I was wondering if anyone here has had experience upgrading the stock brake system on their Beck or Vintage Spyders?
I was looking at something like this:
https://www.coolrydes.com/stor...ON_KIT_5_ON_205.html
Thoughts?
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I have always liked the look of the Coolstop brakes- with the lightweight aluminum hubs, vented rotors and bigger aluminum calipers (you know, I'm starting to realize I really love things made out of that alumynumm stuff!) I can't imagine EVER being able to out drive them in a Spyder OR Speedster. I'm not sure if there's a any specific reason (other than price- I believe they are the most expensive VW brakes out there) more Speedster and Spyder people don't use them.
EDIT- Ok, if you're going 5x205 it's finally dawned on me why Coolstop might not be your first choice- other than that, it looks like a toss up with the Airkeweld stuff. It's not like one is significantly cheaper than the other, and I can't really see EVER heat sinking those vented rotors, whereas I know someone who has overpowered his Karmann Ghia/914 brakes in a Beetle. Mind you, he did have it loaded down with 800 lbs or so of stuff, came over a rise and immediately had to come to a stop on a Mexican highway...
I went with brakes from Airkewld.com. Thanks again, Pete!
https://www.airkewld.com/?utm_...TEAAYASAAEgLo5_D_BwE
The biggest decision you'll need to make is bolt/wheel lug pattern. Airkewld used to do 5 lug patterns only, but has recently added 4 x 130mm. They do wide5(205mm), 5 x 130mm(Porsche 911), and Chevy(5 x 4.75"), and finally Ford(5 x 4.5").
The biggest problem on a Spyder is in front. There isn't much room. ALL front wide5 kits for ball joint beams add width, usually 3/4" or 7/8" PER SIDE. I had Vintage Motorcars weld in a 2" narrowed beam in my new(2016) car and really couldn't be happier. If you want wide5 on a stock width beam, the other alternative is moving your wheel centers to give more backspace. I had modified a set of 4.5" steelies to have 3/4" more backspace, which worked with a standard width beam on my first Spyder.
I ended up with drilled solid rotors on all 4 corners. Wilwood 4 piston calipers in front with street/track day pads. On the rear is the heavy iron single piston caliper similar to OE Rabbit, but with the mechanical e-brake lever. Stock pads in the back. Master cylinder is 20.7mm(I think??), which is necessary on 4 wheel disc conversions.
How do they work? Superb. Any street use is covered with these brakes. Never a problem on any roads, Back of the Dragon, The Rattler, Carlos' Deliverance Run, etc.
On track they work really well also. All day 30 minute sessions, no trouble bringing the speed from 120mph to 60 into Big Bend at Lime Rock. Zero fade, zero drama.
I've had these brakes for 10-12 years, and wouldn't trade them. I've only had to replace the front pads so far.
I have not had the opportunity to use Kevin's brakes (Cool Rydes) but that has simply been client choice due to aesthetics, because there is no way to hide the inner PCD of the hat with a drum skin, so you'd have the 5 exposed lugs in the open center of your wide five wheels.
As Danny said, just keep in mind that whatever change you make in track width due to brake choice, you have to counteract with front beam and/or custom offset wheels. There are, of course, other small nuances to deal with and those vary largely with year of build and placement of components, but they are all relatively simple like moving the horns so they don't touch the inside of the tire, or resetting steering stops to accommodate the change in offset and steering radius.
Thanks for the info. Danny, the Airkewld kits look good too. I have a Vintage Spyder, with Vintage 190 5×205 wheels. I think 5.5 upfront and 4.5 in rears.
To confirm, the Airkewld 4 piston kits won't be a straight bolt on then if its a stock width beam? I would have to have some modifications such as wheels backspacing, or weld in a 2" narrowed beam?
I used front and back kits from these guys:
https://socalautoparts.com/pro...ry/brake-kits-front/
I received really good support from them. I have drum skins on too....no fitment issues. The brakes work great.
SpyderMike, thanks for sharing those. How did you feel the braking performance improved? Was it worth it?
I really like the improvement. Predictable, consistent and strong braking. I think it was worth it. Mine is an early Beck kit built car that I put together around 1990.
The linked brake kit is what most of us are using currently, made by AC Industries (SoCal is their retail outlet). Its uses the smaller brake pads from the 4 lug and 5x130 kit, which is different from what used to be used on wide five kits. The previous kit is still shown as being backordered, so not sure if this is a permanent switch or a result of the bad batch of rotors that landed a few months ago. The previous AC kit is what EMPI knocked off. As mentioned, they had a little more pad to rotor surface, but they lacked a good anti-rattle clip so there is some give and take either way since these pads have the built in tension spring to act as a rattle clip. Only other difference is these have 5mm more offset/trackwidth than the previous version.
I need to go back to my notes about brake pads and see what I have for this "new" kit, but one of the major things we did with all of the old kits was pitch the China brake pads and use Hawk pads on the fronts and Bosch on the rear.
I wouldn't;t consider any of these 3 kits (new AC, old AC, EMPI) as an upgrade, but only because that is the standard that I think we all use these days. It would be an upgrade for an older car, so I guess it just depends what you have and then what you intend to do. Now... the Wilwoods (Airkewld) or the CSP and likely the Cool Stops would all be an upgrade to the AC/EMPIs. BUT now you have to look at tire size as well. You can over brake a skinny (155/165) front and just lock up quicker. I believe that @DannyP runs 185s in a super sticky compound on the front of his car?
@SpyderMike posted:I used front and back kits from these guys:
https://socalautoparts.com/pro...ry/brake-kits-front/
I received really good support from them. I have drum skins on too....no fitment issues. The brakes work great.
If you ever get a chance, could you weigh 1 front and 1 rear hub/rotor assembly? I'm interested in what they weigh. Thanks in advance. Al
ALB, I won't be taking the parts off for a long time, if ever (hopefully).
I recall my research finding these front brake calipers were Rabbit and the rears are of Volvo origin...
Oh, and I do feel they are an upgrade from stock beetle drum brakes, which is what I initially had installed back in the day.
@ALB posted:If you ever get a chance, could you weigh 1 front and 1 rear hub/rotor assembly? I'm interested in what they weigh. Thanks in advance. Al
The rears weight 23lbs. This is why people refer to them as barbells.
I went for the CB brakes, they use a steel hub with an aluminum hat, like the CoolRydes and Airkewld. The CB weigh just under 17lbs. Huge difference in unsprung weight.
I weighed all the parts separately, so if you are interested, see this thread.
Yikes!
@LI-Rick, @chines1, @SpyderMike- Thanks guys, and yeah, I already knew they were heavy- someone had 1 that I'd picked up before.
A few years ago when Kevin Zagar was on here fairly regularly I asked him how much lighter his Coolstop 5x130mm front brakes were than Karmann Ghia rotor/caliper assemblies- iIrc he said 5lbs/side. CB Perf. makes aluminum 5x130 mm patterned hubs with solid rotors (4182l, 4182r) which have to be significantly lighter than even KG assemblies but an email asking about them couldn't convince Dave to get out of his chair and do more than answer an email. You'd think that with something like that they'd already know (it would be the selling point, wouldn't it?)
@ALB posted:CB Perf. makes aluminum 5x130 mm patterned hubs with solid rotors (4182l, 4182r) which have to be significantly lighter than even KG assemblies but an email asking about them couldn't convince Dave to get out of his chair and do more than answer an email.
I have them and I weighed them. The rear hub and rotors weigh 17 lbs 1.2 oz, and the fronts weigh 13 lbs 10.2 oz. I reused the rear calipers and brackets from my old CBP wide-5 kit and got adapter caliper brackets from Lanner Khan (vdubengineering.com) to use Wilwood DynaLites on the front.
It's the shizzle.
I did not weigh the brackets and calipers because they do not rotate. I understand they are unsprung weight, but in order of importance: rotating mass is far and away the most important, followed by unsprung, followed by Mr. Fatty-Pants sitting in the left seat.
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Stan. You are really wasting a lot of brain ATP for the wrong reasons. Focus on world peace or nuclear fusion. When you win a Nobel prize you can place a footmark for SOC.
@550 Phil posted:Stan. You are really wasting a lot of brain ATP for the wrong reasons.
That's adenosine triphosphate in case you lost the thread. That's funny, Phil.
@Michael Pickett posted:That's adenosine triphosphate in case you lost the thread.
"Brain fuel" if you happen to be a high-school educated pipefitter who had to look it up on the interwebs.
As far as the rest, I'm just an ape with tools. The real brain trust is the machinists over on TheSamba, although hanging out there will make you quickly realize that world peace is a long way off.
My middle grandson is now attending a regional vocational school (his first year there) and this month they're focusing on plumbing as they explore the different trades. He loves it! And now he appreciates all the precise plumbing work done on those big rockets he has seen at Cape Canaveral and Huntsville, Alabama, and how good the people were who built them.
@Gordon Nichols posted:My middle grandson is now attending a regional vocational school (his first year there) and this month they're focusing on plumbing as they explore the different trades. He loves it! And now he appreciates all the precise plumbing work done on those big rockets he has seen at Cape Canaveral and Huntsville, Alabama, and how good the people were who built them.
Good for him, Gordon. We need more good tradespeople, but unfortunately, a career in trades is sadly looked down upon.
If he perseveres in this line, he'll have a solid career and a good living.
All great information up here!
I agree with Mark, that 4 wheel disc is an upgrade from drums, simply for fade resistance and zero adjustment factor.
Yes, I run a 185/65HR15 Vredestein Sportrac5 on the front, which has a 300 treadwear rating. I can lock them up, but it's rare and I have to be really hauling the mail into a corner to make that happen. Otherwise, they just bleed speed really well with great modulation.
The only thing I'll add is that the Airkewld rear hub is one piece and aluminum. A steel 1/4" spacer goes between the hub and the wheel/axle bearing. Outside I use a thin spacer so I don't gall the aluminum. I believe they are made of some really hard aluminum. Mine haven't worn at all, but I torque to almost 300 ft. lbs. so there isn't any movement.
Danny's right- any time you're putting more stress or power to the rear wheels it's wise to up the axle nut torque if you want the hub splines to survive. My off-road dune buggy friends use 300 ft. lbs. as the go to number as well- it's what's required to keep everything together. And I'm guessing those Airkeweld rear hubs are made of 6061- it's pretty tough stuff. Are the spacers under the axle nuts steel or aluminum (guessing they're steel)?
@Gordon Nichols posted:My middle grandson is now attending a regional vocational school (his first year there) and this month they're focusing on plumbing as they explore the different trades. He loves it! And now he appreciates all the precise plumbing work done on those big rockets he has seen at Cape Canaveral and Huntsville, Alabama, and how good the people were who built them.
I found this picture on the internet a while back and sent it to my guys. I was trying to be funny and said, “No pressure guys, but this is how I’d like our work to look”.
10 10 seconds later, Right-Hand-Man Brad shoots back a text that said, “No problem, boss. We’ll leave all the covers off too!” I love that guy. To give you a window into my deranged mind, it bugs me that there are 8 conduits coming in from the left and only 7 on the right. It messes up the symmetry and looks lopsided.
As I’ve been hinting at for 2 years, I’m still remodeling the 1873 house across the street in my spare time. I’m cutting the house into two apartments (up and down), heating with mini-splits, and I’ve got electric heat that automatically comes on when the outside temperature drops below a certain set point (likely 0°- 10°F, but TBD), which is a trick. We’ve got a solar array on the shop roof in back to try to offset the cost of operation. As such, there are 4 electrical panels in the house and one in the shop, along with a lot of switchgear.
I have one more panel to wire, but these are typical:
... which is why this project has become my life's work.
Don't worry, I straightened out the commons on the right side of the panel so they look more like the ones on the left.
Nobody will ever see this stuff, but I'll know it's there. I tell my guys at least 15 times a week, "Please make it look like somebody loved it".
Your grandson will never be able to look at anything the same way again, Gordon. Once you start seeing nice work, you see it everywhere... and you see it when it isn't there. He's wrecked now, and will be doomed to a future of living in nice houses and making a good living, but having pinheaded baristas with advanced degrees think they're smarter than he is for the rest of his life.
He won't care.
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To Stan's point but from another Stan:
Stan Ostergaard was a guy sort-of in my neighborhood out in the Farm District when I was a pre-teen. He had been a machinist in the Army during WW II but became a boiler engineer once out of the Service. He had a very well equipped machinist's shop in his basement and would let me do stuff in there, with proper supervision.
One of the very first things he taught me was:
"Whatever you do or build, always make it look like somebody cared. "
That's stuck with me ever since and my kids (and their kids) do the same.
@Stan Galat posted:I found this picture on the internet a while back and sent it to my guys. I was trying to be funny and said, “No pressure guys, but this is how I’d like our work to look”.
10 seconds later, Right-Hand-Man Brad shoots back a text that said, “No problem, boss. We’ll leave all the covers off too!” I love that guy. To give you a window into my deranged mind, it bugs me that there are 8 conduits coming in from the left and only 7 on the right. It messes up the symmetry and looks lopsided.
I have one more panel to wire, but these are typical:
... which is why this project has become my life's work.
Don't worry, I straightened out the commons on the right side of the panel so they look more like the ones on the left.
Nobody will ever see this stuff, but I'll know it's there. I tell my guys at least 15 times a week, "Please make it look like somebody the rest of his life.
I think a lot of us suffer from the same condition, Stan. You look at something that's not quite right and it worries you like a loose tooth. Nice panel work, though.
Brakes...
@ALB posted:Danny's right- any time you're putting more stress or power to the rear wheels it's wise to up the axle nut torque if you want the hub splines to survive. My off-road dune buggy friends use 300 ft. lbs. as the go to number as well- it's what's required to keep everything together. And I'm guessing those Airkeweld rear hubs are made of 6061- it's pretty tough stuff. Are the spacers under the axle nuts steel or aluminum (guessing they're steel)?
They're steel.
@ALB posted:Danny's right- any time you're putting more stress or power to the rear wheels it's wise to up the axle nut torque if you want the hub splines to survive. My off-road dune buggy friends use 300 ft. lbs. as the go to number as well- it's what's required to keep everything together. And I'm guessing those Airkeweld rear hubs are made of 6061- it's pretty tough stuff. Are the spacers under the axle nuts steel or aluminum (guessing they're steel)?
I don’t know what alloy Airkewld uses, but I would rather it was made from 7075. 7075 is 30% more expensive than 6061 though. CBP uses 6061, but their hub is steel.
Uh, count those pipes again, @Stan Galat. I keep getting 16.
@edsnova posted:Uh, count those pipes again, @Stan Galat. I keep getting 16.
In addition to having a mental disorder, I'm also apparently an idiot who cannot count.
I guess cancer is going to have to cure itself, @550 Phil
@Stan Galat- Ok, Dude, that conduit pic is amazing! I tend to think that way as well, whereas my eldest, while he is well on his way to becoming an excellent welder, can be a little lazy (he's a student of Mediocrates- it's good enough!) and sometimes it shows in his personal stuff.
@LI-Rick wrote- "I don’t know what alloy Airkewld uses, but I would rather it was made from 7075. 7075 is 30% more expensive than 6061 though. CBP uses 6061, but their hub is steel."
I never thought of that, Rick, but you are right- 7075 would be even better.
@Michael Pickett posted:I think a lot of us suffer from the same condition, Stan. You look at something that's not quite right and it worries you like a loose tooth. Nice panel work, though.
At Mandalay Bay, I got to work with a company called Specialized Audio-Visual, Inc (SAVI) when we turned the theater over from Mamma Mia to The Lion King, then again when we installed a Lexicon LARC system for Lion King.
Their work was immaculate. The amp room consisted of 8x6’ tall racks and every wire in them was labeled and dressed like Stan’s electrical box. Probably 500-750 connections, total.
Hey guys, wanted to steer this back to the Brake's Convo. I asked Airkewld about the E-Brake kit and was told:
"Because you asked for Wilwoods specifically, they do not come with eBrakes in the rear and they will not work with what you have. If we go with a non-Wilwood caliper, we can go with eBrakes."
How do our E-brakes work on the Vintage 550's? Do I really lose my E-brake if I go with rear wilwoods? Is there a work around?
Wilwood does not make a caliper with a cable e-brake. So yeah.
The 4 piston Wilwood front caliper combined with the iron 1-piston e-brake caliper works JUST FINE under all street and track conditions I've encountered.
80-90% of your brakes are front anyway, you'll be hard-pressed to overheat the rears.
Gotcha. OK, thanks for the input
If you are stuck on using Wilwood calipers, you can use them, but you'll use 2 per wheel. You can use whichever for service brakes(1 or 2 piston is TOTALLY fine) but additionally you'll need a mechanical e-brake(Wilwood makes them). You'll also need a custom caliper bracket welded up to accommodate both.
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