another issue..

ok, need some opiniions again. One thing I forgot about as I went to a type 4 engine was the modifications done to my vehicle prior to my owning it. I forgot the transmission "horns" were trimmed to allow it to be a test mule for CMC. I called the prior owner( who will not admit being tied to CMC in any shape, way or form) who had a wealth of info about what CMC had done with my car. Seems it has had two different engines in it. One the rotary I am currently removing and a 911 engine. In order to place the engine in the car, the trans horns were "snipped" slightly.
the opinions I need are:
1. Can they be rewelded and still be structurally sound for a moderate HP engine?
2. I have a rear engine mount on the car that was used for the rotary and the 911. Could I use it to secure the engine and not have issues with torquing the frame?

Paul, Jake, Joe, give me some ideas?

Wow, that's a tough one. Looking at the pictures if the transaxle is where it's supposed to be in relation to the chassis the horns were snipped quite a bit. Being that that area is crucial to the integrity of the pan I can see how it would be difficult to get it back to stock but I'd venture to say it can definitely be done by a pro. There's even some reinforcing kits for that area by CSP and Gene Berg that can help you strengthen it if needed.

Michael, OUCH!.......Get the welder out and get busy......It can be done! Do your homework......You gotta make that Type 4 work...you just gotta!

the question is..its beyond my welding abilities, because if I did it, I would have to gusset it all in a triangular style to ensure its strength....I am currently researching it, believe me!


Michael

Mike , How closer are you to Houston? Do you have a Mig welder?
Joe

within 20 miles...
and yes I have a MIG but no shielding gas...but that can be corrected...

Michael

After looking at the awesome work Joe has done with his car.....I must say......If anybody can figure out a right way to do it, it would be Joe! Fantasic craftmanship Joe! After seeing your pics....your an insperation!

This is a structual weld situation, I do hobby welding but with this particular task, I would have someone that has extensive HD welding and fabrication skills to this mod by actually cutting back even further on the existing frame horns then using a portion of another frame horn with a support within

Mike , Can you come up with two tail ends of the engine mount segments by the 17th ? I'll be in Houston for most likely 17th to 19th. Call me at work tomorrow. I'll email you my #
Joe

The frame horns are like a segment of pipe. We could install a sleeve pipe material within the frame ends and then into two donar end pieces. You would need to have the vw trans mounted with the mounting bracket to use as a jig for proper fitment. Don't forget the frame mounting bolts. It would be suggested to purchase a traction system fo additional support. There is a guy in Bristol ,Wi that sells a reasonably price traction bar. He is on Samba. I have one . I like it!

It's an pretty easy task to replace the horns if you measure twice before cutting. Just pick up a couple of good frame horns from a donor chassis.

We usually trim the old horn near the spigot that exits the horn for the heater cable, trim the side flanges, grind the spigots off . Then we cut the replacements just forward of the spigots and pound them onto the old horn stubs. This is a pretty decent way of getting an initial alignment. Bolt a trans cross member/mount holder to the horns for spacing, pound them the rest of the way on and weld around the seams.

You can "V" cut the horns (like the chassis tunnels are cut when shortening) for additional "surface" to weld to if you like. It's VERY easy to do, you just have to picture what your doing first and measure well. The old trans mount cross member is crucial for spacing however.

Luck !

TC

Now might be time to consider if you want to go with a 901/911 5 spd or stick with the T1 4 spd. Adjusting linght of the horn pieces could more easily adapt the longer 911 trans. Boy, I hate to see that H2O rotary go out the door! Seems like it was a sweet package.

Wolf,
I just could not get the thermal issues fixed..and I hate getting 3 fire extinguishers to the mile... I made the jump, now its time to do it. I want to see if I can have this running and dependable by suummer, so doing the trans switch too is not a good option.


Michael

Mike,
Already stated my rotary preference - you know how enamored I am with those engines. But you're going to T4 and the only thing that really matters is that you get a FUN GOOD DRIVING CAR!!!

The nature of the rotary engine is pretty low on torque. The firing pulses are also extremely smooth (each revolution of the rotar effectively has six ignition hits and there's TWO rotars on concentric shaft in stagger arrangement). You can build a pretty light duty drive train for a rotary because of that, they are almost turbine smooth. The t4 may actually make more torque stock and if you let any of our hot rod builders near it, it will make MUCH more torque. And will not have the smooth firing pulse that the rotary has. It will be tougher on the mounts.

Long and short, your welding changover must be very good. The weld quality and material must be better than the rotary required. Hire someone if you need to. Bribe someone if you can. But don't accept pooor quality here, it will haunt you forever. We're all cheering for you buddy - get r dun! angela

If you are using a 901 Porsche transaxle and assuming the nose end is well supported along with the trailing arms, then you can install a Type 4 by simply supporting it at the end using a mount bar as the 912/912E cars do. These cars do not mount onto horns as the VW cars do, but instead mount the engine/transaxle as a whole at the both the front and rear end. On the other had, if you want the VW setup, you can weld some piece to make up for the removed sections of the horns but it should be done by someone experienced in welding and some reinforcement is definity recommended! Good luck.

Michael,
Give me a call at 850-758-5268 concerning the problem you are having. I may have just what you need sitting on the trailer now. From what Joe was talking about, I can have what you need in your driveway by the end of the weekend.
Jim

Jim , what do you have ? I will be in Houston early next week to give Mike a hand repairing the engine forks.

Joe

Angela.
my goal is to make it to PA this year.

Michael

Man...
I have watched flame wars, petty bickering...but you know what?? People are going out of their way to help me out. I am very humbled by the experience as this was what I raised to believe in. Joe Soltis is definately going out of his way to help me out, of which I am eternally grateful. Jim Anderson, is bring me an ENTIRE rear section of a pan from the inspection plate back.....he is going out of his way..... Angela, Jake, Alan, Paul are all very helpful with any questions I have..I tell you..its humbling. All I can say is, if anyone of you guys are going thru Houston, you always have a place to stay...or if I can help in other ways, I will. This is a great community.

Thanks to everyone.

Michael

The road to Carlisle is an easy one, looking forward to meeting up with you and the many other owners !

well..hopefully it will be in my 359, if not..maybe the 350z

Mike this is going to cost you. ........ a few cold beers!

Joe - you are one AWESOME GUY! And your car is gorgeous. Love the color and the workmanship. angela

Joe,
Is that one keg or two? Whats your brand, bub?


Michael

Michael,

Getting Started is the most difficult part of any project:

1. If the engine is supported currently at the rear as well as the front, I would inspect the "Rear Sub-Frame" connection to the pan.

2. If the Rear Sub-Frame is reasonably ridged then block the car on a level surface. Remove the Wheels and attempt measure Front & Reas Suspension in an attempt to detect any Twist in the Pan & Front/Rear Suspension. If its "Twisted" this could be a concern because the Doors & other Hindged body pieces could be effected.

3. If the Rear Sub-Frame is less then ridged consider running two 1.125 OD X .095 Bars from the Rear Sub-frame through the rear fire wall and attach them to a Roll Bar attached to the Pan. The Bar will have to be installed first and this will be a good Stress related addition to the pan. If you don't have any method of transfering the weight from the rear to the front the car will flex and roll stiffness/pan regidity will be greatly effected due to the modified pan frame horns being shortened. If you dont to consider this method of strengthing the Rear Sub-Frame another consideration is to lengthen the shortened frame horns and connect the two pieces of tubing to the lengthened frame horns and still tie them with the roll bar.

4. The Rotory & 911 engines weight more a then even the type 4 engine and this will be a benefit to you because the decrease in weitht will mean you will have less to support.

Anyway you look at the engineering problem you will have to deal with the fact the Pan/Frame Horns have been mofified and so you now have to deal with the loss of rigidity and have to gain it back.

There is no easy way to do it so you just need to get started with you tape measure, plumb bob's, string, soap stone and I would not Mig the welds. Unless you have a 230V Mig I would use a Tig or Arc Welder for good penetration. If you do it correct the first time; you won't have to do it right the second.

Remember - Measure Twice Cut Once!

Jack

My last car had the 912 motor wit the rear support. Big problem. THe rear frame section is in no way designed to support the weight of the engine. If you redo the support,like I did, then you will be ok. However,, that was about as much work as fixing the frame horns. It does have the added benifit of making the whole rear section stronger.

Jack, ben;

pan is not torqued...car was used sparingly as a test mule at CMC then spent the next 5 years as a show car. Owner suffered a stroke, then car was covered and left for 3 years. I purchased it and it has seen very little road. The rear support I just removed may be of benefit if I can adapt it to the type 4.

Biggest problem here is finding a big enough mig welder. 220 are hard to come by in a rental status, my MIG is light duty so it will not have the penetration needed. So either I buy a 220 or find one that a friend has...calls are out. Anyone in the Houston area???

Joe has some good ideas, alot like TC's so we will do a repair that looks like to me will be very durable and stiff.

Wish me luck guys!

michael

Judging by those pictures you posted now we know it's possible....

Tips on welding .
A full penetration weld is accomplished by proper welding techniques. Joint preparation is the number one issue why welds fail. Insufficent joint gap, misalignment are a few things to look out for. The other reason is fatigue. Too fast of travel of the weld electrode , wire etc will also cause a poor root pass and or lack of penetration. Surface prep is also a must. Area must be free of paint , gease paint etc. Mig and tig are great for thin material. SMAW (stick) 1/8 and up. 20 + years in the welding industry , QC inspection , nuclear , petro chemical and pipeline fields have helped build up the knowledge. Also have a background in coatings and composite materials.
Mike's in good hands. I'll make make it look pretty for him I promise.
Also drove and built sprints , late models and tunnel hull OB hydros.

You Da MAN JOE!......You Da MAN!

Joe,
You planning a trip to Missouri soon?

What part of Missouri? I'll might be in Kansas City ,Mo in May or June. I was in Sugar Creek ,Mo last week.
Joe

Joe,
I sent a few pictures of the rear frame section. Does it still look like it will work for what you have planned for Michael?
Jim

its excellent Jim..thanks oh so very much!!


Michael

I'll load it on the trailer and have it in your driveway on Saturday afternoon.
Jim

Man; you've got to love this site! You're truly out of this world guys!!

Ricardo...its amazing....


michael

Michael,

Rental Mig's & Tigs (Here in California)are very common. They are offered at industrial Gas & Welding Equipment Suppliers. The Rent them, offer Schooling on Welding as well as provide suggestions for exotic metal fusing.

You may consider "Brazing" because this technique utilizes "Low Heat" so the Metals being joined don't loose their hardness or temper.

Prior to Tig & Mig all Race Car Ferrous Space Frames were Brazed. Another consideration however I would suggest if possible current Tig or Mig.

Mock up the T4 Case with #1 & #4 Cylinder & Heads "Bolted together so you can ge the width clearance engineered; attach loosely the exhaust system. This will assist you with length & Width Clearance.
Height for Cooling Shroud & Carburator Air Cleaners will account for vertical heigth.

Then its basically "Tacking" the rear sub-frame supports and I think you can take it from there.

Without insulting your intelligence: visualize having to remove the engine once it is totally installed & performing routine maintenacne. Your design should take thest two areas in consideration or you will have to "Re-Modify" it again if you choose pull the engine or etc.

Good Luck,

Jack

Jack, Mike's car is a 359 which is a bit longer than your 356. The engine compartment is also larger. The CMC 359 was originally design for an air cooled motor . With the original design of this car in mind we will achieve the required engine/ trans alignment and clearance issues. A mock engine fit up is not required since we are not modifying the rear chassis. Mike's issue is a simple fix though there will be some extensive prep work prior to the actual welding. Brazing/gas welding is old school technology. Back it the old racing days gas welding was cheap. It is not used for structural welds today. Newer weld machines using MIG and TIG processes have given the welding industry far more quality welds when following proper electrode (weld filler material) selection and proper weld procedures . With current variables and various rod/wire thicknesses actual heat affect areas have be reduced. More control and higher quality welds. Here's a tip - Mig w/shield gas will have a slightly a lower heat input on thinner materials than Flux core ( No shielding gas) mig welding. I'll give Mike a crash course in welding .
Joe