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Anybody else have dropped spindles on upside down?

FM Former Member
The guys at At Speed Motorsports http://www.atspeedmotorsports.com/ report that the Hoopty's dropped spindles and calipers are on opposite sides and upside-down. That's not a shock to me; we did it on purpose, but how to fix the resulting handling characteristics are an odd problem indeed.
It seems Jim and I built this thing to go really, really fast in a straight line, but without considering the need for ... well ... braking and cornering.
When we put the car together, we hacked three inches off of each side of the front beam, and had to get rid of the old, beam-mounted steering box. The old box was replaced with the heavy-duty Baja rack we mounted to a plate on the centerline on the tunnel, forward of the Napoleon hat.
I totally understand the consequences of the brake calipers being upside down; there's no way to bleed them without removing them from the discs. The calipers mount only one way on the spindles, and if they have to be backward because of the box' placement, then it looks like that's that -- no way to 'fix' the caliper-bleeding problem.
Question is, and I probably know the answer, should I take them off and flip them back around to the correct sides and orientation (meaning I'd have to conjure up another steering answer)?
Is it possible to improve the handling by replacing the upside-down dropped spindles with upside-down stock spindles without needing to re-invent my tie-rods?
AUUUUGH! The remedies to the 'little bugs' are adding up, now that we've had a few years to experience them.
Second question, same issue. I don't remember where I sourced this box. Does anybody have a copy of HotVWs lying around that has this box pictured? If so, there are a couple other, lighter-duty options from the same company. I would love to have the company info, so I can call and ask for specific pieces. The actual piece that the tie-rods are attached to has GIANT teeth on it, and I'd like to see what my other options are.

Here's the current arrangement, minus the new shocks:

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FM Former Member
The guys at At Speed Motorsports http://www.atspeedmotorsports.com/ report that the Hoopty's dropped spindles and calipers are on opposite sides and upside-down. That's not a shock to me; we did it on purpose, but how to fix the resulting handling characteristics are an odd problem indeed.
It seems Jim and I built this thing to go really, really fast in a straight line, but without considering the need for ... well ... braking and cornering.
When we put the car together, we hacked three inches off of each side of the front beam, and had to get rid of the old, beam-mounted steering box. The old box was replaced with the heavy-duty Baja rack we mounted to a plate on the centerline on the tunnel, forward of the Napoleon hat.
I totally understand the consequences of the brake calipers being upside down; there's no way to bleed them without removing them from the discs. The calipers mount only one way on the spindles, and if they have to be backward because of the box' placement, then it looks like that's that -- no way to 'fix' the caliper-bleeding problem.
Question is, and I probably know the answer, should I take them off and flip them back around to the correct sides and orientation (meaning I'd have to conjure up another steering answer)?
Is it possible to improve the handling by replacing the upside-down dropped spindles with upside-down stock spindles without needing to re-invent my tie-rods?
AUUUUGH! The remedies to the 'little bugs' are adding up, now that we've had a few years to experience them.
Second question, same issue. I don't remember where I sourced this box. Does anybody have a copy of HotVWs lying around that has this box pictured? If so, there are a couple other, lighter-duty options from the same company. I would love to have the company info, so I can call and ask for specific pieces. The actual piece that the tie-rods are attached to has GIANT teeth on it, and I'd like to see what my other options are.

Here's the current arrangement, minus the new shocks:

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  • steering box 092406
S shuie
I'm sorry I can't really help with the first question, but I wanted to ask why you mounted the spindles upside down. Did it drop the car further? Provide more tire clearance? Or, was it so the tie rod ends would align with the R&P better? Or, something else? TIA

2nd question, here are the R&P sources I have from the hot VW's on my desk right now. FWIW, I've looked at the photos of your R&P dozens of times trying to work this mod out in my head, and I'm pretty sure these people all sell the same unit you have.

www.dansparts.com , 888-997-8808
www.latestrage.net , 619-445-7553
www.pacificcustoms.com , 951-738-8380
www.mooreparts.com , 714-666-6688

FM Former Member
Shuie, thanks for the parts info.
the placement of the tie-rods is exactly why the spindles are backward and up-side down. I wanted them to be as straight as possible, so steering wouldn't be difficult.
There's a little more muscle required at slow speeds, but very little effort steering at high speeds. The wheels turn stopper-to-stopper at one-half turn of the steering wheel, so minute adjustments are all that's needed at highway velocities. Unfortunately, there isn't a steering dampener anymore, so bumps will change your trajectory if you aren't holding the wheel firmly. It's not the best arrangement ever.
The placement of the fuel cell dictated how the steering ran before, but maybe that can change. The tank is essentilly a cube with outlets at the front, mounted so the front end is a little lower than the back.

Mango, I never compared the dropped spindles to these. The old ones came off and disappeared within a day or two to someone else's project car, and these showed up with the CB discs.
Honestly, at the time, I didn't know one spindle from another; I just remembered that they went on with the ears for the tie-rods facing the rear for our application. The plate for the steering box and the fab work to make it function was Jim's job that day, and I simply assembled pieces where they fit.
That was pretty much the beginning point of my learning curve. If I knew then what I know now ...
Do you think there'd be much of a height difference? The back of the car sits almost two inches higher than the front, but it's still only six or so inches off the ground.
Also, regarding the speedo cable, there isn't one. The only gauges in the car are the tach and fuel gauge on the dash, and an oil-temperature gauge between the seats (I use the rear-view to see it).

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  • Classic Hoopty
  • 070309 new mirror
  • 031307 temp gauge
J justinh
Running your spindles upside down does terrible things to your SAI (steering axis inclination, or KPI king pin inclination depending). This results in a large scrub radius. The larger the scrub radius the larger the forces (road bumps and braking) acting to change your steering direction. You'll have a lot of bad feedback through your steering wheel over bumps and it will be hard to keep straight when braking.

Using inverted stock spindles will not help other than to lower your front end another few inches.

You also can't use the spindles right-side up but swapped side to side without a huge amount of extra caster because of the built-in trail of the spindles. That would just cause a lot of other problems.

Options: relocate steering box to normal position, fit some really high offset wheels and widen the beam (probably not possible with the narrow width wheels you're dealing with), find a different donor spindle and suspension (just a different spindle probably won't work with the torsion beam or cause other handling issues, might as well go full a-arm), or make your own spindles.
FM Former Member
Cory, the problem with the brakes is easy. Put the caliper on the other side. To do that, you turn them from upside down to right-side up and your bleeder is in the correct position.

You can also drill and tap brake calipers to put the bleeder on the otherside.

That all said, I would take the well written advice above to heart. What has been done here has compromised a series of things in the interest of a convenient mount for the rack. Make the rack mount inconvenient and lose the other compromises. Remember that if you are changing the input side to the spindle (tie-rod) from ahead of the axle to behind the axle which is typical on a flipped spindle, then you must also flip the steering rack.

If you don't, the car will steer opposite of the steering input. Go ahead, ask Steve how we know this one...

angela
Gordon NicholsGordon NicholsMassachusetts 1993 CMC Supporting Member
Was all this screwing around with steering geometry done to overcome interference with the fuel cell?

Is that why you (Jim, really) moved to the off-road R&P unit (along with relocating the tie rods)? I'm wondering because a stock Bendix-style steering box would put the tie rods in about the same place, so....WTF? You'd also have MUCHO easier steering, like 1-1/2 turns lock-to-lock, rather than 1/2 turn. I gotta tell ya, driving that thing with steering that quick is a hair above scary, believe me. I'm too old for that much concentration, anymore.

OBTW: That R&P looks like one from Larry's Off-road (quick-turn, lock-to-lock). Chenowith sold one like that, too....mostly for sand rails.

gn
J justinh
David, you might be right. Looking through his pictures, there is one listed as "100706 overview III" that clearly shows the spindles installed in the correct orientation. But that is from 3 years ago and he did say he knowingly installed them upside down.

To be clear, the correct orientation for a vw spindle is the steering arm on top and pointed towards the back of the car. Also if you have the wheels pointed straight, the top balljoint should be closer to the centerline of the car than the bottom balljoint.
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