Anyone with Crank fired ignition?

My Mallory may be salvageable, but if not, I'm considering a crank fired ignition system. One that interests me is the Megajolt lite Jr. from Boost Engineering. http://www.boostengineering.net/product_p/vwedismjljkitblack.htm
Is anyone using this ignition system, or something like it?
thanks
Ron

Danny Pip will be along shortly to jump on this thread.....He runs Mega Jolt on his Spyder, and swears by it instead of at it.....Several other people I know run these systems and all love them after they get them set up properly..(not a large deal)

looks complicated to me

Well, Bob, if you can put together a Speedster and solder, you can get this done too. Which I think Ron can, he seems up to it. Boost Engineering sells a trigger wheel for type1, or you can make your own like I did. I machined an OE Ford Escort wheel to fit my 5" dry sump pulley. The rest is just wiring and soldering, taping and heat shrinking. The new Megajolt 2 is due out soon, doesn't require an EDIS module. You can also buy version4 now in preassembled and tested versions, either TPS or MAP sensor. Here's a link to my installation:

http://www.autosportlabs.org/viewtopic.php?t=1753

Any questions, feel free to ask, Ron.

I also have a Mallory Hyfire6, used, if you're interested.

Why do I need this? What are the benefits over my current ignition system?
Troy

"why do I need this?" You might not need it. Then again, if more accurate timing is something you want then this is an excellent solution for a fair number of people. Depending upon what any engine has for a distributor (conventional style) there is always some degree of sloppiness in the timing advance and retard. Sometimes it is mechanical advance, sometimes vacuum advance, sometimes both in some distributors.

There is slop in the gear train to the distributor, there is wear in the linkages, be it mechannical or vacuum, all these can be seen with a good timing light or good scope set up. It is not uncommon to see several degrees timing variation with even an "improved" distributor. To what degree these anomalies affect your engine also depends on your state of tune, carburetion, cam style, and a lot of other things.

Running a near stock configuration 1600cc engine, driven modestly and not concerning ones self with maximum gas mileage, I am not thinking a crank fire would be of much use. but, on the other hand how many of us fit that criteria? Almost none of us....

I have a new MSD 6AL electronic ignition with the MSD distributor (the 3rd I have owned) and frankly I am not happy with it at all. I am looking to go to crank fire very soon.... it can't be worse....and Danny has had much better results, and that is all the encouragement I need.

Danny, thanks for the offer and the link to your install. Also, thanks for the 'heads-up' on the newer version. Probably worth the wait.
Jim, I no long have much faith in any MSD products. Heck, I thought my Mallory was bulletproof, but there seems to be a fair amount of problems with the newer ones.
I'm thinking a crank fired system would go good with my fuel injection set-up.
Ron

I'm running megajolt on my T4

pretty slick to change the ignition timing while the engine is running (real time) and see what it does / how it sounds / where the power peaks.

it's not that hard to build your own ignition module, wire in the EDIS setup and install the trigger wheel and VR sensor. actually making the VR bracket was the hardest part.

do you need it? No.

do you need a 356 speedster? No.

On my car, my 009 was all over the place. My car would ping and I was afraid it would destroy itself. You could set the timing but it would vary +/- 5 degrees at 3000, not good for getting max horsepower. That was initially what prompted me to go to this. The Megajolt is accurate to 1/10 of one degree per revolution.

The only dizzy that would fit was the 009, all the other aftermarket ones are larger in diameter. I have a 911 fan/shroud, so that's why.

The other advantage to the crank fire is dwell time. The spark is simply fatter as in my example, two coils are being used instead of one, in a wasted spark configuration. This means my two coils are working as hard at 6000 rpm as yours are working at 3000. Just imagine coil-on-plug, with 4 individual coils. Oh, yeah, EDIS is good to over 9000 rpm, good enough for me!

As you all know, a CD(MSD) box only does multiple spark up to 3000 rpm, after that it is single. So I get a nice fat spark all the way up to redline, plus infinite control of the curve(not so with springs). Also, I get an adjustable load axis, which means I can dial up extra advance at part throttle to get better mileage.

Also, I have temperature compensation hooked up to a cylinder head temp sensor. I add extra advance after startup, which tapers off as it warms up. This way, the cranky, chokeless Webers have been tamed to idle at a decent speed on those COLD mornings.

Also, I have the hard-cut rev limiter installed, it is solid state, reliable, and cheap. Plus infinitely adjustable. And the final touch, you know those three unused red lights on your combi gauge? They are wired in as a linear shift light, close, closer, shift dummy!

Good stuff you guys!
RonO

Troy:


Many, many of us (including me, for now) are running Bosch or Bosch knock-off "009" distributors, simply because "everyone is using one". In reality, and after I've messed around with maybe a dozen of them over the past ten years, they're about two steps above junk, but they're almost the best thing available for the money (i.e.; they're comparatively cheap in two dimensions; cost and quality)

My experience with the "009" (and I hope Larry Jowdy steps in here, if he has similar insights to offer) tells me that (a.) the advance curve starts to ramp up later than needed, (b.) the peak advance comes on way too late and, (c.) the advance "curve" is way raggedy - not a smooth curve at all, but more of a closely-coupled, saw-toothed affair approximating the desired curve.

Experience also tells me that there is more than a little mechanical variation, too, i.e.; there is a lot of slop from the distributor drive shaft to the spring/pall platform, to the springs and weights and so forth. What this causes is a LOT of variation not only in sequential power curves (no two power runs are precisely the same), but in the SAME power curve. Think of this as static in a radio signal: You still hear the music, but it's scratchy.

Now....wouldn't it be cool to completely eliminate that nasty bit of sloppiness??
Wouldn't it be way cool to be able to know precisely the angle of the crankshaft at all times within 1/100'th of a degree (especially when a typical "009" distributor is lucky to get accuracy within 3 degrees) and be able to set the firing of your spark at that accuracy and expect it to stay within a tolerance of +/- 1/10'th of a degree?
Wouldn't it be cool to be able to vary the timing curve to exactly match the characteristics of your fuel delivery system at all loads and do it dynamically as conditions change?
Wouldn't it also be cool to then play with the spark - not only the timing of when it fires, but the duration of the flare as well?

Well.....That's what a crank-fired ignition can do for you.

If you want a simple example, then my guess is that 85+% of the T-1 engines running a "009" have a mid-rpm "dead spot" such that when you stomp on the gas at about 50-60 mph, the engine first stumbles and then "catches" and takes off. Many attribute this to a weak accelerator pump stroke and compensate with a stronger gas squirt from the pump, when the reality is that there isn't enough spark advance at that engine speed to provide proper fuel/air burn. Going to a different distributor (like a Mallory) or to a crank-fired ignition eliminates that dead spot (and also provides a much smoother-running engine at all operating speeds).

My last truck (Ford F150) had separate coils for each spark plug. This is becoming the norm for all gas engines because crank-fired (and computer-controlled) ignitions are just that much better than mechanically-controlled (i.e.; "009") versions.

Now let's see what others think about this.

gn

Another point not hit on here that should be mentioned is that most crank fires have or are capable of a waste spark (e.g. Danny's system with the two coil pack).

On carbureted engines with an aggressive cam profile, waste spark is your new best friend. It will clear the idle right up. Doesn't do anything noticeable at mid range and high RPM, but at idle/low - makes a world of difference in how clean and smooth your engine will run.

A crank fire is a concise system. It doesn't wander through the RPM range. It remains in time indefinately. They are simple to wire - even i can do it.

Besides - it looks awesome!!!!

angela

I'm sold!
Ron

How does Lane's new Pertronix ignition compare to the crank fired ignition you guys are discussing? I would like to add a better performing ignition to my 2275cc this spring. Sorry for the hi-jack.

Daves' old Pertronix is interested in the answer to that question too. Anybody?

If the Pertronix ignition is in a Bosch 009, then it's a crapshoot. If the Pertronix distributor is made better than the 009, then you'll have less scatter. If the slop is from the distributor drive and the crank gear, thyen you're still in the same boat. The ONLY thing a Pertronix points eliminator does is eliminate point wear, it doesn't increase the size or accuracy of the spark. That is a purely mechanical aspect of the whole process.

First, re-read my post up above to understand what's going on with a "009".

Now, take that same, basic, distributor design, but build it under more controlled conditions and tighten up the tolerances such that you get an accuracy of about +/- 1 to 2 degrees (depending on parts used). That would make you twice as accurate as a "009" and the curve would be less "saw-toothed". In other words, make a better distributor that acts the way it should (and the way you would expect it to). STILL, the crank-fired system is working at +/- less than 1/10'th of a degree. Pretty damn accurate and CONSISTENT compared to even a Pertronics.

Now, apply a better model to the advance curve, beginning the ramp sooner, make it more reactive to increases in RPM and make it reach full advance at about 2250 rpm (often lower, like 1,750, but it's easily adjusted to where you want it) and getting to a full advance of whatever you set it to (by positioning the distributor correctly for your engine characteristics or messing with the advance springs).

Lastly, use a combination of advance springs that are tailored to your engine and driving characteristics (they give you (or you can order) springs of different rates that can be easily interchanged in a trial-and-replace method to "tune" it to what you want).

It will begin to approximate (in a very loose fashion) what a crank-fired system will do, but as good as a Pertronics is compared to even a real Bosch 009, the crank-fired system is way better AND far more easily tuned (since tuning is all electronic).

OK?

BTW: the biggest change I've noticed in crank-fired systems (beyond the elimination of the "bog" when you accelerate) is a vastly improved idle, even with radical cam grinds.

gn

I just read some posts over at Megajolt(autosportlabs.com) and they got me thinking.

Newer cars have a lot better breathing plus years of combustion chamber shape research. These cars have a much wider tolerance for variation in timing, as in they run well over a wider range of ignition timing, without detonation. But the funny thing is that they often come with knock detection, and retard the timing accordingly no matter what crappy gas you put in the tank.

Then take our cars, originally a what, 25 hp design, evolved over the years to 60 hp. Then we take that and TRIPLE it! But in order to get that high output, we have to run them at the very ragged edge of detonation. If you dial back the timing 5 or 10 degrees, you don't get the performance. And we don't have knock sensing ignition control!

So this gets us back to the precision of crankfire; repeatable, accurate, adjustable, and FAT spark every single time, period. Crankfire lets you run right to the edge, but as safely as possible.

Pertronix, MSD, and Mallory distributors are a step in the right direction away from sloppy factory options, but not in the same league as crankfire.

If you stick a Pertronix or other brand point eliminator in your stock dizzy, you have only done just that, eliminate points.

Well I'm glad I asked! I love getting an edumacation ;-) on SOC!!!
Troy

My new Pertronix is one of their billet "Flamethrower" distributors, not an 009, and is a great improvement over the original 009 (with Pertronix sensor) that I had. I though about the crank fired idea, but I wanted a simple bolt-in solution. I'm quite happy with what I got, but the Megajolt is considered to be the top of the heap.

Dr. Evil and Gordon have hit both nails on the heads. I have MegaSquirt II, Ver. 3.0 running fuel and ignition. The crank fire is Edis-4. Here is a pic of the mock up stage of the wasted spark wheel bolted to my stock size aluminum pulley.

As I recall, the newest MegaSquirt ECU has knock sensing capability.

I will be replacing the individual intake runners with larger, single runners to eliminate some clearancing issues and reduce the possibility of intake vacuum leaks. The install was a little tight with the individual runners.

I read John's advice on aircooled.net, and his advice is excellent. The bottom line for a street motor is large stroke and conservative camshaft for gobs of torque, and low RPM for cool running, longevity and reliability. All of this translates into FUN. Crank fired ignition adds to smooth running. No points. In fact, no distributor. The FI install means no rich gas smell on cold start, no stumbles, smooth accel with no dead spots. MegaSquirt was not too difficult to install, but difficult for me configure due to my lack of good computer skills. Good thing that I have an engineer for a son. All of that computer stuff made my head hurt.

Just my $0.02.

Question on the sender : Is this read by magnets reading the teeth? Seems like this is a very interesting doohicky thingamabob!

Mike, VR is a variable reluctance sensor. It senses the presence or absence of ferrous metal, outputting an almost square wave signal, 0 to approx 2.5 volts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_reluctance_sensor

Got it, it's a permanent magnet... I was wondering if it was a beam cause that would be crappy! I understand now. When the teeth flyby it counts the spokes by way of permanent magnet, very basic and effective.

Simplicity RULES !!!! Keep it as simple as you can

i put in a compufire distributorless ignition system. this is a misnomer since it REQUIRES an 009 dizzy?! It is a multi-spark, multi-coil with pick-up inside the diz, Smoothed out low end but didn't seem to do much at higher RPMs, I wanna put in new plugs and gap em up from 45 to 50 mil as suggested in manual. Its neat using a timing light since it hits all over the place! Even tho it hooks up at the diz, instead of the crank, the timing seems fairly consistent prolly cuz its a fairly new one.

I've installed several of the Compu-fire units on my personal engines and on customer engines. They have always worked great for me.

It's been several years since I installed a unit but at that time, you also had to purchase a module to drive an electronic tachometer. Is this still the case????

William Dunn,

I sent a question to Compu-fire regarding their wording of "Disributorless Ignition"

Here's their reply:

"Hello Larry, "distributorless" refers to the fact that we are no
longer "distributing" SPARK.
A sensor must be some where and if it were on the crank pulley, it would be more vulnerable than inside your old distributor. The sensor in the distributor senses a spark location and the coil pack does the rest."

Hope this helps.
Compu-Fire

Seems to me that this is a play on words

Vulnerable to what? Marauding rodents?

A sensor inside a distributor is still subject to any inaccuracies that distirbutor may have. Plus, there's the drive slop, etc. I know its all minor but it adds up.

My BS meter is pegged! Compufire is a distributor with no cap. They are using the distributor body as a location for a spark event trigger. It also relies on the distributor you are running for advance curve. So basically you get the dwell time/spark saturation of a wasted spark setup with the same precision as whatever distributor you are using.

So an improvement over a cap/rotor single coil setup but not THE answer.

Brian, I love it, "vulnerable" to what? That was pretty funny!

OK, don't kill the messenger. I agree, it's mis-labeled and probably no one except for me has asked them to step up to the plate and explain. (Obviously their explanation has many gaping holes)

The pro's of a compufire is that it has it's own coil pack and it also has waste spark if I remember correctly. It's con's are that it rely's on an 009 distributor. The 009 has some inherent problems but, under most conditions they work well.

I can say this about the compufire. It has performed admirably in my own engines and those that I have installed in customers vehicles.

Crank fired ignition with is obviously better but not everyone has the talent or money to install such a unit.

really - it's not hard or expensive to install. it just takes time.

parts can be sourced used (or new).

I'm putting one on the 2.4 911S engine that's going into my IM (someday...). Its easier than a distributor/points set up for sure and a lot less wiring than a CD unit. Almost looks too simple....

Came across this post..

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/437273-using-coil-pack-ignition.html

Especially interesting is the description by one poster where he uses coil packs from a motorcycle that attaches directly to the plugs and therefore eliminates plug wires, low voltage wires from an Electromotive pack with the the coils removed to fire the system.

Interesting read if you want to play around with these types of systems.

As I mentioned in my original post, I plan on going with the Boost Engineering kit. I'll let you all know how it goes. The plan is to install the crank fired ignition and CB fuel injection, spend some time dialing everything in, and then drive many thousands of miles without any adjustments (insert laughter here).
Ron

Compufire is $300 on their website, mine cost $160, which included a new aftermarket coilpack. I am not sure if you could get the Compufire for much cheaper than $270.

Brian, check out Megajolt 2 for your S motor, you should be able to go coil-on-plug I would think.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Porsche-911-Crank-trigger-pulley-adapter-kits_W0QQitemZ7924730471QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item1d859ca67

This crank-trigger/pulley is $280, but will bolt right on. A set of coils and the Megajolt 2 and you're done. I am lucky to have access to a lathe, so I will be putting something together for myself.

OK, Dan......

Everyone's sitting around in 10 degree weather dreaming about getting back on the road this Spring. Me....I'm spending the Winter recuperating from Surgery and won't be doing much of anything for a couple of months, but for the rest of these folks, they could be spending their time sourcing the parts for a Megajolt system (or whatever is state-of-the-art) and getting it installed before the season starts, especially if it's mostly a bolt-in.

How about a parts list and part sources for everyone so we can duplicate what you've successfully done without decimating our wallets??

I would LOVE to get rid of my tight-but-less-than-ideal 009, and I could have the stuff ready to take North to Pearl right after Carlisle (or maybe even install it AT Carlisle!!)

I would want the whole enchilada: Positioning pulley (I can't believe they're asking $280 USD for something worth $50 bucks), coil packs (will Ford Focus ones work, or those from an F-150? Got a bunch of those kicking around...), sensors, ECU and whatever else I need.

What'cha think??

gn

Gordon, trigger wheel are $50 or so. As long as you can accurately mount it to a pulley you can save some bucks. I have an extra but its for a 911 SC (2 eblt pulley)

I'm going with the Electomotive system for now. Picked up a used one set up for 911 complete with a nice set of plug wires for decent price last year. Clewett Engineering was very helpful....thanks Steve.

Gordon, for a type1, I sourced everything from a early 90s Ford Escort. I got everything from one car, including a TPS, for $60. I ended up getting the trigger wheel, VR sensor, EDIS box, Coilpack, wires, and throttle position sensor all from the same car. I also got all the corresponding plugs and as much wire as you can get from the donor's harness. I ended up using some shielded wire from a Subaru for the VR sensor. I have some left.

I then bought a new (unneeded) Accel coil. I took the metal mounts that everything bolted to. I then fabbed up all that I had to with a little cutting,welding, grinding, drilling, and painting. You will need to plug your dizzy hole, I used the base of an old VW dizzy and turned it into my oil filler.

I bought the Megajolt3 from Brent Picasso and all the parts from Digikey.com. He has a parts list, but I think he will ship V4 with a parts kit, it is pretty much all surface mount parts now. Mine was all discrete through-hole components.

A little lathe work, mount the VR and TPS sensors, make the harness, and then fire it up. Then the tweaking fun begins.