Another cool IFS system- Bolt on

Check this out . independant front suspension
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff42/Jogyver/Other%20Projects/P1010254.jpg
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff42/Jogyver/Other%20Projects/P1010260.jpg
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff42/Jogyver/Other%20Projects/Copy2ofP1010180.jpg
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff42/Jogyver/Other%20Projects/P1010250.jpg

I'm working on getting more details

Keep us posted. That is very, very cool.

I've seen a photo of something very similar to that suspension setup before. It was a one-off.
Looks VERY interesting.

very clean setup. Good work and thanks for sharing.

will those shocks clear a gas tank (is it marketed to bug owners, or ?)

Bolts in where the beam bolts? 'Cause if so, looks like it stretches your wheel base forward about 8-10 inches.

Or am I seeing this wrong?

Eyeball Engineering in Fresno offers a comparable product. Check under shops.

Bob

Bob, speaking of Eyeball Engineering, how are you liking your new suspension?
I'm seriously considering changing my front suspension in the next year. I find the steering on my stock setup is quite heavy, considering there is very little weight over the front end, and the steering wheel doesn't like to return to center on its own. When I put the car up on my lift the wheels turn very easily, so I don't think there is a drag somewhere in the suspension.

Double post

Joe, is that on your chop-monster projekt?

Hi, Ron
The handling is far superior to a stock front end. With sway bars front and rear, mid mount and torque bar there is little or no chatter, etc. Candidly, however I have driven only one other vw with IFS. To say that Eyeball is better than all the others is only conjecture. Thats why I chuckle regarding testaments from those who haven't driven all of them. In the end, I would do it again given the opportunity.Bruce at Eyeball is a straight dude. That's the best I can do. Mike Crouch in Paso Robles has one also. I'll try to answer any questions you have.
Bob

i would have like it better if the the coil overs had been mounted horazonaly side by side in the lower middle.

It would have been cleaner.and more compact.utilizeing every inch of space.

i also wish someone start making the 1971 Gt super beetle center steer rack it. My converted version of it on the D realy helped the car.. Plus it clears the fuel tank.

Hey, Bob

I invite you to drive my car when done. Also if you or Bruce want to do a side by side test or ride and drive with a few owners and get all of thier feed back. I would be more then up for it. I'm not trying to bash or what Bruce has made, his kit is perfect for the guy that wants to Bolt A-arms on. His design is just that, we took a completely differnt aproach and had other goals and needs we had to fill on the cars we were building.

Bruce is a great guy, I talk to him at every show I see him at.I will continue to send customers his dirrection for "bolt on" kits. Ours has never been and can never become a bolt on, due to the level of performance we want out of it. For this reason alone we will never compete with Bruce's bolt on market with our front end.

I will continue to post up when remarks are made about me or things I've said. As for things I've said about the difference in performance, those are proven facts, and if you want to find out for sure, come out and drive the p1$$ out of my car around a course then try to do the same thing with yours, when your done check the times.

Nough said..... I realy think we should get people together to do a side by side thing, it would probably be good for both companies...

No Cory ... It's not on my car . I'm going wih the old skool single transverse spring froma 32 ford 5" drop axle.
When building this type of IFS the A arm geometry can be easily changed for fitment to a car. With a small change in the design the shocks could be mounted horizonatlly.
This suspension is very similar to F1 and Indy car IFS systems. It just has the basics.

Kevin

Not saying anything good or derogatory about you or your product. But with every post of mine I shortly read some statement by you that smacks of "faintly demeaning praise". If its not clear to you by now, I am very happy putting around the foothills, driving over to the coast, running up to yosemite. Not interested in comparisons or your product. Good Luck

Bob,

First I was not going to post in this thread until you made your comment about what others have said. Then I took that as a negative statement toward me.

I understand how happy you are with your product and how you want to spread the word for Bruce. I think if you truely want to help promote Bruce's product, having a side by side compairison would be great. It would show just how nice the ride quality is, and how much over stock it improves performance.
If you take what I say a negitive toward Bruces a-arm system, your wrong. I am only pointing out the differences. You are right, I have never driven his system, however you have to understand that I did not need to. The "performance" flaws in his suspension are easy to see if you know what your looking for. When designing a suspension there is more to it then just making "A" shaped frames and attaching them to the frame of your car. There is a ton of data, angles, and loads that have to considered when making a suspension part. I am very proud of what we've made and wish we could have made it as a bolt in unit. We could not due to what we wanted out of it. Bruce's a-arm kit is great for the guy that wants a bolt in, and should out perform a stock beam style suspension hands down.

Let's all play nice together and enjoy our hobby with out having any ill feelings toward each other.

Amen

Hey Ron, if your steering is heavy and does not want to return to center, you most likely have an alignment problem, camber, caster, and toe in problem.

Out of frustration with few if any around here who know how to align one of our cars, them being the loose collection of non related parts that comprise most our cars, a laser, some string, some stantions, and some thought followed by minor adjustments, may very well make your car handle much more properly.

There are other threads by parties more knowledgable than me that have many good ideas on owner self alignment. You might want to consider it before stuffing in a new front end and still having to align it.... Front and rear alignments can be done pretty readily, and on most our cars they need both....done in conjunction with each other....

And Joe, that is a fantistic looking front end...I want one....I don't need it, but what a fine lookin' piece......reminds me of a girl I once knew...opps thread drift....

Check the posts. I didn't volunteer. I was asked what I thought of mine. I answered that I couldn't make comparisons because I had no experience with other manufacturers products. I have no interest in reading about your superior engineering, perceived or otherwise. You telling me that I'm wrong about how I interpreted your statements is nothing more than your opinion. But, you are entitled to it.

Don't get me wrong it's a nice set up But if your wanting it on a 356 replica and want a 16 gallon fuel tank your gonna have a\ to take a hammer to the tanh and lose some precious fuel space to clear the rack to colum connection.

That's my only real beaf with it.

Tmpusfugit, I agree, there is something not right with my front suspension. Almost everything is new and the alignment is fresh, but that doesn't mean that the alignment is correct and all the parts work as they should. One problem that I can see, but to date haven't been able to fix, is that my steering shaft rubs up against the top of the steering tube that the shaft runs through. I'm not sure how to solve this problem, since the steering box is sitting where it should be (steering box shaft lines up with the steering wheel shaft).
Ron

You can adjust the angle by loosening the front most bolt holding the steering box on and then tighting the rear most (or closer to the driver bolt). This will tilt the steering box input shaft down and possibly pull the shaft down away from the end of the tube.

Also as far as the steering feeling heavy, there are two things to check. 1) check the amount of toe out the front wheels have. Anything thing less or more then 1/8-3/16ths of an inch is too much.
The second thing is to check your caster/camber eccentric possition.

I had the same problem on my car, which was somebodys unfinished barn find. I had to remove the steering tube, cut away the offending fiberglass, redrill the hole in the firewall about 5/8" higher, re-fiberglass the tube back in the body, and all was well. Just not done right the first time. And I fully agree with Kevin regards both toe in as well as caster adjusters. There are custom camber adjusters from BugPak and others that will allow more camber adjustment...I have needed them on my last two or three cars to get the caster remotely correct. Also caster may need some shims, also easy to do, but needed in my car...you need just a bit of toe in, I usually have found a total of 1/8" just about right....
http://cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=429

Thanks for the info, guys.
Kevin, if I change the angle of the steering box won't that affect how the steering box shaft lines up with the steering wheel shaft. I realize the steering box coupler allows for some difference in angles, but not much. I wonder if lowering the steering wheel column would also work?
I do plan on getting the car in for an alignment (again) this Spring.

How do these alignment specs look?
Front toe 1/8"
Rear tow 0"
Front camber -1 degree
rear camber -5 degrees
Caster 4 to 5 degrees

How do these alignment specs look?
Front toe 1/8"......this should be toe out not in. the front of the tires should be slightly wider appart then the rear of the front tires. This allows for two things. 1) steering wheel return and making a turn. 2) keeps the car more stable at high speeds (like on the freeway)

Rear tow 0".....No way! atleast 1/8 - 1/4 inch toe in, where the front of the tires are closer together then the rear of the tires. This helps the car track in a straight line and also makes the car more stable at high speed. If you set it at zero, the car will be very squierly do to the short wheel base.

Front camber -1 degree ....good if you mean neg. .1-.3 degrees

rear camber -5 degrees.... at this amout your rear tires will wear out quick. I think you meant .50 degrees.

Caster 4 to 5 degrees.....this is good, however I'm not sure you can get that much with a lowered front end. Caster helps to keep the car stable at high speeds and slows down the steering. So if you have too little the car will feel darty (super quick steering) if you have too much it will be like riding a chopper.

Hope this helps clear some things up.

Thanks Kevin. Let me see if I have this right:

Front toe 1/8" out
Rear toe 1/8 to 1/4" in
Front camber -0.1 to -0.3 degree
rear camber -0.5 degrees
Caster 4 to 5 degrees (if possible)

I have a stock front beam-not lowered

Ron,

That looks about right..... As far as a stock front beam, it must be lowered in some way, other wise the front end would be high (so to speak)... ???

No, I have a stock beam-no adjusters. I did have drop spindles on at one time, but it dropped the front end too much and the tires rubbed on the body.

I do not have a horse in the mine is better than yours race, however I wish these aftermarket IFS systems were available before I went out and had one custom engineered.
Mine is designed for 17 x 7 rims with 996 brakes on a custom spindle, and fits a flared body, so not applicable to everyone's needs.

I would consider licensing the design for a one time use, or supply it in kit form should someone wish to build ones own IFS system. The steering rack is from an Australian Ford Turana so RHD - a suitable LHD unit will need to be fitted and should be no big deal.
Weld on only and it involves fabricating a tube structure ahead of the Napoleons hat so not for the mechanically challenged.

http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu224/RobertStraghan/356%20Speedster/Speedsterfrontend0002.jpg

hi
this suspension was developed by lonnie gilbertson in oregon
he built a non-fendered car called the firebug that had a five inch dropped axle(early ford style)
the car was in a show in oregon?,and driving home from the show the axle broke and the car was pretty much destroyed
while rebuilding the car he developed this inboard rocker as a one-off
lonnie is a very sharp fabricator and built an oakland show winner
back in the day (ambr)
this may clear up some of the mystery
thanks bruce

Bruceeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! I didn't know you were an SOC member. Thanks for the tip about Ellie.
Troy

Totally have to disagree about one alignment setting. Front should be toed in not out Ron. Toe out is for a racetrack or an autocross car. It allows a certain amount of instability and ease of direction change, not really something you want on the street. With toe out the front will wander and the steering will feel twitchy. Toe-in, just a little, will make the car feel stable but still responsive. I run 1/16" toe-in on my Spyder, have excellent stability and handling, and have seen 125 mph with no problems. Stock beam on my car, FYI. I align my own cars, have laser toe plates, scales, and a digital camber gauge, have for years.

Bentley 66-69 Bug manual states total toe-in for front wheels at 1/2 of a degree. This comes out mathematically at .11 inches(plus or minus .05" or .25 degree, expressed as 15' or 15 minutes) for a 25" diameter tire. 1/16" = 0.0625, 1/8" = 0.125. It also states that positive values mean TOE-IN in the specs. And just to clarify, by toe in I mean that the front of the wheels are closer together than the back side.

Ron, if the steering wheel doesn't want to return to center by itself, and all parts are verified good and alignment is on, you may want to install some caster shims. Caster for cars and trail for bikes/motorcycles is a leaning back of the steering axis which gives high speed stability and return to center.

Saw this laser alignment set up at Daytona/Rolex:

http://s49.photobucket.com/albums/f254/speedster356/Rolex%2024%20-%202012/?action=view¤t=DSC00979.jpg&mediafilter=noflash

I have been in my garage all night dorking with a dead cylinder.

I took a measuring tape to the Sloppy Jalopy's front tires, and they're precisely 1/16" toed in. I had a problem with bump-steer, then came up off of a couple dollars and had the problem corrected professionally.

Where the tires had been perfectly aligned -- no variance front to back -- they fixed the problem with that very slight correction. I have to agree with Danny that toe-in eliminated the BS wobble and bump-steer complications. I also routinely crest 100 mph in my car.

Not on three cylinders, though. It's made chugging noises above 80 lately. I'll be fixing that this weekend. ;)

Thats a drag Cory! Any ideas? Spark,Fuel or Mechanical?

The cylinder's probably toed out. :)

I'll post a separate thread today with my suspicions. Mechanical, I think, in the head.

Toed out, huh? Check that cylinder for camel toe.

I agree with dr evil on toe settings,but on the a-arm units like mine and kevins they seem to be happier with a very slight amount of negative toe

Check that cylinder for camel toe.

Just did, not quite . . .

http://datsun510.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=24799&title=lz23-engine-build-2cpiston-crown-2c-89mm-wiseco-custom-pistons&cat=3621