It is obvious there are pros and cons to both types of engines... and that's the way it should be. Type 1 or 4? Pepsi or Coke? Ginger or Mary Anne? You get the idea... I am no "mechanical guru", but I went through the 6 month process of researching options, weighing pros and cons, making a choice, having an engine built and installed... and I am not trying to sell anything. Here are my 2 cents. If you want POWER... REAL POWER... go Type 1. The fatal flaw in achieving more power with the Type 4, as I understand it, is with the cylinder heads. It is telling that companies like Performance Technology (arguably the best in the business) won't even touch Type 4 heads. Yes, I am sure you conspiracy theorists out there can come up with a number of reasons why... but it is the truth. Go to www.racingheads.com and see for yourself. So, in the end, IF (note the BIG IF) new cylinder heads come out for the Type 4, it is going to be out of the garage of some "mad scientist" and they will never make it past that into production because the fact is MOST PEOPLE drive the Type 1. However, if you want something nearly as reliable as your family truckster with decent, but not awe inspiring, power that you just might take on a cross country trek, then a Type 4 could be for you.
Colton,
A couple of quick points.
Currently there are wonderful aftermarket T4 heads on the market. Remmelle makes 'em & John of aircooled.net sells them. They are da bomb and flow like mothers, the r-e-a-l deal.
Re the OEM heads, yes, there were some valve seat failures early on, though largely with the heavy weight Vw vans & buses -- a definite cause and effect link -- but rarely with the lighter 411, 412 or 914's. Also, with the modern valve seat material T4 seat failure is largely a thing of the past. I have read Jake post that he has never had a seat failure on one of his engines. There are a number of head shops that can add any performance enhancements you could want (or afford). The OEM 2.0 914 heads can have some issues but there are zillions of 1.7, 1.8 & 2.0 van/bus heads available about as cheap as 1600 heads.
A couple of quick points.
Currently there are wonderful aftermarket T4 heads on the market. Remmelle makes 'em & John of aircooled.net sells them. They are da bomb and flow like mothers, the r-e-a-l deal.
Re the OEM heads, yes, there were some valve seat failures early on, though largely with the heavy weight Vw vans & buses -- a definite cause and effect link -- but rarely with the lighter 411, 412 or 914's. Also, with the modern valve seat material T4 seat failure is largely a thing of the past. I have read Jake post that he has never had a seat failure on one of his engines. There are a number of head shops that can add any performance enhancements you could want (or afford). The OEM 2.0 914 heads can have some issues but there are zillions of 1.7, 1.8 & 2.0 van/bus heads available about as cheap as 1600 heads.
Barry,
For the best source of info re T4 engines go to shoptalkforums.com. Search the "archive" link under "type4rums." Enter "1911" (uses the OEM 1.7 crank & 94 mm cylinders bored out to 96 mm with new 96 mm pistons). A rev-happy engine. Also read up on the "2056" (2.0 crank with OEM 94 cylinders bored out to 96 mm plus new pistons). Both are low-stressed combos that make good HP for the buck. In the various posts everything is spelled out parts-wise.
Barry, I bought one of the "Bug Me" tapes re building the T4 longblock. It is three-hours long. Jake walks you through the entire build process. If you like I will loan you my copy tape and you can make up your mind if you want to undertake the job yourself.
For the best source of info re T4 engines go to shoptalkforums.com. Search the "archive" link under "type4rums." Enter "1911" (uses the OEM 1.7 crank & 94 mm cylinders bored out to 96 mm with new 96 mm pistons). A rev-happy engine. Also read up on the "2056" (2.0 crank with OEM 94 cylinders bored out to 96 mm plus new pistons). Both are low-stressed combos that make good HP for the buck. In the various posts everything is spelled out parts-wise.
Barry, I bought one of the "Bug Me" tapes re building the T4 longblock. It is three-hours long. Jake walks you through the entire build process. If you like I will loan you my copy tape and you can make up your mind if you want to undertake the job yourself.
Erik,
You are right about there being some after market heads, but not generating the kind of power some PT V-5's can... I do hear Jake and some of the other guys talk about working on some though, but that a new case needs to be manufactured first? And, you did mention a key word that comes up time and again with Type 4's... "expense". :-)
You are right about there being some after market heads, but not generating the kind of power some PT V-5's can... I do hear Jake and some of the other guys talk about working on some though, but that a new case needs to be manufactured first? And, you did mention a key word that comes up time and again with Type 4's... "expense". :-)
Ok, Colton, I went to Performance Tech site but didn't see anything about why they don't like type 4 heads.
With type 1s you are forced to go to aftermarket heads to get any hp. With a type 4 you just use a 2.0l 914 (Porsche) head which stock flows great. Slap in some bigger valves (48x40) add larger pistons, a cam, stroker cranka and you can nearly double your hp.
Most of the parts market is in bugs so thats why they need a aftermarket head due to the exhaust port layout. So the bugs can use HE's or cheaper header set up.
Oh yeah, I forgot about the bad type 4 heads, most type 4 motors power heavier cars than a bug. They haven't had the best maintanence either, ie "a going lean condition" which has contributed to the cracks and dropped valve seats.
Geoff
With type 1s you are forced to go to aftermarket heads to get any hp. With a type 4 you just use a 2.0l 914 (Porsche) head which stock flows great. Slap in some bigger valves (48x40) add larger pistons, a cam, stroker cranka and you can nearly double your hp.
Most of the parts market is in bugs so thats why they need a aftermarket head due to the exhaust port layout. So the bugs can use HE's or cheaper header set up.
Oh yeah, I forgot about the bad type 4 heads, most type 4 motors power heavier cars than a bug. They haven't had the best maintanence either, ie "a going lean condition" which has contributed to the cracks and dropped valve seats.
Geoff
Hey Geoff, I just meant you wouldn't find any there... :-) As for adjustments and such, I am sure that a STOCK Type 4 (a Porsche engine)has more "under the hood" than a STOCK Type 1 (a 50s era BUG engine) which is why you have to go after market. I guess my point in this debate (which as many of us know has been going on forever!) is that each individual has to look at their expectations, needs, wants, etc. To me, if you want all out performance and power and don't mind doing some routine maintenance yourself, go Type 1. You get a better and more powerful engine in regards to dollar-for-dollar value and there must be a reason those who depend on power (id est those who race... just ask my builder) use them as well. If you want something that is more in tune with your normal daily driver car, plan to take long trips in hot weather, don't mind the expense, etc... then a Type 4 could be for you.
Colton,
You aren't being fair when you imply that the T4 makes only sedan-like performance, or that stock T4 heads can't be worked for excellent performance. Not accurate on both points.
Your builder is one of the best in the country, no doubt about it. I would be proud to have an engine by him.
The focus of the racing you talk about is a quarter mile at a time. Would a five-thousand dollar T1 engine beat another car with the same priced T4 engine down a drag strip? I don't know but I reckon it would. But my next question is how would those two five-grand engines hold up on a road course at racing speeds for a 20 lap sprint race?
Other posters have talked about making cross country trips in the heat of summer, etc., but those were stock engines, a completely different ballgame there.
Anyway, neither engine is best and the important thing is either have the best builder you can find to do the work or do it yourself.
You aren't being fair when you imply that the T4 makes only sedan-like performance, or that stock T4 heads can't be worked for excellent performance. Not accurate on both points.
Your builder is one of the best in the country, no doubt about it. I would be proud to have an engine by him.
The focus of the racing you talk about is a quarter mile at a time. Would a five-thousand dollar T1 engine beat another car with the same priced T4 engine down a drag strip? I don't know but I reckon it would. But my next question is how would those two five-grand engines hold up on a road course at racing speeds for a 20 lap sprint race?
Other posters have talked about making cross country trips in the heat of summer, etc., but those were stock engines, a completely different ballgame there.
Anyway, neither engine is best and the important thing is either have the best builder you can find to do the work or do it yourself.
Erik, you memtioned that you had bought one of the "Bug Me" tapes re building the T4. Where did you get it? I think I'd like to get one, you guys have convinced me that I should seriously consider building a T4. I haven't talked to Jake yet but I'm thinking about one of his kits. Thank you to everybody for all of your helpful comments.
Erik, I hear what you are saying. But to get the kind of high performance power we are talking about out of a Type 4, wouldn't you agree that the price tag would be pretty hefty in comparison to a Type 1? I am not disagreeing that the Type 4 is a fine engine... I just think, again in my opinion, that everyone needs to weigh their individual needs and expectations. In doing that, I determined that a large displacement Type 1 met my needs perfectly and has since exceeded my expectations. I am not planning on turning laps week after week at Nurburgring, but I would like to hose the occasional Rice Boy or unsuspecting mullet-sporting Mustang driver from stoplight to stoplight. So, all I am is saying is everyone learn from my experience and the experience of others and do your homework so you can make a decision you will be happy with... because, in the end, you are making a substantial investment if you do it right. Also, don't forget that once you have a HIGH PERFORMANCE engine, it isn't "over" once the engine is installed... think about maintenance (cost, can you do it yourself, availability of skilled mechanics, etc), replacement parts (availability, cost), etc. I have to say this debate has gotten much more civil... yes, we can all JUST GET ALONG! :-)
Ron,
I noticed that Jake is discounting the tapes for $30.00 each. Otherwise there is always an ad in all the Vw magazines for the "Bug Me" tapes.
Ron, if Barry doesn't borrow my copy I would be happy to loan mine to you. I will warn you it is stickly a longblock build tape, not a sales pitch nor does it compare and contrast of T1 Vs T4. Three hours of wrenching but Jake lays it all out for you.
I noticed that Jake is discounting the tapes for $30.00 each. Otherwise there is always an ad in all the Vw magazines for the "Bug Me" tapes.
Ron, if Barry doesn't borrow my copy I would be happy to loan mine to you. I will warn you it is stickly a longblock build tape, not a sales pitch nor does it compare and contrast of T1 Vs T4. Three hours of wrenching but Jake lays it all out for you.
Colton,
I agree with everything you said, bro. If I were doing a 550 Spyder replica I would definitely have a T1 engine mainly for the brute force acceleration in such a light car. Wow. Having ridden motorcycles forever I don't mind roughing it so the way I envisioned my car is designed for sport-touring with weekend five-hundred mile road trips. If the Speedster is a little loud and not as comfortable as my weekday ride, so what?
See, "friends" who drive 911 and hot BMW's, etc., gave me crap when I bought a replica ("Erik, you can't polish a turd.") so I decided to make the car be all it can be with future plans for even more suspension and brake upgrades. The longer I looked at it the less important bragging HP numbers became to me and the more important the total package became for me. My goal is to square it away so those name dropping snobs eat crow.
I believe a guy can build or have built a 2056 with 130 HP for very reasonable jack.
I agree with everything you said, bro. If I were doing a 550 Spyder replica I would definitely have a T1 engine mainly for the brute force acceleration in such a light car. Wow. Having ridden motorcycles forever I don't mind roughing it so the way I envisioned my car is designed for sport-touring with weekend five-hundred mile road trips. If the Speedster is a little loud and not as comfortable as my weekday ride, so what?
See, "friends" who drive 911 and hot BMW's, etc., gave me crap when I bought a replica ("Erik, you can't polish a turd.") so I decided to make the car be all it can be with future plans for even more suspension and brake upgrades. The longer I looked at it the less important bragging HP numbers became to me and the more important the total package became for me. My goal is to square it away so those name dropping snobs eat crow.
I believe a guy can build or have built a 2056 with 130 HP for very reasonable jack.
I was talking with a engine builder in CA yesterday. He just
builds T-1 and T-4 long blocks. He builds a lot of engines for
guys who race Midgets. Guess what the engine of choice is for
these racers .. T-4's
Wonder why ??
builds T-1 and T-4 long blocks. He builds a lot of engines for
guys who race Midgets. Guess what the engine of choice is for
these racers .. T-4's
Wonder why ??
Erik, thanks for the offer, but I'll order a copy for myself. Thanks again for your help.
Erik, I kept quiet about my new engine with friends here locally... talk about being a thing to keep quiet about! But, it was worth it the other day when I was out and DUSTED one of my best and unsuspecting friends with a 5-6 year old 911 at a stoplight. :-)
Best in the business???
Hmmn, let me do a search and find the proof that they did a set of TIV heads for me earlier this year, and also let me dig up the points of interest that proved to me that they are lost!
Mr. Perry, I'll email it to you...do a search at the STF in the speed and drag racing forums if you want to hear some nice stories from atleast 5 different guys about them.
I have first hand experience, and a 2,000 dollar set of heads that took 6 months(job was promised in 3 weeks as I PAID them 300 bucks extra for it) and a friend to go pick them up even to get. My customer lost 2,000 bucks at one time due to their business conduct, these are facts, I have pictures and emails to prove it all.The heads are sitting under my bench in pieces, never to be used.
I once was doing business with them, they absolutely screwed me and did not think twice about it, they operate on a shoestring..They obviously can make HP, but what good is that if they never deliver.
Like I said, do some searching, find those who have bought from them and had the same problems I did.
Most souped up TI engines will dust a 911 down low, thats to be expected, ever see a 911 at the dragstrip? Lay with him at 90-100MPH for a few minutes and watch those temps start to rise, and feel the power diminish as he waves bye bye to ya.....They are 2 different cars, made for totally opposite things, just like a TI and a TIV engine...NO COMPARISON!
Hmmn, let me do a search and find the proof that they did a set of TIV heads for me earlier this year, and also let me dig up the points of interest that proved to me that they are lost!
Mr. Perry, I'll email it to you...do a search at the STF in the speed and drag racing forums if you want to hear some nice stories from atleast 5 different guys about them.
I have first hand experience, and a 2,000 dollar set of heads that took 6 months(job was promised in 3 weeks as I PAID them 300 bucks extra for it) and a friend to go pick them up even to get. My customer lost 2,000 bucks at one time due to their business conduct, these are facts, I have pictures and emails to prove it all.The heads are sitting under my bench in pieces, never to be used.
I once was doing business with them, they absolutely screwed me and did not think twice about it, they operate on a shoestring..They obviously can make HP, but what good is that if they never deliver.
Like I said, do some searching, find those who have bought from them and had the same problems I did.
Most souped up TI engines will dust a 911 down low, thats to be expected, ever see a 911 at the dragstrip? Lay with him at 90-100MPH for a few minutes and watch those temps start to rise, and feel the power diminish as he waves bye bye to ya.....They are 2 different cars, made for totally opposite things, just like a TI and a TIV engine...NO COMPARISON!
BTW, a TIV is not more expensive...I just sold a complete 911 cooled TI making 170BHP and a complete 911 cooled TIV, 2270 engine for the same cost, 6,500.oo complete.
To do teh TI right it will cost you the same as doing the TIV right. The power is totally different, however..
To do teh TI right it will cost you the same as doing the TIV right. The power is totally different, however..
Jake, I know PT is slow... believe me, I KNOW... my heads took 3-4 months with Kurt "stepping on Jim" personally... and Kurt is sponsired by them. But, I think you once told me "good thing take time" when it comes to building an good engine? ;-) And best in the business... I did say arguably. ;-) However, there product is highly regarded and does make a lot of power. $6500 for a complete 911 cooled Type 4? Hmm... I will have to check my records as well, but I think they is about what you wanted to charge me (maybe a little less) for a 2007 Type 1 with doghouse cooling that was almost, but not quite, turnkey. ;-) Boy, this debate sure was friendlier until Jake came back. ;-) hahahaha!!!
Oh, and I have no doubt my friend would KILL me over distance with top speed... six cylinders and six speeds? No contest! But, it was nice taking him from a stop like that. :-) If I wanted top end speed and luxury, I would have traded in my boat and bought a 911 myself.
Hmmn, I'd just drop a 3.2 into the speedster, ar a MassIVe TIV!!!LOL
Face it, unless you live in remote parts of Arizona, Nevada, Utah, Idaho, Oregon, Montana (you get the idea) nobody can go very fast and if they can it won't be for very far. Even Autobahn routes are fairly short (Germany is not that big).
For todays driving a top speed of 130 is more than adequate, and the ability to cruise all day at 75-80 is nice, even if that will get you a speeding ticket on the interstate in most states.
So, my performance shopping list includes a zero to 60 time and 1/4 mile time that can embarrass most (or almost all) imports and V8's, and handling that will challenge most sportscars in the twisties. I guess thats why I'm going to build a larger, higher output type 1 engine than I currently have.
Whatever trips your trigger...
For todays driving a top speed of 130 is more than adequate, and the ability to cruise all day at 75-80 is nice, even if that will get you a speeding ticket on the interstate in most states.
So, my performance shopping list includes a zero to 60 time and 1/4 mile time that can embarrass most (or almost all) imports and V8's, and handling that will challenge most sportscars in the twisties. I guess thats why I'm going to build a larger, higher output type 1 engine than I currently have.
Whatever trips your trigger...
Yeah....
I sold an engine last year to a guy who's wife is a midwife for the rich and famous, or something like that. He lives in Wyoming and needed an engine that would push a Ghia 120MPH 5 hours straight to get her to the airport for jobs or whatever..
I thought that he was absolutely full of it, till 3 months later he told me to watch the discovery channel. I'll be damned if his wife was not on theredoing her job, I guess it wasn't BS.....
I built him a 2270TIV with all the trimmings, have not heard a word out of him in almost a year, so it muct be doing okay!!! wild stuff.
I sold an engine last year to a guy who's wife is a midwife for the rich and famous, or something like that. He lives in Wyoming and needed an engine that would push a Ghia 120MPH 5 hours straight to get her to the airport for jobs or whatever..
I thought that he was absolutely full of it, till 3 months later he told me to watch the discovery channel. I'll be damned if his wife was not on theredoing her job, I guess it wasn't BS.....
I built him a 2270TIV with all the trimmings, have not heard a word out of him in almost a year, so it muct be doing okay!!! wild stuff.
Thanks Eric. I would like to borrow that tape It will help me if nothing else, get me more familar with the type 4 engine. I have built a few type ones. and with good results, But never over 1600 cc. always stock. I'd almost settle for a stock type 4 But the nickies, better heads and valve train are a must,I don wan.t anything under done/ A smaller engine built like the biggest,hopefuly would be super heavy duty, and almost indestrutable.
I also wonder If Jake has ever tryed longer rocker arm ratio's with slighty larger valves to help the camshaft life. Stuff like that can cause idle problems, but I was just curious.
As to just how much expermenting he has done . I know loves to blow Engines up for fun. to see what goes first. And he don't care which type.
(Message Edited 11/27/2002 10:33:11 AM)
I also wonder If Jake has ever tryed longer rocker arm ratio's with slighty larger valves to help the camshaft life. Stuff like that can cause idle problems, but I was just curious.
As to just how much expermenting he has done . I know loves to blow Engines up for fun. to see what goes first. And he don't care which type.
(Message Edited 11/27/2002 10:33:11 AM)
The problem with almost all ratio rockers is that they are not self oilers and the valve guides hurt in a street car, the valve die way faster than the cam..
We never have camshaft issues, all ours come from web cam and then are cryogenically enhanced along with the matching lifters...one bad cam in almost 350, and alot of these engines have 100K on them already...
We never have camshaft issues, all ours come from web cam and then are cryogenically enhanced along with the matching lifters...one bad cam in almost 350, and alot of these engines have 100K on them already...
Jake, do you send out the Web Cam parts to be cryo'd? Last time I talked with them on the phone they did not provide cryo'd parts and didn't really recommend it (although I think it's a good idea).
George, My cryo guy founda cycle that works with them very well, and has so far....
I reguards to thr rocker arm with differnt ratio's I think there was some misunderstanndings . First I ment to imply that the push rod end of the rockers would be longer to reduce lift and cam strain, then a larger valve would offset the change restoring the flow ratio lost to reduced lift.
Second ,can,t the rockers be drilled for oiler passages? If the factory did it then it should be possible.
Second ,can,t the rockers be drilled for oiler passages? If the factory did it then it should be possible.
The factory cared a hell of alot more about their engines than aftermarket parts suppliers do...thats why something that is near stock is better than something that only is based from a stock crankcase.....a perfect example is the rocker arms.
Physics 101 - if you increase the moment arm length (rocker arm ratio) the force on the other side (pushrod, lifter, cam lobe) from the valve spring is also increased. For instance, if your valve springs were 290 lbs. over the nose of the cam then stock VW 1.1 to 1 rocker arms would provide 319 lbs. while 1.4 to 1 ratio rocker arms would provide 406 lbs. Actually it's more involved than that with lobe acceleration rates, etc. So, parts materials and heat treating must be up to the increased loads, and lubrication is an issue, too. Lifter bores will also wear more rapidly (they can be sleeved with silicon-bronze to resist wear).
(Message Edited 12/2/2002 5:11:08 PM)
(Message Edited 12/2/2002 5:11:08 PM)
George is exactly right, adding ratio adds tension on other parts further down the chain of events in the valvetrain....
Personally I have found that there is no down side to using the type 1 over the type 4 case - after all, we've stuffed over 500HP in a type 1 without any issues. Of coarse we did use aftermarket parts to achieve such horsepower, but that brings up my next point - aftermarket parts are fine providing you use QUALITY parts made for the particular application. Junk parts (& yes there is some high $$$ junk out there ~ cost does not dictate quality) will produce poor results no matter which type of platform you choose. Type 1 or Type 4 shouldn't even be an issue - it's how you choose to build it that matters.
Hey, here are some shots of a T4 in a Bug...
It's not slow, has tons of torque, and absolutely baffeled a hard core T1 guy (he had a stroked and bored T1 in his Ghia).
type4power.dyndns.org/video.htm
Later,
Tom
(Message Edited 12/8/2002 11:25:30 PM)
It's not slow, has tons of torque, and absolutely baffeled a hard core T1 guy (he had a stroked and bored T1 in his Ghia).
type4power.dyndns.org/video.htm
Later,
Tom
(Message Edited 12/8/2002 11:25:30 PM)