Anyone running a 1600cc in here?

I've seen a lot of guys in here running big motors, is there anyone running a 1600cc motor? Mild mods, if so what have you done in regards to bolt ons and mild mods?

- G

You'll hear from everyone eventually on this one, I'll chime in first . . . . I guess.

IMO the best bang for the buck, without opening anything up is:

A set of Kadrons, drilled for a timed vacuum port.
A Bosch single vacuum advance distributor with lighter springs.
A Pertronix II ignition kit.
A good extractor, one with a merged collector works best.

All of the above, in concert, will make a nice difference that you'll feel in all rev ranges.

If you're feeling a little WILD, add a set of ratio rockers and a breather box. You just may decide that you don't want to swap out for a larger displacement engine after all of these modifications. The difference will be THAT pronounced.

OF COURSE, you need to start will a good engine, goes without saying . . . but it always seems to need to be mentioned. Compression and pressure should be almost above spec, leaks at a minimum, mileage as low as possible, etc. or the mods will just hasten the eventual demise.

After all of this, the displacement, heads and cam battle begins . . . .

Luck,

TC

TC is correct about the coming advice.....

As stroker McGurk would say...(even at 1600cc)...

"SPEED COST MONEY. HOW FAST CAN YOU AFFORD TO GO."

Decide what you want from your vehicle, then proceed.

Good Luck...

Leon C.

Hey TC

Which Pertronix II ignition kit? The one that replaces the Points or the one that Replaces the Distributor?

todd, the pertronix ignitor II is the same as the I, but it has a few fancy features but basically does the same thing, the II has a saftey ignition on shut off, increases timing on start up, and a few other things. They just are a electronic points replacement, not electronic ignition, but they do work very well, and most importantly they elliminate those pesky points, and they never go out of adjustment. I've been running pertronix in my car and my speedy, no issues, starts eaiser, and timing is allways dead on.

As for the 1600 question, the above advice is dead on, typically jetting the carb from a 127.5 main jet to a 130, 009(if you can't aford the SVDA), nice set of wires, and exhaust make a 1600 wake up a bit, the ratio rockers do a bit more. It all depends on your driving style, if you wanna go fast, then build a big engine. I have a 1600 in my beetle, actually alot more heavy than a speedster, and i'm perfectly happy with it, it's just my putt-putt car, where driving it is a joy, and taking the long way is fun!!! The one thing about the 1600 is they run forever in stock form, properlly maintained can give you alot of service, espically if you keep the compression stock. I've got over 120000mi on my 1600 (that i know about!!!!) and it's just starting to get tired, but still runs like a swiss watch!!! When you start building bigger engines, with more "stuff" on them like full-flow, dual carbs, cam, higher compression, ect....you decrease the realibility aspect alot, and generally a performance vw engine greater than a 1835cc will typically only last 50000mi if your lucky without a top-end rebuild; unless you spend large $$$ on the build, even then there's twice the chance of stuff going wrong. If your not looking for huge power, and pure realibility, the 1600 is for you, need power? build something big!!! A good compromise without building a very expensive engine is a 1776/1835CC, they are a much better upgrade and give very good power, not sacrificing the realibility aspect too much and a much more worthwile upgrade rather than building a 1600 for more power, not to mention a much less expensive engine that does not require the high dollar parts, and works on stock exhaust, oil system, ect....

martin

Martin, You wrote:

"When you start building bigger engines, with more "stuff" on them like full-flow, dual carbs, cam, higher compression, ect....you decrease the realibility aspect "

A Full Flow oil system modification actually increases reliability by allowing the oil to be filtered prior to entering the oil galley and bearings.

Larry - that's true, i agree 100%, but what i ment is that there are more accessories, hoses, fittings, all that leads to more potential for stuff to go wrong. Granted full flow is needed for larger engine displacments, not really needed for stock engines. Also larger engines also benifit from external coolers, ect.....again allowing for more to go wrong, you know murphy's law don't you?!!! haha

martin

Gary,
I have a good ol fashion 1600cc Type I with dual Solex carbs and a Tri Mill exhaust. I just got back from my mechanics and he's getting ready to put the engine back in, it's just been rebuilt with new crank, heads, pistons, exhaust and many other little tidbits, all stock stuff. So I'll let you know in the next few days or so, once I get it back, how it performs. All last year I ran the car with the old stock 1600cc, same carbs but a different exhaust, and it ran OK but I always felt it was a little "weak". The way I am when it comes to power is, if it's there I'll use it, and that's not always a good, or safe, thing for me. I just want a little "putter" that gets my car around the block. I drove Cory

Mickey - welcome to the club for overachieving underdogs! You get that rare opportunity to experience your car at ten-tenths on normal roads and nobody will complain about your aggressive driving! Don't take me wrong, take this as a compliment. You can explore the boundaries of "conservation of momentum" when passing. And maintaining RPM always in the power band becomes a fine art, worthy of olympian gold, with all the attendant satisfaction other lesser drivers will never experience. You are part of that great commarardierre(sp?) of drivers including, Fiats, original Minis, Bugeye Sprites, MG Midgets, Honda 600s and early Rambler Americans (although in truth, most Rambler owners thought ten-tenths driving was when the odometer kicked over another mile). These are joys unknown to the horsepower mongers and their fuel burning monster motors. Forget them, and enjoy your unique trip to their detriment.

I was told this a long long time ago. So i not sure the numbers are correct . but for every 10 hp you add,, you raise the head temp 15 degrees. Does that sound right

Mine is a stock 1600cc single 31 pict carb with a Ghia type remote oil bath coverted to a dry pack filter protronics and a 95 alt, and the car is Automatic.

Uh, thanks? I'm not sure how to take your compliment? You have 2367cc Type IV so I'm confused about your admiration towards those driving dinky 1600cc-ers? Did you just call me a sissy? LOL

Mickey,

He is saying it's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow. I do it all the time.

Thanks for the replies guys. A lot of info to take in, but I guessed as much. Seeing that the speedster that I have only weighs 730kg's the 1600cc that I have in it at the moment, more than pushes the car along at the legal speeds anyway.

I have to admit that I never wanted a hardcore fast car, just one to cruise suits me just fine in fact I have kept VW beetle drums all the way around. Hence me looking at the stock route. And the fact that the motor runs well being rebuilt completly about 2 years ago, is making me favour the stock route more.

My wish list consisted already of upgrading to twin carbs, electronic ignition and a decent exhaust system. Would a set of 36DRLA's that have been jetted for a 1600cc be overkill? Internally, I'd like to leave the motor stock as it runs like a dream already. I doubt that I'd go bigger than this.

36 DRLA's are great carbs for a stock 1600cc.

Coming back from the beach last spring I cruised at 80 mph most of the way home, on the fast part of I-40 speed limit 70. Even though its automatic ,it still got 28 mpg. As long as you let it turn up some in the shifts Its still pretty quick for a dinky little 1600cc.

SO EXUSE ME! mines a touring car not a HotRod I have T-4 in the shop But I beleive its going my Veepster its not very Areodynamic

Mickey - I grew up with a 1962, 3 speed, 80 Hp Corvair 500 (the bottom of the line). Finances dictated the acquistion. This was in the era of early factory muscle cars like 396 /427 Chevys and Corvettes, and similar stuff from Ford and Chrysler. So I am well acquainted with "driving the slow car fast" (well said!). My lessons came from reading road tests of early European sports cars, which had many of the same characteristics when exposed to American iron and our road conditions. What those experiences taught me was the "grand touring tradition" of smooth, controlled driving, thinking ahead, planned passing, minimal trip interuption, and never causing your passneger any concern. It's mental! Sure a new 500 Hp corvette is fun, but when you gonna use it, and for how long? I think you are enjoying it more!

David,
I knew where you coming from, I was just being a smart ass. I do enjoy my little 1600cc-er. I love power as much as the next guy but I'm more for "balance" in cars. Something little and fragile like a "stock" VW pan Speedster is limited because of it's origin, sure you can alway improve it, but I think there is a point of diminishing returns. If I were ever to set my sites on a "beast" I would build something like Cory (Outlaw) or the 904 (the original was a race car for the street) Angela and Steve are getting ready to do. I don't believe you should have an engine that either yout brakes or chassis can't handle at it's max power, but that's just me. I'll just drive my little pee-shooter at "10 tenths or as fast as a slow car can go". Thanks

I have a 1600cc stock, except for dual carbs. It is a great engine, low maintenance & plenty of power for me. If I was going to buy another replica, I'd more than likely get a 1600cc.

A lot of the early cars only had 1100 cc engines and only 1500 cc around 57, still quite mousey.

If you had a Carrera 4 cammer. Then your in our range. Going real big is just a personal prefence.

If that's what you want , Fine!

You're right about that Barry, but being Porsches maybe the gearing and some other things were tweaked different from comparable VW's of the era and the performance was noticeably improved. Even with smaller displacement engines those things WENT!!...

I kept this post from George Brown as it hits the nail on the head.

Spend the money on getting your ports cleaned up and go
with the stock valves. You'll probably also want to use single
coil performance springs as insurance. I would also suggest
increasing the compression ratio slightly, say to 8.0 to 1. Have
crank/flywheel/pressure plate balanced as a unit, and balance rods and
piston assemblies. Use new lifters and make sure they're properly
radiused and hardened.

Lightening the flywheel would also be nice, but on smaller engines
this may not be worth the effort.

Add a decent 1 1/2" merged exhaust system, Petronix (or Compufire)
magnetic trigger to the distributor, use a Bosch "blue" coil, jet the
carbs properly, and you should be good to go.

I see only one tweek I have 3 slightey used 1.5 ohm blue coils on the shelf. Want one?

Protronic's work better with a 3 ohm resistance coil . I upgraded both my cars with a PAW H/O substitute. If they offer a blue one I didn't find it.

But It bites. I agree with everything you suggested, but that.

Early memories of the "litle car - big car" battles:
Watkins Glen race, circa 1960. Bob Holbart (speedster), Paul O'Shea (Mercedes gullwing) and Dick Thompson (Corvette). Nose to tail for 50 laps. Nobody could pass nobody. They lapped the rest of the field. 4 cyl versus 8 cyl, it left a huge impression on my then young mind.

Thats pretty Cool, David and it says a lot about the gearing of the 356, but, are you sure it wasn't a 4 cammer.

Barry,
4-cammer? Maybe, maybe not, 48 years later who knows? But a solid axle Corvette with drum brakes was also an evil handling device (I owned a '62). I don't even remember who won, but nobody passed nobody. The old "rubber band syndorme". Fast on the straights, slow in the corners, versus slow on the straights, fast in the corners. Good memories.

Oh you'd remmeber the gear wine of a 4 cam , that's kinda hard to forget.

Have you ever heard a chevy 350 with a gear to gear cam drive? Thats a very simular sound you can't miss it.

Barry,

Spoken like a true old farht...sometimes I think Porsche lost it's way with the 911. I had a 911 and a 912 and the 912 was more fun. I also did not have to worry about a timing chain slipping and taking out the valves

Bill

David,

If it will make you feel any better I don't remember either. Same story at Upper marlboro (outside DC) Bathtubs vs Sunbeam Tigers vs Bob Tullis' Triumph.

Simplier times or maybe I was simplier.

I went dual 34s and super ported single port heads on my daily driver. Yeah, I have heard it all in 28 years of aircooled driving. First performance motor was in 78. A 1500, super dual-ported heads, single quiet pack and Holley bug spray. Nothing like a 2110 built right, but a mismatched 2110 would not have been an embarrasment. I also have a 1914 with dual 44s and $800 heads.

Jack, That 914 must fly...big bore kit also?

Yes, it's the 94s. But I turned the jugs to be slipins so it could be a little higher compression and not pull a case stud. Just me. heads, carbs and compression. Kinda old school.

Recardo ,your right about the gearing. I've heard it was set up better for speed not econmy.

I've been asked to help a friend. tool up to start rebuilding the old 4 speeds. This would be a good opertunity for me. to learn some new tricks and maybe figure out if I can duplicate the early gearing of a 356.

I don't know , but I will look into it, with this in mind.

Update The jig pictures in the bentley manual were a big help in making the jigs and the trannies are no problem to get apart .I have 4 supplier including T-Holf of Raleigh NC. But I will start with the Bug Stop .

That's cool Barry; maybe we could learn a thing or two about those that way. Those Porsche transaxles seem to have their own secret magic.

Barry,

If you are serious into to transmission repair you need to get a catalog from Erco, if you don't already have it.

Regarding "duplication original 356 gearing".....not certain I would recommend that. Gearing for our cars is very dependent upon weight of the car, how it will be driven, i.e. drag, casual street driving only, autocross, road racing, hillclimbing, drifting, smokey burnouts, or a combination of 2 or more of the above. Also, of even more critical nature is the engine itself...how much torque does it develop? At what RPM does it develop its torque? Is the torque band "wide" or "narrow"? Do you want all 4 gears spaced closely together for a narrow torque band? Or maybe the bottom 3 for accelleration and 4th as a road gear?

What RPM do you want at cruising speeds? i.e. 70? Do you require LSD? Other things that come into play are tires, diameter in particular....

Transmissions need be set up for the engine and intended use, not for how someone else geared something...a transmission geared for a stock 90 hp 356 engine is not going to serve well a 2332 that develops 200hp and 200 pound feet of torque.....

Thank you Jim. I apprecate the warning. And yes I know that no 2 engines or cars have the same needs.

Any info on the 356 engines would also help me developing a power curve chart for all of them as well as Type 1s2s3s4s which i think i allready have most the specs of can be used for comparison.
All of the gear setups will give clues as to what works best with what . stroke and bore and car weight Im hoping this may help me custom my own setups.

Do you have a contact phone or web contact for Erco? I have Macko Distributors an Transtar. Makco carries many vw parts. and a couple more.

The bad news is All Mr Vestal wants to do is recondison trannys for customers and not internet sells. Im rying to change his mind.

My question now is anyone doing this on the east coast and is there enough market to go around.

Barry,

Erco
9880 Indiana Ave #26
Riverside, CA 92503
phone 909-689-4430

they have a catalog of more than 50 pages of mostly transmission related stuff, dozens and dozens of VW gear sets, as well as other hard to get parts. They also make rims for racing and a number of unusual things. I don't think they have a web site.....

good luck,

Jim

Thank you, thank you, thank you , I have had no luck at all finding those folks. I'd say your correct about no web site.

Jim I think you may have saved me a terrable fate Working in textile until retirement or sanitarium. Time flys ,,indeed



Bill? I guess thats a comlement.

Old fart or old yeller fart, who cares It the green ones you need to run from!!

Jim!

They have changed the area codes it is now 1-951-689-4430
they also list another number 1 951 689 4327. Could be the fax