brewskies, since i don't get to do any wrenching.  Actually, if I WAS in AZ to help, I'm pretty sure there would be a few brewskies, even so.  In any event, let the games begin.  We really want to see this engine reborn.  Gotta have pictures guys. . . .

Yes, pics are a must guys. Forum Rule 101-234.56: Pics are mandatory.

See, it's in the rule book

 I'll handle Frazoo, Longfella, The Doctor, and all who (rightly) desire pictures, all in one post… 

 How I wish I could convey to Arizona all interested parties!  We could arrange Paul's shop like one of those 19th century surgery theaters, where the surrounding bleachers are full of the faithful, who are watching six doctors drive their unwashed arms up to the elbows into some barely-sedated patient's thorax. Lots of head-nodding, and the occasional disagreement; perhaps even a pan v. tube frame donnybrook!

-----  TIMELINE. -----

FRIDAY MORNING:  Paul and his trailer retrieve from Wedge Vee Dub Cory's silver girl and her innards, and transport same to Paul's Beetle Enhancement Lair on his Phoenix property. Cory's Speedster and engine are offloaded to allow for immediate loading of Paul's son's Beetle dragster.  Paul & son then haul to Fontana, CA, two trailers loaded with two drag Bugs to see old friends, eat carnival food, and waste gas on the strip at Bug-o-Rama '16.

SATURDAY: Cory, suffering from severe symptoms of withdrawl, attempts to visit his Speedster, but is quickly driven from the property by Paul's two substantial dogs. He decides that he can wait 'til Monday.

SUNDAY: Paul & son return, victorious, from Cali.

MONDAY/TUESDAY: Paul and Cory start gettin' after it, with many photos and videos.

WEDNESDAY: Cory, his wife, and their three daughters fly east to attend a nephew's wedding in Rochester, NY.

SUNDAY: Cory returns to AZ, itching to get back at it.

MONDAY: Cory, still off from work, can finally be of some help...

Paul may improve this schedule as he sees fit.

Sounds so exciting. We won't be coming home until Monday though. I'll text you from Wedge when I'm picking your girl up so you should be able to come by Monday to see her at my place. The dogs will be sitting in her.

"The dogs will be sitting in her."

LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLL

DO IT!  Sell it to the station execs!  

Tell them they might catch up with Boston's WCVB "Chronicle" nightly show (it's won Emmys).  Personally, I liked the "Weird Maine" segment:

http://www.wcvb.com/chronicle/...weird-maine/41798494

Or the segment on New England lighthouses is pretty cool......

http://www.wcvb.com/chronicle/...lighthouses/41595180

Done right (the Victorian Surgical Theater sounds great - With Patrick Dempsey (fake doctor, real car guy) helping out), it could be a terrific "Human Interest" segment - kind of get your minds off Joe Arpaio and "Jackalopes", right?  

A small band of intrepid men saving a classic little car for the enjoyment of all who see her.  

I love it.

we'll keep the light on for ya . . .

Need pics of the dogs too.

Paul Ellis, making it happen this morning! On his way home from the garage!

White sidewalls -- so retro . . . love it.