Another opinion on type 1 versus type 4

The following is a posted response from the CLF; the source, Mark Herbert, is a respected engine builder and 1/4 mile racer:

"It would be hard to build a Type 4 motor that would hold a candle to a well built 2275 Type 1. The type 4 is heavy and expensive. Personally I think they are neat motors and if you want to put 100 miles a day on your car at 80MPH then it will last longer than a type one but either can be built to last within their own parameters. You can build a 2275 with stock/modified rods or a set of 150 dollar I-beams and a welded or Forged crank for cheap. Set the compression at 9 to 1, run a K8 or 86B cam and a set of CNC 044s, some 45/48 carbs and a 1 5/8" header and you will run 12s with a stock trans. You`ll have about 180 HP. To build a type 4 that will make that kind of power will cost double; just the cooling system and the pistons and exhaust will break you."

George, sigh, give it a rest. You have made your views very well-known about what engine in your opinion is better. I respectfully don't agree.

For those of you who are interested in an engine upgrade, do your homework & certainly don't rely on cut and pasted comments. Keep an open mind; both engines are good and each has their own strengths.

Oh Jake, come out and ppppllllaaaayyyyy!

Note that it is Mark Herbert's view, an accomplished racer and turbo VW engine person. Anyone considering a new engine and reading posts on this forum might be interested in an opinion from someone other than me or Jake.

George, why not ask Shad Law for his opinion?

You are considering his new biral cylinders for your next engine. I am 100% certain Shad will beg to differ with your posted expert with his status quo conclusions, though I do agree T4's are more expensive to build.

PS: It isn't Jake that keeps harping on the T1 Vs T4 engine debate.

Shad is finishing up the 94mm biral cylinders for my new engine, and yes, he likes type 4s because you can go bigger on the cylinders, among other things. I don't recall, but I assume you have a type 4 engine in your car.

Did you get the issue of VW Trends that had pictures of some of the more respected engine VW builders on the cover (including Pat Downs)? Probably 99% of the engines they build are type 1 - I wonder why?

Type 1 engines are still being built after 50 some-odd years, but type 4 engines were discontinued after only a few years of production. I wonder why?

Forums are for opinions, and sometimes controversy and disagreement. So, we agree to disagree...

Yes George, I did research the subject. For me there was no question, T4 all the way.

I read the Vw Trends in which some of the top builders were interviewed, but do you suppose the "who's who" were selected mainly because they ALL live in Southern California? I suppose that means there are no other wrench/design guys in the other states worth noting, right. Hell, those guys build T1's because that is what the public wants, but in Europe, and especially in Germany (and of course in Cleveland, GA) the exact opposite is true. High speeds on der autobahn tend to cook der T1, ja! Kaput.

I have seen Shad's full critique of T1 Vs T4 engines, comparing and contrasting as an engineer will do, and his list of benefits goes well beyond the "larger cylinders" argument you mention. Ask him to go into detail sometime.

I respect that others like the T1 package better; not trying to gather any converts. Actually I like having what others consider a cult engine. That's the ticket, boo T4's, yea T1's!

George,

I found this tread with posts by Shad & Jake. I will send it to you in case this link doesn't work.

Erik

shoptalkforums.com/bbs/NonCGI/Forum1/HTML/001411.html

Shad Laws
Member
Posts: 1159
From:Evanston, IL, USA
Registered: Aug 2001
posted 09-18-2001 09:43 AM
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Hello-
The thing to look at here is duty, not peak power. Rating engines by peak power is useful to some degree and does well on brochures, but is useless to one who wants to figure out what it can actually do over a longer course of time.

Most automotive engines are somewhat light duty. They can have a high peak power, but are designed to run at a constant lower power. This is a big difference when compared to, say, a big rig diesel. It is a heavy duty engine. While the peak power number may look small (~200hp or so for the "smaller" ones), it can more or less run at that peak power constantly.

The Type I engine is only designed to do a maximum duty of about 30hp. There's not too much you can do to avoid this - the poor case stud design, weak mag alloy, small heads with comparitively little cooling, etc. all make this a 30hp engine. If this is understood and followed, the engine may last awhile. Otherwise, it becomes a firecracker.

The Type IV is a much heavier-duty engine than the Type I. While it is no comparison to a big rig, it beats the hell out of a Type I. For example, let's look at the late 2.0 bus engine. People drove them more or less at full throttle, and they lasted over 125k easily. Let's estimate this to be a 60hp duty (unless at the peak power point, of course). In Europe, they drove the 1.6 engine at full throttle, too, and they commonly died before 50k.

So, there ya have it! You can actually USE the added T4 power, as opposed to a T1. If you use all the available power from a tweaked T1, it becomes a firecracker, which is fine for a drag car, but sucks for those of us that want to drive a heavier car (i.e. the T3), a quicker car (cruise at 75-80mph), climb mountains (a HUGE power drain), etc.

I used to have a 1600 in my Ghia. I drove it all over the place, including on some long-distance trips. However, I always felt that I was pushing it, and the wear it got and the temperatures it ran agreed with that thought. With my 2.0 in the same car, I can drive all over the place WORRY FREE. I've skyrocketed the head temp of my T1 to 475F and had to stop - I could go further. I cannot get my T4 over 410F, and that was full throttle up a steep mountain grade fully loaded (~3000lb car) with air conditioning on for minutes at a time. Can't beat it...

Take care,
Shad


IP: 64.193.175.245

ray greenwood
Member
Posts: 1941
From:Dallas Texas
Registered: Jul 2001
posted 09-18-2001 12:30 PM
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Shad, excellent post on the aspect of duty cycles. This goes for all types of mechanical parts, trannies, suspension etc. In general, street cars are far more durable in design and manufacture than cars made for track only. They have to brave the elements, overheating in traffic...poor driving habits and a wider range of power band usage. The type four survives all of these with less self destruction than the type 1. I reccomend for big phatty to look back in the forum at some of what people have found when they tear down a type four compared to type one. Cases rarely out of round, cranks usually only needing polishing...if the oil was changed....heads with less cracks... case studs that rarely pull...a cooling system that works well...heads that crack less...and rarely ever...a cracked case. Ray

George, Its pretty lame when you have to make a post here from another forum to prove your point...

Yep, all those guys on the cover of the mag were TI specialists, I just had an interview with Trends for a 2-3 page centerfold on my shop and myself, so look for that in the next 3-4 months..
There are only a few TIV specialists in the US, by the same token there are only a few TI specialists in Europe..reason is that most Americans want balls to the wall power that don't last very long, not many "Top end" seekers out there in our country that own these cars

I did not deserve to be on that cover anyway, as I'm not an expert.

It seems odd to me that you always instigate the nonsense TI versus TIV posts, and me being the advocate never starts one anywhere....I must defend my thoughts and feelings and stop horse shit started by people that have maybe built a single stock TIV bus engine and had a hard time with it.(because in stock form they are a pain in the ass)

When someone that builds as many as we do enters the conversation,thats the only time I'll listen, and Since Greg at Fat Performance is the only one that comes close I won't be listening to anyone else.

George, Give it up and realize that until you get the new engine built you are playing with a 2110cc toy thats as generic as a 350 Chevy!

BTW, If you ever wondered what powers the VW that holds the land speed record for a VW Beetle, its a sub 2.0 liter TIV....I wonder why

Right now theres another TIV engine being tuned to beat that land speed record, it has a 44mm stroke crankshaft and last I hard was making power to 15,000RPM and it does not have a cam(s)I sold the guys some parts and balanced it for them.

Any engine can last for 10 seconds at full throttle,try full throttle for hours if you wanna put something to the test!

Jake, I don't agree that opinions from other forum threads are lame; valid opinions from qualified people are generally worth sharing. In fact the current thread on the CLF (www.cal-look.com) about type 1 versus type 4 where you have posted your views is very interesting.

Okay George.....

I have a question for you.

Just for the record:

How many VW TI engines have you built?


How many VW TIV engines have you built?

How many TI powered cars have you driven? what were their engine sizes,how many miles did you put on them?

How many TIV powered cars?? what were their engine sizes, how many miles did you drive them?
( do not interject any other vehicles here because they are not in question, I could care less about other vehicles, I have a point to make and other vehicles don't even exist to me)

Answer these questions George, and I'll answer any question you may have concerning my experience. I think that after these questions are answered honestly the general findings will be that Mr. Brown bases all his assumptions on pure hearsay and lacks the experience to back up the hearsay with his own personal tests or findings.

Simple Questions:

If the T1 is so much better than the T4, why did Porsche select the T4 to power its 914 model and never selected the T1 for any model? Are you familiar with the IMSA GTU 4 cylinder 914s of the 80's, powered by T4 engines? I can't believe lower cost is a suitable engine selection criteria for people with Porsches or Porsche replicas, or are you just pretenders? Unless you are building an all out race motor, the T4 is still way less expensive than a real Porsche engine.

Chris Foley
www.tangerineracing.com

I have only rebuilt two type 1 and one type 4 engines. Drove four type 1 engined cars many many miles over the years (1957, 1967, 1973, and 1974).

The type 4 was in my girlfriends 412 and I grew to hate that car. It was heavy, slow, and had the personality of a slug, whereas all the type 1 cars I had were fun to drive, even though they were relatively underpowered. I only did minor performance mods on two of the type 1s.

How many Jaguar 6, Ferrari V12, or Wankel single rotor engines have you rebuilt? How many BMW/5/6/7, Moto Guzzi, Laverda Jota, or Ducati bevel-drive SS Desmo V-twins? Oh, I might also add that none (that's zero) of the engines I've ever built have grenaded.

It's kinda all relative, Jake.

GEORGE, IT IS NOT RELATIVE AT ALL, I KNEW you would bring some other nonsense about other vehicles into this again. I'll answer the question:

I have built 3 watercooled engines in my life, 2 of them wer 1949 Ford tractor engines, and the other was a generic chevy 350 for my work truck..THATS IT. How many 10-16 stage Turbo shafts have you built,fuel control rebuilds? How many Power turbine accessory drives have you setb up correctly? since "Its all relative figured I'd go off topic as well!

see, just as I suspected....Mr. Brown based his assumptions on a heavy slow, ugly car, he has never driven a TIV concversion beetle, nor built the engine in question. It is fact that Mr. Brown has based his opinion, on others opinions and hearsay...

I rest my case, Mr. Brown has beaten himself.

I'm not sure why you are referring to rebuilding things that are not 4-cycle engines, but I can go down that path with you too, Jake. I'm not trying to "beat" anybody, but when someone touts their products as longly and loudly as you do, maybe someone else should speak up once in a while. I mean, the theory that it's not a decent engine unless it is JAKE RABY built is just a bit thin, you know? You are not the only one with engine building experience.

And If the type 4 is the absolute KING, why do you even bother with building type 1 engines?

Yeah, I don't build engines for a living, mainly because I found out that dealing with people that buy them is usually a big PITA, the hours are long, and the money is not that good; owning two motorcycle dealerships taught me that lesson.

I deal with TI engines for one reason..They pay the bills. There is much more profit in building a TI engine, about 20% more!!

The TIV does take longer and cost me more capital to buy the parts, but its more than that to me...The TI engines are not fun to me, I feel like anybody else that puts one together, while a TIV is totally different, atleast to me...

Hell as it is now I turn dfown more work than we do, its not about me and us being the nly guys that can do good work.

As for as the engine buuilding biz goes, its like anything else, you have to know how to choose the customers that you can satisfy. Some guys would not be happy if an engine builder boxed their wife up and sent her out in the engine crate to "Have some fun" along with the new shiny engine. There are certain people I would never do a job for because they would never be happy, even if you make a huge profit, if you are married to the job you never make a dime.

I very,very seldom have any customer problems, when they exist its normally because the customer does not pay as agreed,then I initiate the problem. Most of my customers are close friends, I have received gifts from people I have never met, plane tickets,hell even got a German Mauser given to me before, and had one customer give me a damn near perfect 914 for free.......

George,
I agree that someone should speak against me sometime, it makes it much more entertaining for the lurkers...

However it gets really old when the same guy brings up the same crap every time...

Think about how many of us on this forum get into conflicts with each other, think about how many of us here have goten into to conflicts with you solely. The record stands, and the archives from the old email list will prove it.

That's why I am glad I went with Kurt Mezger for a 2176 Type 1. He builds Type 1 engines for more reasons than just paying the bills... ;-) He races them himself, as well.

Kurt does with the TI, what I do with the TIV....its the same.

And that's fine, you should absolutely stick with what you do best and believe in. So, then why build/sell Type 1's if you obviously believe them to be so inferior to the Type IV? Oh yeah, you already said you can fleece Type 1 buyers for a 20% profit... a higher margin than you can get for a Type IV. ;-)

Thats really because the parts are easier to get..

Don'tget me wrong like TI engines too, my 66 with the 2332 makes 222BHP, but its merely a toy..

I hope one day to never have to build TI engines, only TIV engines, but the chances of that are slim. Its not that I don't like a TI, it just that one does not get the same feeling in the spinde when some asks what size it is and the reply is the same as everyone elses.

I learned about VW engines from the TI, and I don't forget my roots, but I found the TIV shortly thereafter I liked it and have since then.

Nobody fleeces anyone, you'd cry if you knew how much profit margin there is in most TI parts...trust me, we all may love this, but we have to eat too you know...

Jake, I'll make a deal with you: I won't bring up the same type 1 crap if YOU don't bring up the same type 4 "superiority" crap. As far as I'm concerned it's pancakes versus waffles, and waffles are more expensive.

But I'll take a waffle anyday over a pancake,pancakes are so damn plain!

See, I have never started a thread about TIV superiority here or or any list, I'm always the defense..

George,

It's seems like you bring it up. Now you give Jake ultimatums. I don't get it.

When people ask, opinions are given. Let it go at that. I, as well as many others, can appreciate opinions. Just let it go at that.

George,

I've got a type I. I appreciate the practicality and availability of parts for a reasonable expense. I appreciate it for what it is- a nice VW engine. I also appreciate the majority of your posts, except for two recurring themes:

1) The vast superiority of the IM product, and how a convertible D really IS a speedster.
2) The vast inferiority of the Type 4, and how it really ISN'T a Porsche engine.

Please, for the good of this forum and for the sake of all of our sanity- give it a rest. We all understand how you feel... even the new guys. Your car is cool, your history is rich, your knowledge is deep, but it's YOU that starts these fights. Lets be constructive.

Jake,

I own a small business. I turn away a lot of work, and I agree with you about choosing your customers wisely. I have work I love to do, and work that pays the bills. I'm not out to "fleece" anybody, just do a good job on both kinds of work, and make a decent living. I understand that all I really have is my reputation. If I may make a suggestion:

This forum, and those like it, are all a LOT of people know about you. It does you, and your business no good to get sucked into this kind of mud-fest. You've got to respond like the professional I know you are. Rise above the fray.

Everybody may have a right to an opinion, but it doesn't make every opinion right. Defend what you believe with honor...

Stan,
Thanks for the wise words.
I hate these conversations, but I'm a winning kind of hard headed old Jarhead that does not have a white flag in his possession.....Quite honestly I don't gain very many customers at all for these forums, I do it totally for fun and to take a break every hour or so of my day...

Iget some negative press about it sometimes, but one thing is for sure, everyody knows I'm hardcore and won't back down.
Picking customers is an art....LOL

How many times must this T-1 vs T-4 be brought up on this forum.
They both are good engines and have there own place depending on
how you want to drive your Speedster. Me, I wanted an engine I
could drive on the Interstate at 70 to 80 MPH and know the engine
(T-4) was built for it and would last. Even this Mark Herbert
said the T-4 would be the engine of choice. Now maybe a 160 hp
T-1 could beat from a red light (not my driving style), but my 160
hp T-4 pulls it own, it really moves through the gears. Another
thing, I think most of us bought our Speedsters for highway cruising,
not drag racing. Now if you cruise at 55 mph, the T-1 is the engine.
If you cruise down Interstate 75 in FL at 75 mph when it's 90 degrees
outside, then the T-4 is the engine.

Robert, I know for you guys who have been around for a while, this argument is getting old. But, since I'm still trying to decide which engine to go with, it is still interesting for me. I don't know though why some of you take this issue so personal. To me its an individual choice and either has its pluses and negatives. In fact Robert, I thought your comments were right on point and you made them without offending anyone. It got me to thinking.

Goerge and Jake, keep your comments coming, but lay off the personal attacks. It makes both of you look real bad.

After weighing the two engine combo's it was the high speed touring ability of the T4 that won me over. I don't care about cruising or being seen, I want an engine with legs for weekends at the coast or road trips to the mountains. If I was interested in drag racing or brute acceleration or in having a cost effective HP package I would likely go for the T1. (BTW the T1 does weigh less than the T4 by about 27 pounds.) It seems to me if Vw engineered the T4 as a replacement for the T1 for certain applications, for example pushing their 4000 pound buses and vans for a hundred thousand plus miles, then a T4 engine won't break a sweat with a 1700 Speedster.

This debate is like comparing apples and oranges, both are tasty.

Also looking at the HP issue, for my two cents while it would be wonderful to have over 140 in my car but for me a more modest 120 to 140 is the best bang for the dollar. If you buy a 2.0 core engine from a junkyard, have it rebuilt as a 2056, add a better cam and dual carbs, you will be using basically stock Vw parts in a very reasonably priced package, 120-130 HP and it will have torque gallore and highway driving will not bother it. When you build larger T4 engines there are all sorts of internal clearance issues which make those engines more expensive, but you gain tons of HP.

If I were looking for a type 4 1800 to 2000 cc engne which block and years would make the best build and be compatible to a irs vw beetle tranny which heads and which valve seats ,lifter and so on.I will do the upright conversin on it with a tweek here and there,but I will not stray to far from proven mods.I do know the valve train is the weekest part of a type 4 ,but with care and the right parts that can be handled.. 120 hp sounds quite enought no need to be power hungry. Good smooth 65 to 70 crusein speeds will make me very happy . with healhty respectable take off that perks ears.

John, I drove my 1957 VW sedan flat out on Texas highways for three years, and my 1967 VW sunroof sedan with gas heater the same way for two years. Never had any engine problems with either car. I took the '67 from Dallas to Big Bend National Park in southwest Texas (can you spell HOT?) one summer flat out almost all the way and back.

Both are type 1 engines. I drove my type 1 engined IM to work this morning (65 miles) in Washington DC commuter traffic running 75 to 80 mph most of the way and the car was just beginning to hit her stride.

Drove her all last weekend running errands and stuff and quite badly blew away a couple of kiddie-boppers in Hondas and Acuras with wings and graphics (we seem to have a lot of these tomato-can mufflered rice burners around where I live).

I have to concur that while a Type 4 might be "cooler", it's really relative. A Type 1 is meant to run "warm" anyway... hence, why we "warm up" our engines to get the oil nice and loose and running? This weekend, I drove on the highway for a good distance... 65-70mph with a 2176 in 60 degree temperature and the oil was a good 190-200 degrees (my sender measures the oil on the way out before it hits the cooler). I opened it up in the hills on the way back (150kph or 97mph on the hilly straights for about 10 miles... don't tell the State Police) and it never got much above that.

For my part, I almost wish there wasn't a T4 engine; It seems that it just makes the choice more confusing and I feel like I'm going around in circles. Since it will be a future date that I will be making the decision, it may seem like a long while to ponder. I, like the rest of you who are wrestling with this question, don't want to make a bad choice. However, I am concerned to think that T1's don't "have legs." How can it be that here in the Southeast, which was once planted thick with these little air-cooled numbers, anyone would buy them if they couldn't run all day, probably flat out at highway speeds, in the heat of the Summer and they couldn't take it? Please, board members, help me out with this question.
Thanks
John H.

(Message Edited 11/25/2002 3:21:31 PM)

OK, guys, now we're getting somewhere. If I decide next July or August to take a drive to Chattannoga, Atlanta or maybe CLEVELAND, GA., and wind up on the side smoking (and I don't mean Marlboros) or picking up engine parts, I don't want it to be because it's a type 1, Mex crate or not. By the way, why would the Mexicans put up with inferior engines? I seem to remember it gets really hot there. The folks that are buying the VW beetles made there must expect value for their pesos too, right?

(Message Edited 11/25/2002 3:33:35 PM)

Guys:
If you want to go to a forum where people actually own my engines and are there to talk about them visit www.germanlook.com/Forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=29

thats my forum, a place to ask questions and have them answered by people who have bit the bullet and bought sokmething from us. I'm also adding a testimonials page on my site as well.

I get really tired of this argument, as I love TI engines as well, the difference is that I don't trust one to go on a 400 mile trip at 85-90 MPH theyy are not made for that. I do trust my 2056CC MassIVe TIV stuffed in the 912E for 400 mile trips every other weekend or so(atleast lately I have ) The engine has 6,500 miles on it so far and was installed in September. Averages 38MPG and has peaked at 42MPG making a strong 130 ponies on my dyno.

A TI engine is great for balls out cheap power...The main problem is that few people know TIV engines and the general concensus is that they are a bad design. The factory design was not effective,mjust like a stock 1600 D/P was....after a few simple mods unlocking power is no problem. come visit that new forum and see the way to build a 21st century engine, I call it "Aircooled Technology"!

PS the first whiner that shows up on my forum, gets the boot, no complaining there at all....no disputes and no arguments.

Now I have to respond. I tend to believe when building an oversize engine the closer to stock size the more reliable the machine will probably be. Therefore big Type 4s are probably less stressed than a comparable Type 1. But ...

My beetle has a stock rebuilt 1600. I drove this bug from Massachusetts to Huntington Beach Cali to live. I had the car filled. A year later after driving 90 mph all over Southern Cali, I returned to Massachusetts towing a Uhaul trailer. The only thing that went wrong to this beetle was the clutch in Cali and the front tranny mount when towing the uhaul. That engine is still solid 10 years later.

When oversizing engines, reliabilty and cost are the two deciding factors. How far from stock you go is going to effect reliability. Trust the type 1 they are solid when built right. I believe that if you want to go bigger than 2.0 liter it makes sense to go type 4.